Timmy C Article

[bassaddik]

not hated at all- it is your right to like whatever you like!

every post here is just a reflection of our opinions- you gotta love Democracy- living in dictatorship for the first 10 yers of my life (Cuba) i can appreciate that more than anyone!

and here's one more opinion, i just saw the footage of Tim C 's MTV awards antics, an i will say this.. the guy is a total idiot! i'd say it to his face - act like an ass- be completely musically uneducated ( im with Jeremy C again, by the standards by which our peers are measured , he cant play at all )

and be famous and get on the cover of BP! gotta love it!

[doc taz]

Originally posted by CMDN:

quote:

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Oh yeah, nobody's saying the guy can't play...

 

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I said it once before, Erik, and now I'll quote myself:

 

quote:

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By the standards of the world in which I live, he can't play at all.

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Ooops.... My bad.

JEREMY'S saying Timmy C can't play.

 

I'm sure he's losing sleep over that right now. Poor bastard. Hahah.

 

Seriously... I wonder what kinda great drugs he was taking when he climbed all over the set at that MTV awards show? He musta been feeling pretty good. I'd hate be in a band with a guy like him... even though he's good at what he does (but it's not playing, right Jer?), it'd be such a pain in the ass to be worried about what he was gonna do any any given time... make asinine statements in major music mags, act like a moron on a major music awards show... ugh.

"Do 30 takes just to get a song right... AARGH!

Get the f**k outta my studio, a**hole!" http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/icw/006.gif

 

That could be a quote from Buddy Rich, but it ain't! Just made it up.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Originally posted by C.Alexander Claber:

Is this a compliment in the US because in the UK it's a rather sarcastic insult...

 

Alex

actually, i was using it in the UK sense. i was unaware of any US variations on its meaning.

 

i have a lot of respect for both Jeremy and Adrian, and for their contributions to this community, and i figured it would have been futile to try to explain my views while trying to maintain that level of respect.

 

i think it is well within both of their views of playing bass to defend the necessity of knowing music in order to enhance bass playing. and i don't necessarily dissent with or dismiss them on that.

 

however, i think it was condescending and largely envious for both of them to dismiss tim commerford for not knowing music to the degree that they do.

 

we all choose our lives and our careers. i'm an engineer because i chose it over being a musician. that does not make being an engineer better or worse than being a musician. i understand the desire to make so much money that i don't have to worry about it and that all my desires are attainable. i understand how frustrating it is for someone to reach that level in my chosen field, especially if i feel i am a superior engineer. but it's not my responsibility to question their trajectories, and it's especially not my part to be envious of money or success.

 

maybe it's lamentable for tim commerford to be rich and famous and known as a bass player. or maybe a lot of musicians got into mingus or miles because timmy C got them passionate about bass. i think it's irrelevant.

 

he does play bass, he is famous for it, and ultimately it only really matters if you live up to your own standards.

 

robb.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

He had a lot of nerve to put down session players like Chris Chaney, a versatile player who can play rings around him and was chosen for the reunion of a much more interesting and influential band than either of the over-hyped bands he has been in.

I've read this article a few times now and I though I can understand how you're managing to misinterpret what Timmy said about Chris Chaney I believe what you've done is just that - misinterpret. Take a step back, ignore your belief that Timmy can't play (though he's pretty deep in the pocket for a non-player) and re-read that paragraph.

 

My interpretation of what he's saying is that not many people are good enough to do what Chris Chaney has done - i.e. not only be a session player but be able to become part of a successful band whilst still being a 'session cat' (for instance Darryl Jones is not part of the Stones he 'just' plays bass for them) and furthermore he comments that Chris plays so well in the band and puts his stamp so firmly on them that he really sounds like an integral part.

 

Chris has pulled that off successfully, so he gets Timmy's respect but he cautions against most bass players taking that route if being part of a rock band is your aim. (JPJ did a pretty good job of going from session cat to rock band member - wonder if Timmy knows that?)

 

Enough.

 

Alex

[dcr]

So did David Hungate. And if Chuck Rainey & Tom Barney don't sound "integral" with Steely Dan, then I don't know the meaning of the word. We could name others, too.

 

In fact, now that I think about it...what was Tim's worry, again? I'm no expert, but I'd think that if a guy made his living by walking into studios & being told, "OK, here's what we do, & you've got until that light comes on to figure out how to glue it all together," & he can actually do it, then he'd probably have some idea about how to adapt himself to a regular band, no? I see the point that you want all the members of a band to form an organic unity, something that takes on a life & a character of its own; but how would the fact one of them had been a session player be a disadvantage? I guess I don't get it.

[bassaddik]

rebuttal-

i will NEVER be the musician i would like to be- i think that is key in my striving to be better everyday. its a war out here if you re trying to make living playing bass- the bigger your guns, the better chance you have to stay employed- so , as afr as being satisfied with the player i am- it will never really happen-

 

as for the jealousy thing.. its funny, i am often told that i shouldnt let certain things bother me, especially here in vegas, where its really a small town and everyone knows each other - so if anyone rocks the boat, it gets around quickly and you're labeled difficult. I always get a kick when somebody calmly says " oh, its no big deal, roll with the punches, water off a duck's back, dont let it bother you, etc." invariable, these "calm " people , when faced with an injustice or feeling wronged somehow, themselves go into a rage.. what happened to " stay calm?"

in fact, i dont envy Timmy C and if someone said i could be him, i would pass on the offer, its not my thing.. but i will admit that i feel it is one of life's unfair tricks when there are so many great players out here struggling and I read in BP mag that for exaample , the bassist with U2 learned to play WHILE recording the first platinum record- God bless him! he was very fortunate- but i would be lying if i didnt say i felt that was unfair to other who have sacrificed... fortunes smiles on the few.. am i bitter because i am not a millionaire? no, i somehow always knew i wouldnt be? but everytime i deal with a flaky situation, no shortage of them here, it does annoy me that people who act like fools, dont really know a damn thing about music, etc.. are enjoying successful careers as players..

if you read my earlier post- i did say i am not familiar with his playing , so i dont comment on that- i am going by what he said- and though it cool if he doesnt have jazz chops or cant read notation- i still think its a bit of an outrage that he is so successful without knowing how to play to chord changes.. maybe he is deep in the pocket- i hope so.

robb.- i am not sure i fully understand your post- i have never beeen one to condascend, you seem to understand Jeremy and my feelings, but not fully why we feel that way- i can only speak for myself- please know that i never put myself on a pedestal and i am very humble about my playing. and i am a fan of many musicians who dont read music- i read, but its not my calling card- its just something i chose to work on,, and it has helped me immensely. but i know one can be a great bassist and non-reader- however, again- to say you dont even know what to play over a simple progression - well- that is just a bit extreme.

I cannot help how i feel anymore than i can help if someone thinks im condascending and jealous- TimmyC's music is not my bag- i ant play like him- im sure it cool. he fits his role. And i guess acting up is part of the image...if i did that i would never work in this town again.

you have your views and i respect them- i have mine and i cant help them-

i do not want to be Timmy- nor do i want his millions- but struggling with the business and trying to keep steady gigs had been life long for me- i am just being honest - sometimes i get tired of being politically correct-

and lastly- try to picture this- you are an enginner- you have worked hard to learn your craft- you know your mixes are good and you know how to record an intrument so it sounds its best- then some flavor of the month kid walks in and takes you chair- he doesnt know squat- he just got lucky and he might have been a dj or something- so now you are out- i wonder how understanding you might be towards that scenario- i have seen it happen many times-- i hope it doesnt happen to you- its a very shitty feeling-

i know , im ranting- maybe im even tripping!

not sure, but i am disenchanted with this business- that is true. So, bully on me!!

[bassaddik]

one more thing-

'however, i think it was condescending and largely envious for both of them to dismiss tim commerford for not knowing music to the degree that they do.'

that is way off base! and could be further from the truth.. i do not feel they should know as much as Jeremy or I because i dont know all that much at all! but come on, man- at least know what a major or minor chord is- and where c# is- is that too much?

[Tom Capasso]

Originally posted by robb.:

...i was unaware of any US variations on its meaning....robb.

This term has a definitive American meaning. It was used frequently by our 26th president, Theodore Roosevelt (who is an inspiration and often serves as my avatar).

 

From Merriam-Webster:

 

1 : EXCELLENT, FIRST-RATE -- often used in interjectional expressions

 

Tom

[Ren.]

Originally posted by Scootdog:

I feel like a goof defending Fieldy, but how many of us can say that our sound (no matter how absurd to some ears), helped to define the sound of a band that was/is a huge influence and sold millions of records?

 

I'm sure he CAN play like a "regular" bassist, but his style really is a huge part of their sound.

 

Okay, I am now hated by everyone...

I have to agree with you somehow on that. We have to give fieldy some credit. His crappy sound is a trademark in the succesful band that he plays in. Does he still sucks? Hell Yeah!

 

And no, nobody hate you here, bro!

[dcr]

Leave it to you, Tom, to make the Roosevelt connection! Bully, just bully! (If you haven't seen "Arsenic and Old Lace," you MUST.)

 

I see Adrian's point here. This isn't sour grapes. I don't even think the point is that it's unfair. As I see it, the point is that the music business is pretty weird in how it rewards merit, & that's really unfortunate. But that's the business, so get used to it. That's not very cheery, but it sounds right to me.

 

In my field, my #1 output is written nonfiction. Sometimes I pick up a paper that rests on some pretty boneheaded assumptions, & is simply not good enough. And sometimes that paper is by someone pretty famous in the field. Am I just being envious when I'm annoyed at that kind of thing? I don't think so. People in my field should live up to a certain standard of scholarship, & when they don't, the others SHOULD be annoyed. It's because we love our field that such things annoy us, and ought to.

 

Why shouldn't it be the same with artists, such as musicians? Please don't tell me it's because art doesn't/shouldn't have standards of excellence. Of course it does (e.g. if it didn't, anti-art wouldn't be possible, such as dadaism in painting & sculpture). Art is skillful productivity, & skill has standards. It's possible to do a better or worse job. It's possible to be more skilled or less skilled.

 

Also, it's one thing to be annoyed with the art, & another to be annoyed with the artist. Someone could love RATM, & even Tim's artistic output with RATM, but deny that Tim counts as an artist. There's no inconsistency there. People can & do generate the output of a skill on occasion, without having that skill in the strict sense; I can learn some Japanese sentences perfectly & fluently, as if I had that skill, but still not be a skilled speaker of Japanese; and even a lousy carpenter can make a really good table sometimes. (Check out Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics II.4.) The music business is just like that: you can sometimes put out a good disc, that sounds like it was played by skilled musicians, without being skilled musicians. And it's the output that brings professional success (if you're lucky), whether you've got the skill or not (although usually good output requires skill). This is precisely the reason why the music biz is so sloppy in how it rewards skill, as Adrian was saying. It is unfortunate. But that's the business. Lots of businesses are like that.

 

So why be annoyed by this sloppiness? The trouble is, even if this guy or that guy can make it in the field without having the skill, having the skill wane among practitioners is bad for the field as a whole. Things that are OK as exceptions aren't necessarily OK as general patterns or trends. So if a guy can make it in the field without the skill, good for him; but there IS still something to worry about.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by dcr:

Things that are OK as exceptions aren't necessarily OK as general patterns.

Screw the philosophy, dcr. You should come over to our camp and become a sociologist!

 

More on topic, I guess one of the reasons I respect Flea is that even though he's "made it" because of his membership in a successful band to which his playing contributes immensely, he did study music as a youth and tried his hand as a horn player. But, more importantly, he currently continues to try to learn more music theory, music history, etc. and values it as evidenced by his founding of a music school in Calif. I think there are other players like Flea who have found success even if they were originally not schooled as musicians or were unskilled in certain aspects of music (e.g., reading or playing over changes), but have used the fruits of that success to try to learn more, to study with skilled and knowledgeable musicians, to take some risks with their playing, and so on.

 

I refer you again to Ralph Ellison's most righteously excellent collection of essays (I started a thread about them last month) -- Living with Music. In one of his essays he makes the point that while it is important to learn technique, skills, and theory as a musician in a formal setting (i.e., in a school music program, with a teacher, etc.), it is just as important to learn and develop by playing with others. He cites the importance of the jazz jam sessions (and the "battles" that occurred there) for musicians to find their souls as musicians. Perhaps some of the rock/pop musicians have developed their musical soul thru playing with others, but could be even better if they added the other foundation of music schooling. The two are interdependent parts of a whole.

 

Yes, we can be frustrated by Timmy C. for not having more training or a knowledge base that includes theory, but still dig his playing (or not).

[alexclaber]

Been going through a RATM phase this last week; I'd forgotten quite how incredible that first album is. And for all of Tim's asinine competitiveness and secrecy he does have fantastic tone, taste and time. One badass bass mofo.

 

Just ordered the second Audioslave album - be interesting to see if the claimed coherence is now there. Still prefer to hear Tim and Brad funking out on the hiphop grooves of Rage but it's all good. I don't think Tim's playing has as much personality now he's tuning BEAD but I can see the logic behind it, bringing the rock and keeping the funk in the background.

 

I see the 'tri-amped' rig has gone full circle. Maybe he's been talking to someone here about which amp to use...

 

Alex

[tnb]

Wow, what a great thread!

[dohhhhh6]

Since this is already bumped...

 

I used to love Rage Against the Machine. I owned both Evil Empire and Battle of Los Angeles. That was 2 years, right before I decided to listen to more positive music (which I don't do anymore).

 

Coming back, I absolutely hate Rage Against the Machine. I just can't stand how freaking forumulatic they are. Every song is the same thing, plus they're all riffs! Verse in and chorus out... RIFFS! But what bothers me more, is the instrumental verse, instrument chorus, then vocals verse, etc. They use it on every song.

 

Doesn't it bother anyone else that here's a musician (Tom Morello) who has a degree in music whose playing such repetitive material with what seems to me, no inspiration?

 

... Tim's playing is pretty decent/good on the albums...

 

Sorry to divert this into a Rage rant!

LadY

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

I used to love Rage Against the Machine. I owned both Evil Empire and Battle of Los Angeles.

What about the eponymous album? That's definitely the catchiest and hardest hitting of the four.

 

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

Coming back, I absolutely hate Rage Against the Machine. I just can't stand how freaking forumulatic they are. Every song is the same thing, plus they're all riffs! Verse in and chorus out... RIFFS! But what bothers me more, is the instrumental verse, instrument chorus, then vocals verse, etc. They use it on every song.

Interesting... You and I are both writing bass players so I feel I can see where you're coming from. And a few years ago I would have probably said the same as you. But I think you have to look beyond the apparently formulaic arrangements to see that these arrangements work really well for the music. It's like formulaic basslines in country or rock - yes, they may be predictable but they're what the song wants!

 

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

Doesn't it bother anyone else that here's a musician (Tom Morello) who has a degree in music whose playing such repetitive material with what seems to me, no inspiration?

For starters Tom doesn't have a degree in music, I believe it's in politics, sociology or economics (or something along those lines). I don't really see how you can claim that the music has so inspiration - so it's all in either E, F# or D; so it's all arranged similarly; so what?

 

Listening to the first album, it has such fire and passion. Ok the lyrics may be 'somewhat socialist' but Zack is so in the groove and means that he's saying, the whole band is incredibly tight yet fluidly funky and really rocking hard. Tom is playing the guitar like it's never been done before and Timmy and Brad are locking in down like Bonzo and JPJ at their rifftastic best. And the hooks! So there's no traditional melodies per se but amongst the guitar and bass riffs, Tom's crazy textures and Zack's lyrical volleys there are so many catchy melodic moments.

 

Is that really repetitive material with no inspiration? What is songwriting really about?

 

Alex

[Phil W]

Tim C has a decent groove and a great sound.

 

I think that, unfortunately, some of his fans expect him to say something controversial (it usually comes accross more as childish).

 

Audioslave - the first album was competent but hugely derivative - I've not heard the new one

 

RATM ranged between the inspired and the dogmatic (but I'd take that over insipid anyday). Mind you, I've enjoyed a few of their albums and never played any of them more than once.

 

I was impressed with the way he credidted jazz musicians (especially horn players)for the inspiration for his riffs, part of me just thought he was saying this because he thought that it might sound cool, however.

[Phil W]

I just realised I've done what I've often done when in a rush - read only the first page of a thread and then posted - seeing the reply box at the bottom and thinking it's the end - duh! Sorry folks! Some good stiff in this thread - just to clarify the above

 

I don't think Tim C and Morello are derivative - they are trying to do something new (particularly the guitar solos). It's the songs, the melodies and some of the riffs on the first Audiodlave album that I was referring to. The first track is so Led Zep!

 

I was inspired by this thread to listen to 'The Battle of Los Angeles' for the 2nd time and I really enjoyed it! Tim's bass sound is great. The guitar playing had me at the old air-guitar while doing the washing up and the tracks were exciting.

I realised though that the reason I never play the stuff if the swearing. I know it's my problem and I'm being a bit wussy about this maybe but it does put me off, although I can see how it serves the intensity of the music.

I wish I could find my copy of RATM's first album!

[musicfiend]

Originally posted by Tom Capasso:

This term has a definitive American meaning. It was used frequently by our 26th president, Theodore Roosevelt (who is an inspiration and often serves as my avatar).

 

I have a lot of respect for Theodore roosevelt and what He did for our country...So here's a fun fact.

After having chosen taft as his succesor in presidency, TR was dismayed at how Taft controlled Big Business with in unfair enforcement of antitrust acts.

TR ran against Taft and Wilson in the follwing election. Taft had gotten the republican nomination, so TR formed the progressive part, called the Bull Moose party.

During a campaign speech for his Bull Moose part TR was shot in the chest in an assasination attempt.

TR finished his specch while bleeding from his wound saying that, " This can't hurt a Bull Moose". He didn't seek medical help until about 1 1/2 hours after being shot.

DEDICATION PEOPLE, DEDICATION

[musicfiend]

ANYWAY, Back to Tim....

Tim learned how to play through his friendship with Zack de la rocha, he hadn't been in many bands besied rage, up until audioslave.

This probably explains why he didn't know how to play a chord progression, he wasn't looking to become a good musician per se, he was looking to express his political views and angst.

Does his playing in rage make him a good bassplayer. well it certaintly doesn't put him in the class of say Pino Palladino, James Jamerson, JPJ, and to get mto a more Personal Level, Adrian Garcia, and Jeremy Cohen. It does however, prove that he has a unique voice on the instrument, despite being untalented interms of knowledge of music theory and experience as a musician.

[musicfiend]

Sorry for the extraneous posts, but I wanted to mention something else.

When I started playing bass I was heavily into the rock music of the day. Nowaday's my scope is much broader, I have a pretty extensive collection of music I'll listen to, whether it's some live jazz recorded at the baked potatoe, later beatles , various middle eastern music, mingus, hard rock, Marley, Hot tuna, Stevie Wonder, The Bad Plus,Radiohead, John Mayall, John Mayer, The Eagles, Primus, Bright Eyes, Motown, Underground Music (Yosaku, harmonic 33, BobJames, etc), TOP, Bootsy, etc.

BUT, the first two songs I learned to play were Otherside by RHCP and then Guerilla Radio by RATM.

I have much more respect for someone like Flea who's open minded and constantly pursuing new musical projects. Flea has opened a music school, taken upright lessons as well as Keyboard Lessons, played many sessions, etc.

Flea was taght how to play be original RHCP guitarist Hilel Slovak. His father was a musician and he started out on trumpet. Nowadays He's still expanding. I've never heard flea say abad word about any player out there. Flea has also been known to jam and play with other Projects. He pursued a Joy Division cover band with John Frusciante, he played bass on the Mars Volta's Deloused in the comatorium, I've seen him onstage Jammin with other artists. Heck, I saw him play Trumpet with Incubus.

Another consideration: Flea is out there playing a fairly straightforward signature bass through fairly straightforward solid state gear. He's playing through good gear and He's sharing as much musical knowledge as he has, but I've never heard anybody capture his sound.

That is partially becuase his style is prone to change, he plays for the music, not for any ego.

Flea inspired me to learn how to Slap (I got a 2 minute lesson from my teacher, and I was off; I asked him "can you teach me how to slap", he just groaned ). Flea also inspired me to play with a pick.

When you have such disparate personalities and musicians, despite growth from a common source...well it makes you wonder.

Flea, to me, is simply an amazing musician and human being. I relaize that players like Victor Wooten, Stanley Clarke, Jaco Pastorious, Geddy Lee, and James Jamerson have done more to spearhead growth of the bass guitar and I appreciate that too much to even put into words, but I just though that this post was worth merit, hopefully you all will agree.

[alexclaber]

Just got the new Audioslave album. I wasn't blown away at first but it's proving a grower. It doesn't sound like RATM backing CC, it sounds much more like a band that's all on the same track. Good playing all round and solid but not mindblowingly great songwriting (it's not Jesus Chris Pose or Spoonman). The band has got so much better at playing that which isn't full on rock or funk - much more maturity in their playing.

 

Timmy C's playing has really progressed and he's worth listening to if you want to expand your rock bass playing - who needs rhythm guitarists? And his tone? I think you can guess.

 

Worth £7? Definitely.

 

Alex

[ArwinH]

How about a bump........just 'cuz

 

I stumbled upon a mroe recent interview with tim commerfor which places him in a more positive light.

 

Thoughts????

 

http://fender.com/news/index.php?display_article=75

[alexclaber]

I don't know why everyone got so worked up about the first interview - he just has a dry sense of humour. But this interview is great, some real nuggets of wisdom:

 

"They have low end, but they dont have a ton of low end. Im finding that thats better for drop-D and B tuning, when theres maybe not as much low end, and theres more of a growl to it."

 

" Any suggestions for aspiring bassists?

 

TC: Make sure you dont play your bass down by your ankles (laughs)! Or else some guy who plays his bass up by his neck might end up playing your songs! Keep the bass jacked up to your neck. I like to see it as more of a bib than a belt (laughs again)! When you hit the strings to where they vibrate in line with the pickups instead of smacking into the magnets when its down lowyou know what Im saying; thats no way to get a clean sound. That forces good technique. And good technique, whether youre riding a bike or playing a bass, thats how you learn how to do it rightby starting with the right technique."

 

Interesting to note that he's returned to standard tuning for most songs.

 

Alex

[way2fat]

My own chops don't leave me much room for finger-pointing, but I can see how the professionals might be a little miffed from a "dues paid" perspective. OTOH, my initials are TC and I can usually handle chord changes, so I guess I'm ready for the big-time.