Listening to Lowdowners' recommendations

[Graham56]

I've just started a beginner's jazz workshop, but to be honest I know very little about the music and rarely listen to it. I joined the workshop for two reasons - firstly the tutor is Paul Westwood, and secondly I reckon the more I understand Jazz the better my bass playing, in any genre, will be.

 

But I need to hear more jazz, so off I went to a local record shop looking for something to give me some background. And a confusing array of stuff there was too!

 

But I saw Miles Davis "A Kind of Blue".

 

"Ah," I thought. "Quite a few of the Lowdowners go on about that one - let's try it".

 

What an ear-opener!

 

It's cool, creative, and still manages to be accessible. It's one of the best records I've heard in years, and hasn't been off my player for the last week.

 

So thanks to all that recommended it. And as far as I am concerned, those "What's in your CD player now?" threads have turned out to be really useful.

 

And whadd'ya reckon - Bitches Brew next?

 

Cheers

 

Graham

[ClarkW]

I personally don't find the songs on Bitches' Brew as entertaining and educational as Kind of Blue. But for a jazz bass player, I would recommend anything with Ray Brown or Charles Mingus. Ray Brown put out a pretty good CD called "Some of my best friends are guitarists" that I enjoyed quite a bit.

 

Also, if you want to ease yourself into jazz with some downright cool music, check out the Modern Jazz Quartet. I'm a big fan of their music. Excellent vibraphone work!

[g.]

>I personally don't find the songs on Bitches' Brew as entertaining and educational as Kind of Blue

 

I'm not going to work too hard at coming up with the most apt analogy because they usually end up having falt tires anyway. But one period of Miles is just as "entertaining" as another - they are just different movies.

 

And one period of Miles is just as "educational" as another - they are just schools with different curriculum.

 

Pearls before swine ; }

[miston]

I watched a 2 hour biography about Miles last Sunday on Bravo, and was just completely mesmorized. I don't listen to jazz at all really, but I like all kinds of music.

 

What I really was surpised is that I found his earlier periods (more traditional jazz?) just as entertaining as the more rock/funk periods of the 60's and 70's.

 

I definately want to check out "Kind of Blue", "Miles Ahead", and "Bitches Brew".

 

And I recognized a bass jam that bassist Dave Schools of Widespread Panic does to be of Miles Davis origin!

[davebrownbass]

Most of the musicians who've worked with the great Miles Davis called it "going to college."

 

The key word you said (to me) is "accessible." Like some of the music of Mozart, Bach, Beethoven...there is a visceral pleasure in certain Miles music that appeals to the novice listener.

 

I would vote for "Sketches of Spain" (that's the first CD I ever bought.) I would also recommend "The Birth of the Cool."

 

While you are at it, read his excellent autobiography.

 

As you are exploring jazz, I'd definitely get Bill Evans "Live at the Village Vanguard" if you can find it. I think it is now released as "The Villiage Vanguard Sessions." Anyway, get the Bill Evans trio with Scott LaFaro...to continue this jazz exploration.

 

I thing the Modern Jazz Quartet is also must listening. Taking a step ahead, get Charlie Parker and John Coltrane.

 

You may think I'm stuck in the 40's and 50's. You'd be right! It is the same with symphonic music...if you were in my music history class, I'd definitely teach you to understand the genre with music from the 18th century before I expose you to Charles Ives, Gustav Mahler, or Dmitri Shostakovitch. And then, we get to the Alban Berg, Schoenberg school. And we STILL haven't gotten to Krystof Penderecki, Phillip Glass or John Cage. Lygeti. Crumb.

 

Of course, there's visceral pleasure in 20th Century classical music as well...Debussy, Rachmaninoff (some would argue he is an anachronism), Stravinsky, Britton all write music that is gorgeous and accessible, even while being experimental.

 

In the same way, there is more modern jazz that remains lovely. Try Oregon. Tuck and Patti (some would argue.)

[SteveC]

Dave - wouldn't that be a "Giant Step" to Coltrane?

[davebrownbass]

Steve, of course you are right.

 

And you get a special Post of the Day, for making the most obvious pun imaginable!

[g.]

Connect the Bass in Jazz dots one way, spending some time where Jimmy Garrison made his mark, and traveling along, you might end up at Matt Garrison . This guy can play and write with the best of them, is doing more than trying to become the best composite clone of past masters (see Wynton Marsalis), knows the roots of jazz in a way that those who subscribe to Ken Burn's debatably expurgated version are not likely to get.

 

Jazz isn't just a museum piece.

[...]

Originally posted by miston:

And I recognized a bass jam that bassist Dave Schools of Widespread Panic does to be of Miles Davis origin!

Let me guess... "So What". It seems every non-jazz bass player cops that riff when trying to "be more jazz".

 

Originally posted by ClarkW:

I personally don't find the songs on Bitches' Brew as entertaining and educational as Kind of Blue.

Apples and nuclear fission... two completely different things, man. Both are brilliant for what they are and it's very difficult to compare the two otherwise; unless you're just giving your personal preference of one vs. the other.

 

Originally posted by SteveC:

Dave - wouldn't that be a "Giant Step" to Coltrane?

That was horrible.

 

Originally posted by greenboy:

Jazz isn't just a museum piece.

Indeed.

[miston]

It seems every non-jazz bass player cops that riff when trying to "be more jazz".

Well, what riff would you expect a non-jazz bass player to play?

 

And he wasn't trying to "be more jazz"! He was just jamming.

[...]

Originally posted by miston:

It seems every non-jazz bass player cops that riff when trying to "be more jazz".

Well, what riff would you expect a non-jazz bass player to play?

 

And he wasn't trying to "be more jazz"! He was just jamming.

Chameleon...

[g.]

Schools Rules

 

But back to jazz ; }

[dcr]

Originally posted by greenboy:

Jazz isn't just a museum piece.

Hmm...I know I'm supposed to agree. I sorta do, but...well, it was definitely much less of a museum piece about 60 years ago, right? When people danced to it rather than studying it at conservatory?

 

 

That said, I have to second Graham's thought about "Kind of Blue," which is surely one of the most moving albums of the last century, along with "Blue Train."

[g.]

Yawn. Wake me up when you are ready to discuss jazz.

[dcr]

Oh. I knew I didn't belong in the club. Sorry I disagreed. I failed the aptitude test; I guess it's true: "if you want to be a good bass player you will have to bow to the concensus here of what is WRONG, and what is RIGHT."

 

I also forgot The Rule: one Self-Proclaimed Dissenter per forum.

[groovyjazzyfunky]

Honestly, "Kind of Blue" does relatively nothing for me. I've tried, but I've never understood the fascination with it. Miles was undoubtedly a musical genius, but this particular album just doesn't move me like it seems to move a lot of people.

[bc_dup1]

Some good "beginners' jazz"

 

1 "Somethin' Else" - Cannonball Adderley. This is a Miles Davis record in all but name. More accessible that any of the records under his own name. Definitive version of "Autumn Leaves".

 

2 "Blues and the Abstract Truth" - Oliver Nelson.

 

3 "Strange Place for Snow" - Esbjorn Svensson Trio. Jazz purists will sneer at the (very subtle) use of rock rhythms and electronic effects but this is sublime music. Very accessible.

 

4 "Blues and Roots" - Charles Mingus at his most accessible.

 

5 "Filles de Kilimanjaro" - Miles Davis. Underrated transitional srarting to move towards

"Bitches Brew" territory. Conventional wisdom is "In a silent way" or "Jack Johnson" are more accessible than "Bitches Brew" but that wasn't my experience - I love BB but can't get up much enthusiasm for JJ or IASW.

 

6 "These are the Vistas" The Bad Plus - like EST this is trio jazz played with a post-rock sensibility & purists will sneer. But I think it stands up as quality jazz and I think Reid Andersen is a great bass player.

[The Guy]

Honestly, Doo Bop is my favorite Miles album. Of course, I haven't really listened to Bitches Brew or 'A Kind Of Blue'. We'll see.

 

So back to jazz, varied opinions allowed.

 

On another note, I heard this CD with this Thelonious Monk song on it. I really liked it. Anyone know where I can get some more of this, or recommend some good Monkification?

 

Mark

Rock

4

Life

[g.]

The point with Miles, DCR, is that he went through a lot of periods recreating his musical identity, and they all have worthy examples of study and all are rewarding intellectually and "emotionally".

[g.]

DCR, further point. I couldn't decide if your "dancing" remark supported your connected (or was it?) bit on Miles. After all, Bitches Brew put Miles into the popular ear of the day - electric instruments, "rock" rhythms, emphasis on a different style of mixing, etc ... It was a period when Bob Dylan angered folkie purists by crossing over with an electric band, too, I think ; }

 

In a Silent Way, or Water Babies, or On The Corner, or others show Miles cross-pollinating or referring to popular music of the time (hey - the guy was diggin' FUNK fer chrissakes!) without compromising the improvisational nature of jazz. And look at the wild playpen of players and leaders and writers he was grooming - his bands, like FZ's were great schools!

 

Myself, I think it's "cool" to see a player who came up in Parker/Gillespie times find ways around his own self-professed limitations to find his own niches - over and over again - and to attract larger audiences to jazz without pandering or losing his edge. I'd say that he largely embodied the spirit of jazz because he didn't pigeonhole it.

[bc_dup1]

Yes, all of Miles's periods are worth listening to and I own more albums by him than any other artist. I used to have a bit of resistance to the 70s electric Miles but that was because I started listening to the wrong albums. I love all that stuff now, "Pangaea", "Agharta" and "On the Corner" included. The Bill Laswell remix of 70's Miles, "Panthalassa" is also great. I still can't get up much enthusiasm for the 80's stuff with Marcus Miller, but it's at least worth checking out and of course the bass playing is very tasty. My favourite Miles band used to be the one with Coltrane but nowadays I much prefer the series of albums he did with Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Tony Williams and Ron Carter, in the studio and the "Live at the Plugged Nickel" sessions. Everything he did with Gil Evans is great.

[g.]

I dunno, I never heard a BAD Monk album. Monk's Dream is one of my faves. There are some Greatest Of dealies with a lot of important cuts on them. Check it out.

 

A modern jazz sensibility, eight-string gutarist(bassist) Charlie Hunter, has been in an electric band called TJ Kirk that plays the music of Thelonius, James Brown, and Rahsaan Roland Kirk. It rules, it's jazz, it's modern - it wide open and FONKY!

[g.]

bc,

 

Gil Evans, yes! The Miles Connection. Talk about a guy who could arrange for big band, and spotlight soloists effectively. Gil brought big bands up through the swing era into bop, post-bop, cool - and right up into slated to be collaborating with Jimi Hendrix. I think Hendrix died a couple weeks before they were to get together. A real shame, because if any big band arranger could do it with total veracity it would have likely had to be him or maybe Don Ellis.

 

Jimi Hendrix in my ears was born for jazz anyway, could have made some nice records with Miles or anyone else who wasn't mired in the past. I wish I could have heard him dueling with Allan Holdsworth in a Tony Williams Lifetime, or hanging with Stanley Clarke or Jaco or something... I could see Hendrix and Gil Evans doing a Tribute to Wes Montgomery, for that matter...

[g.]

Just my dull uniformed opinion ; }, but of all the "swing era" big bands, the two most important that nobody should be without some understanding and lessons from, are DUKE ELLINGTON, and COUNT BASIE.

 

Seemingly on opposite ends of the spectrum, one a writer's band with layers of near-decadent sophistication that leveraged individual soloist styles to great heights, and the other a brawling, swinging aggregate that often played from head charts (players often rolling their own from basic blueprints), also with some godly soloists...

 

These big bands are the basis for anyone wanting to do a cool big band in ANY period/style, and pretty much any big band since then that has amounted to anything has roots in one or both, because these are the feet the best arrangers have studied at - regardless of any appearance of modernist inclinations some may have at the surface.

 

Basie's "bass player" was a composite personality that also included guitarist Freddie Green - talk about LOCKED IN! Walter Page set the tone for this kind of work. I don't know if any band swung harder, and these guys were a large part of the reason why. Small group Basie is also worth getting into, basically with subsets of his band doing the honors.

 

Ellington's notable bassist was Jimmy Blanton, a god among bassists. Solos! Big tone! A walking monster who could deal with Ellington's harmonic sophistication. Check him and the fine players of Ellington's stable out in some of the after-hours smaller band sessions too!

[bc_dup1]

If you are looking for Ellington stuff you can't do better than start with this:

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005MOCT/ref=m_art_li_2/104-5089461-3791911?v=glance&s=music

 

$21 for four cds of some of the greatest music of the last century. Listen to the last pre-Blanton track and then the 1st Blanton track and you hear a bass-playing revolution taking place. Blanton was about 20 at the time - scary.

[g.]

Heh, I have most of that material and more besides on VINYL (Duke Ellington Carnegie Hall '43, etc), it was some of my jazz self-edumedication ; } ...East St Louis Toodle-Oo indeedy! It must have been something to be black and tour back in those days...

 

Ellington's later recordings that today might be called Praise and Worship today are wide and interesting too. But my fave late Ellington is probably his 70TH BIRTHDAY CONCERT, with many of his original stable still doing it real and strong, Victor Gaskin on bass.

 

I have some Basie from before he died too, again, some of the old stable involved. Both bands have lived beyond the death of their leaders, and some of that work is top-notch too.

[bc_dup1]

Heh, I have most of that material and more besides on VINYL

If you think about it, these cds clock in at about 70 mins, so the box set is probably the equivalent of at least 6 or 7 vinyl albums. For $21!! How much of a bargain is that?

[g.]

Is killa!

 

Merely remarking, merely stating ; }

[davebrownbass]

Yep...in the interest of brevity, I didn't bring up the Gil Evans story, his friendship with Miles, naming his son Miles.

 

But it is what I was referring to in the "Sketches of Spain" recommendation. Gil Evans created a beautiful texture that perfectly spotlights Miles voice.