band hating

[jimbojones]

Does anyone else besides me hate it when someone says that sucks, or I hate . For example, the phrase, "Metallica sucks," basically means that they a not skilled musicians, but what that person really mean is, "I don't like their music." I hear people say "Metallica sucks" all the time (especially loyal Megadeth fans), but most musicians know that Lars Ulrich, James Hetfiled, Kirk Hammet, Rob Trujillo, Jason Newsted, Cliff Burton, are/were all extremely talented musicians, and they should be respected for that. Also, you don't always have to be a great musician to make great music, I mean I like "Hot cross buns" and "Mary had a little lamb" .The same goes for " I Hate metallica," which literally means that the person hates the members of Metallica. You really can't hate someone without really knowing them personally. I am only 14 years old, and people my age and much older talk like this, but yet this is common sence. If so-and-so dislikes metallica, all they have to say is,"I hate Metallica's music." I have also heard people say "Primus sucks", but everyone in the forum knows or should know that Les Claypool is a fine bass player due to his skill and originality. I lecture my firends and family know when they rave about how "ABBA sucks." Does anyone else here who actually understands what I just wrote also hate it when people talk like this.

 

PS. I am using Metallica as an example, and I am not planning on getting sued! hahaha!

[hags2k]

Interesting comments, albeit not exactly bass-related. However, I do agree with your point that people like to express their subjective views on any number of issues with musical acts and performers with broad statements like "they suck". And, yes, you are right when you say that when someone says "metallica sucks" they mean that they don't like their music. My closest friends are those whom I play music with, and as we have played together and learned together over time, we've started to mature (i think and hope) and no longer will one of us say "they suck" or "i just hate them". My drummer very much dislikes some of the music I like, and although he used to be outspoken on such matters, anymore all I hear is "I don't care for him" or "I don't care for his music" or something similar. And if one of us has a gripe about the actual talent/musicianship of a person/group, the person expressing his malcontent tends to specify exactly what they don't like or what bothers them. Also, when someone says "I don't care for that music", that is all that needs to be said anymore, and it carries more weight to me than when someone says that so and so sucks.

 

Most music out there is art and has artistic value in some way or another, and developing a respect and appreciation for that, and for all the music that one has not yet had the privilege to sample, is part of maturing both as a musician and as a music lover, I believe.

[Cup]

One of musics greatest qualities is that people get very passionate about it. When people get passionate they come out with strong statements. Sometimes for the wrong reasons.

 

If you can recognise good musicianship without connecting with the music, be happy you've got a good set of ears.

 

p.s who ever says they hate Abba obviously needs psychiatric help.

 

Cup

[tnb]

But what about Korn? Is it ok to say "what a bunch of hacks"?

 

Jimbojones, if you are really 14 years old, you are way ahead of the curve.

[MattC]

There is an important need to seperate the music from the musician. I judge music based on the music. As soon as I think about the performer, my view becomes skewed by my thoughts of the performer. Case in point- I was driving back from WSU a few weeks ago when a local radio station began to play "the beautiful people." Having not heard the song in many years, I didn't recognize the first several bars, although I was digging it. As soon as I recognized the song, my first instinct was basicly this: "change the station, this is a manson song." For someone who claims to be as musically open minded as I do, this was a little startling. I finished the song out, even singing the lyrics I could recall.

To return to the opening example, as soon as I think that I'm playing a metallica song, it seems hackneyed and juvenile in my mind. i have to force myself past this point and let the music and my performance stand on its own.

[Jode]

Point of order: When you hear someone say, "Primus sucks," you are hearing someone repeat their motto. Les Claypool opens every show by saying, "We're Primus, and we suck."

[doc taz]

Originally posted by matt C:

There is an important need to seperate the music from the musician. I judge music based on the music. As soon as I think about the performer, my view becomes skewed by my thoughts of the performer. Case in point- I was driving back from WSU a few weeks ago when a local radio station began to play "the beautiful people." Having not heard the song in many years, I didn't recognize the first several bars, although I was digging it. As soon as I recognized the song, my first instinct was basicly this: "change the station, this is a manson song." For someone who claims to be as musically open minded as I do, this was a little startling. I finished the song out, even singing the lyrics I could recall.

To return to the opening example, as soon as I think that I'm playing a metallica song, it seems hackneyed and juvenile in my mind. i have to force myself past this point and let the music and my performance stand on its own.

Hopefully this is the very reason John Lowery (Now called John 5 within the band) joined Marilyn Manson. If he joined them only for the face paint, then something's wrong...

[Iceman Irwin]

I was once in the middle of an A&R discussion and it seems the phrase "It just sucks" was the common lingo. It hurts me to know that they were saying these over a couple of indie artists who i'm very much impressed. But i later learned that there are two kinds of ears in music. The ear for money and the ear for art. The former really does have the 'suck' thing going, but it's just words.

Let's just make music...

[NickT]

But some bands do just suck:

 

The Vines, The Strokes, Underworld.

 

I rest my case.

[Tom Capasso]

Some of my favorite music has been made by bands who mostly suck. Other people in my age bracket will remember that some of the early 60s folks were not accomplished, lacked a vibe, but still made some decent music.

 

I prefer to say "I don't enjoy it". That way you are talking about your reaction (Cup is right - music drives passion), rather than trying to impose your values on other music. Sure, I thought some of the music I've heard sucks, but that's just my opinion....

 

Tom

[jeremy c]

As the 12 and 13 year olds that I teach say,

 

"Don't be a hater"

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

As the 12 and 13 year olds that I teach say,

 

"Don't be a hater"

One of the finer phrases in modern parlance, in my humble opinion. I appreciate the clarity and succinctness of the message.

[Drewbie]

oR Do THeY rOOl?

[Adamixoye]

Originally posted by NickT:

But some bands do just suck:

 

The Vines, The Strokes, Underworld.

 

I rest my case.

Ah, come on now. Actually, I really like some but not all Vines songs, I dislike the only Strokes song that I've ever heard, and I've never heard anything by Underworld.

 

I know you're just making a joke, but what you're really making is the point of the original post, which to me was an excellent point. (Can I try to take credit for trying to make the same point--or at least a similar one--for the last few months?)

 

There are TWO parts to whether or not a band "sucks", one objective and one subjective:

 

(1) Do the musicians make mistakes relative to what they were intending to play? If they make mistakes, then the band perhaps sucks, and does so objectively.

(2) Do you like it? If you don't, then the band sucks...but only subjectively, to you.

 

Soooooooo many times people think that (2) is the ultimate question, when obviously it is not.

 

To all those who do so, please spare us. There exists objective truth in this universe. Your opinions about music are not part of that.

[Connie Z]

I am always amazed when I hear a musician say, "That band sucks!"

 

Somehow in my childhood I got the message that people in an industry generally display an automatic "courtesy" to each other. I finally figured out the perfect analogy for it, and here it is...

 

Do you ever hear a Cardiologist say, "Man, those Endocronologists suck!" ????

 

I didn't think so. And to me it's the same. Cardiologists respect Endocronologists because they are in the same field... medicine.

 

I always respect the other musicians/bands because we are in the same "field." I may personally not have a taste for their "specialty" but I do respect their effort and their talent, and I would hope they respect mine.

 

Good topic JimboJones! Your musical maturity is evident .

 

... connie z

[Dan South]

Yeah, it annoys me. I try to say, "I don't care for Band X," rather than "Band X sucks!" My taste is my own, and I take full responsibility for it. I might say that a performance sucked if the players weren't into it, made a lot of sloppy mistakes, etc. But I still wouldn't claim that they suck unless the quality was low on a consistent basis.

[Kooky Mogessi]

Originally posted by Connie Z:

 

Do you ever hear a Cardiologist say, "Man, those Endocronologists suck!" ????

 

I'm going to assume thats how you spell that big "E" word and give you a for being able to spell it.

[ibescotty]

To put a different spin on this. You work really hard on your music and put it out there for the public to hear. You have invested very heavily into the project. Emotionally and maybe financially and you really believe in it. After all your hard work you get "They Suck".

 

Not very nice.

 

I like the "Don't be hater" line. I think it's a keeper.

[The Bear Jew]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Adamixoye]

Originally posted by Penguinsarebirds:

Originally posted by Connie Z:

 

Do you ever hear a Cardiologist say, "Man, those Endocronologists suck!" ????

 

I'm going to assume thats how you spell that big "E" word and give you a for being able to spell it.

Actually, it's "Endocrinologists". I wouldn't have noticed until you pointed it out, and I did have to double-check to confirm my inkling (really, I'm not trying to be a spelling nazi). In either case, Connie's point was a good one. Difference in styles and taste in no way implies "sucking".

[Rik]

I had the same thoughts as the OP when I was about the same age. I too really got tired of hearing "so-and-so sucks!" when the speaker simply means that they don't like so-and-so's music. Especially in cases where the so-and-so in question is, say, Rush.

 

On the other hand, I do think there are some bands that suck as musicians, but some of those bands I respect anyway for other reasons. For example, the Beastie Boys in their early days after Fight For Your Right (To Party). I honestly thought they sucked as musicians. But I remembered reading a magazine article about them several years before they hit big. They had gotten a gig as an opening act for one of Madonna's tours. In the article, one of the guys in the band made the statement, "Our goal is to be the worst band on the face of the earth." I thought they accomplished their goal admirably, and so I respected them for it

[Mike H.]

Like a butt-hole, everyone's got an opinion. Don't take it personally.

[Mr. Phil]

Originally posted by Mike (aka Hoagie):

Like a butt-hole, everyone's got an opinion. Don't take it personally.

I don't get it...

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by phil6006:

Originally posted by Mike (aka Hoagie):

Like a butt-hole, everyone's got an opinion. Don't take it personally.

I don't get it...

Everyone's got a butt-hole.

Everyone's got an opinion.

Get it?

[MattC]

Just a thought: it's possible for a group to be made of fine musicians but still be not up to par (or that is to say, that the band itself sucks, not it's members).

I'd still remove the word "suck" from the popular vernacular if I could, but then what would become of vaccum cleaner salesmen?

[prophetgtree]

In answer to the above post, yeah, I think that you could have very good musicians who just just work well musically together, although, it would still probably sound pretty good. I actually sometimes have to judge bands on who they are, as much as what they play. I try to remain as good a person as I possibly can, all that moral stuff, but if I feel that this person who is perfoming this song is not doing this for the right reasons that they should, then I might not want to support them as much as I orginally did. Many of the bands I listen to on the radio, I don't know, and judge strictly on music. But people I've worked with, on music festivals and the such, can be judged by personality. Now, don't get me wrong, I rarely ever dislike music because of the person performing it, but it's completely possible to do so as long as you have a face-to-face relationship with that person.

 

I hope that made sense.

[NickT]

Now I'm sure this is the right thread this time.

 

Isn't saying "they suck" just a short hand for..."I don't like this band. I think there material is weak and they play it poorly" or something similar? Why are we getting so hot under the collar over a word, which is just being used to express an opinion. Granted that opinion is being expressed in a manner that is, to say the least, blunt. It is still an opinion and if you want to say that a band "sucks" that is your right.

 

Connie, I take issue with your opinion that musicians should automatically respect other musicians. (Forgive me for paraphrasing.)

 

Respect must be earned, not given. If it is not earnt then it is worthless. I would never expect another musician to respect me as a player or writer on principle, without ever having heard me play a note. There are many musicians that I know for whom I have no respect, and probably never will. Don't mistake this for meaning that I am rude to them or even that I dislike them as people. I have been in bands with musicians that I don't respect.

 

I have true respect for very few people, musicians included, however that doesn't mean that I am unpleasant to people. However I do not and will not respect a musician who can't play, can't sing, can't write etc. If I have never heard someone play, I have no opinion on them.

 

I remember the first time I saw The Vines...I thought "remember this moment Nick, you have finally seen a band that has no redeming features".

 

The Vines can't play, can't sing, can't write and have no charm, stage presence or whatever you want to call it. The have almost no musical ability. I will not respect them.

 

PS: They suck!!!

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by NickT:

The Vines can't play, can't sing, can't write and have no charm, stage presence or whatever you want to call it. The have almost no musical ability.

While I do not like the Vines' music and agree with your assessment (above), I could understand that for some people the writing could speak to them; some people could get excited about their stage show; some people could appreciate the sloppiness of the playing and singing, and the style of emotiveness put forth from this band. I have different tastes, beliefs, and interpretations than those people.

 

That said, "suckiness" is imbued with a fair degree of subjectivity. It is determined by the aspects of a band and its music that we deem most important, and these aspects vary from listener to listener. It is not universal. We can legitimately disagree about "suckiness" and degrees of "suckiness." We can critique the playing, the singing, the writing, etc. We can do so specifically, but in the end does that truly allow us to place an objective label of "sucks" on what a given band does?

 

Thus, the use of the phrase "that band sucks" (or even "that bass sucks") is really an expression of an opinion, rather than an absolute or a universal. We can legitimately argue the value of that opinion and explain how it is based on assessments of various aspects of a band's music, performance, etc., but we may not be able to devalue the fact that the music may speak to someone else in ways that it does speak to us.

 

And then...we haven't even discussed the role of the recording industry (a.k.a., High Ministry of Musicial Culture Determinism ) in "telling" the public what doesn't suck!

 

Did any of the prose above make any sense whatsoever?!

 

Peace,

--Willie

[NickT]

This is the wonderful thing about music. It is almost totally subjective. As far as each of us is concerned...our opinions are right. (If you don't agree with me...that is your right, but you're wrong. It's you're right to be wrong, but I'm right.) hee hee hee.

 

But seriously if you didn't think that your opinion was right, then it wouldn't be your opinion, surely. Anyway enough of that.

 

The great thing is that I can feel totally secure in saying "The Vines suck" or "Yes suck", just as my g**tar player can feel totally secure in saying that "Led Zep suck". It's all subjective, but, on our own terms, we are all right.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by NickT:

This is the wonderful thing about music. It is almost totally subjective. As far as each of us is concerned...our opinions are right...

 

...The great thing is that I can feel totally secure in saying "The Vines suck" or "Yes suck", just as my g**tar player can feel totally secure in saying that "Led Zep suck". It's all subjective, but, on our own terms, we are all right.

Well said.

 

Oh, and by the way, you suck!