Expensive Mic Pre Amp. Do we need'em?

[seju]

let me introduce myself: my name is Sergio Lapa , I'm 23 years old and from Brazil. Its been like 1 year now since i had the guts to tell everyone i wanted to record music instead of becoming a lawyer. Pretty tough, uh? Well, let's go straight to the point. I'm really pissed about mic pre's costing so much money. Would you people mind like to help me a little? Here's the case: I'm gettin'my gear setup (humble digi 001, yamaha powered msp10, some fairly good mics etc etc). But when it comes to pre amps i'm really lost. Ok, tube warmth is all the rage nowadays but that doesn't tell me much. I'm a drummer myself, and i have read tons on how to get a great drum sound (really, i'm expecting A LOT out of this stuff i'm reading and buying). I figured 8 mic pre's for my drums will be more than enough...I know its hard for guys to point out which is THE BEST best mic pre on the market, which is the worst... that's very subjective i know... But, what mic pre's are notoriously good on vocals? Which ones are equally good on drums? guitars? Should i really get 8 top of the line pre amps just for the sake of recording awesome drums, or would it be wiser to get 8 good ones and 1 excelent for vocals?? Sonically, what difference would i be noticing with the million dollar preamp(drum wise)? HELP ME FOLKS. I'm lost!!

[Tedly Nightshade]

There are better ways to record drums than with 8 mics, unless you're bent on a MODERN ROCK sound. If you are, ignore what I say. 3 or 4 mics on a kit can be dynamite. 1 or 2 overheads, kick mic, and snare if for some reason it's not the loudest thing in the overheads already. A room mic or a "front of kick" mic can give you real power and all the reverb and ambience you need. I would much rather record drums with 3 excellent mics and 3 excellent pres than with twice as many less than excellent ones. No kidding! The difference between reasonably priced pres and the worthwhile ones is vast indeed. A very important place in the budget, for sure. Since you are recording drums and cymbals you will get vastly better results if the mics and mic pres can handle the very lively sudden transient attacks that are the definition of percussion. If you want a tube pre get a Manley or a Pendulum at the very minimum. No kidding. Don't mess around with lesser tube stuff, it's not what it should be. Some solid state pres like Avalon, GML, etc. handle input levels like +24 to even +32. You're not going to clip that, not even for the split second the drum sounds hit their peak attack. Clipping those peaks leads to a brittle sound with harsh small sounding cymbals. All these pres would be very suitable for vocals as well, by the way. Same goes for mics- you don't want to be clipping condensor mics that can't handle the intense transient attacks. Dynamic mics are fine for snare and bass drum, as they're hard to clip. Ribbons will also handle the intense transients well and can make good affordable overheads or kick mics. I personally use condensors that can take around 150 db sound pressure levels without clipping, DPA's. A lot of nice condensors will clip at more like 120 to 130 db, and even if you don't clip them there will be considerable harmonic distortion, not the good kind either. I hope this helps. I recommend using fewer pieces of best quality gear you'll use for a lifetime, or resell at a good price, than more cheaper stuff, although more cheaper stuff is a more popular way to go... if not such a great way. Ted

[Lee Flier]

Well, it really depends on a lot of things... I don't know what kind of mics you're using or how you like to record drums. Are you into the close miked, "dead" sound or do you want a more natural "live" sound with room mics etc.? I don't really think you need 8 great pres in most cases... for example you probably don't need the best pres in the world on the toms, particularly if you have really good pres for the overheads/room mics. There are mid level pres like the JoeMeek VC1Q, $600 and they make a GREAT pre for drums, particularly kick and snare (toms too). Plus you get their compression built in to boot, which is really nice. Works well for "John Bonham" type heavily compressed room mics too. If I were you and could afford it, I'd get two great all purpose pres (or one 2-channel pre) such as Cranesong, Grace, Langevin, Great River, Amek, GML, Avalon, etc. and use those either for stereo overheads, or single overhead/room, or single overhead/snare. Depending on what tracks are most important to the specific song. I use mostly a single OH these days so if I have two channels of top of the line pre I use them for the OH and the snare, or the OH and the room. Works well for those on a budget. IMO it's better to use a single overhead and get a killer mic and pre for that, than have "traditional" stereo overheads and have to skimp on the mics and pres just because you need two. As an alternative the the JoeMeeks for about the same price, the API 4 channel "lunchboxes" are killer for kick and toms, and work out to about $600/channel I believe. The JoeMeeks and API's are a rather "colored" sound which is why they're great for kick, toms, and sometimes snare. They both add a little extra "oomph" to the drums. Whereas for OH and room mics, and sometimes snare (depending on the snare sound you're going for), you usually want something more transparent and open. All of the pres I listed as recommended "top of the line" pres fall into this category, and it's hard to really go wrong with any of them not only for drums but for vocals, guitars, just about anything. In short you can look for these pres to "open up" your overall sound whereas the Meek's and API's are not so clear and open but give a mighty "thwack" to the drums as I mentioned. I like either of these pres for electric guitar and bass, too. There are other pres that would serve you well and it's all pretty subjective, but that's where I would start. Having a few channels of great, "transparent" pres and a few pres with good "color" should serve you well for any application. --Lee

[Lee Flier]

Oh yeah, and listen to what Ted says, the boy knows what he's talking about. :D --Lee

[Dylan]

You might consider the Presonus Digimax or Digimax LT to use with your Digi001. The converters and preamps in the Presonus are better than Digi's by far! The Digimax LT can be picked up for $800 new, which is a steal for 8 very nice preamps. Check out [url=http://www.presonus.com]www.presonus.com[/url] for more details.

[Mats Olsson.]

Do not buy semi-cheap gear. There are some rare gems that can be had for quite small amounts, but most of the semi-cheap stuff is not much better than what is built into half-decent mixers anyway. Better to buy used quality gear for equal amount as some new (hyped) flavor-of-the-month crap. Lots more bang for the buck and should you ever want to sell or trade, often you will get back all or most of what you did pay in the first place. Then, on the other hand, if you are just getting started, perhaps it is smarter to spend money on the sound of your rooms rather than esoteric pre-amps. A good room and a mixer with decent bult-in preamps will probably sound nicer than an untreated room captured with a great pre in the signal chain. Also, you can probably rent the super-good stuff if you only need it occasionally. /Mats

[Lee Flier]

Good advice, Mats. Definitely it's better to make sure your drum kit and your room sound good than to blow your whole wallet on great pres, only to record a crappy source. You don't necessarily need to spend a fortune on room treatment though. Lots of people go way overboard with that and/or use the wrong kind of treatment. Make sure your room really does have problems first, then start with a few simple things like bass traps and diffusion (both can be done pretty cheaply) and go from there. --Lee

[Tedly Nightshade]

" IMO it's better to use a single overhead and get a killer mic and pre for that, than have "traditional" stereo overheads and have to skimp on the mics and pres just because you need two." Plus it will likely sound better than stereo unless you have your placement really down. Stereo micing is an art and a science. And yes, spending money on fine instruments goes a lot further! Think what kind of drums and cymbals you can choose from for what the good pres and mics cost. Good instruments record a lot better. And the room is a biggie, as is exactly WHERE in the room. Ted

[MusicWorkz]

The difference between mic pre's are like comparing cars. Sure, a Ford Festiva would get you from point A to point B the same as a Mercedes Benz S600 or BMW 745, but the actual trip is where the you will feel why the M-B or BMW costs an order of magnitude more. Both cars serve the same puprose, but the implementation is much different. At every price level, you will find good and not-so-good gear (mic pre's in this case). Your goal should be to find the biggest bang for your buck that fits your needs. When it is time to upgrade to that next level, not only will you have the knowledge of what works well for you and the sound you want, you will know what 'options' you want in the newer, better model AND you will still have your original piece of gear to use(the reason I don't sell anything). With that said, what is the price range you are working with?

[Sylver]

Wouldn't it make more sense to get a nice deck, say a Mackie, and use those mic pre's until he can afford the primo stuff? Seems like that would give him the best bang for the buck.

[where02190]

Our most high en mic pre is a pair ofTL Audio C-1's. Our high end mics are AKG 414's, C-4000B's and Audio Technica 4033a's. Yea the cream of the crop is nice, but great recordings can be made with reasonably priced well made gear. while the DigimaxLT is not the cream of the crop, I've heard some great sounding recordings done using them. Alot of good advice here regarding micing techniques, room acoustics, etc. I persoanlly like to track alot of mics, so I have choices when it comes to mix time, and often have 2-3 kick mics, stereo OH, room mics, tom mics, etc, but when mix times comes typically it's OH's, room, kick and maybe snare that gets used. less id definitely more when it comes to a great drum sound, and mic placement and tuning are key. My bottom line is I do not need the most expensive "best" gear to get a great recording, as the principles of recording applied properly can yield results with any well designed equipment. Hope this is helpful.

[seju]

Wow ! Never thought i'd get such great replies! Thanks folks. Ok, first off: It maybe common to associate a lot of mics with modern rock production (i'm talkin about the recording of drums) but take for instance Steve Albini (the type of guy record labels want to stay away from :-) I read he uses a lot of mics and he is far from having a "close mic" type of sound. recording drums is very subjective. "If you want a tube pre get a Manley at the very minimum..." By the way, manley's are very expensive, aren't they? What did you mean by "at the very minimum" Ted ? Also, i hear a lot of good reviews on the Art Dual MP. What do you guys know about it? Does it "color" the sound like the JoeMeek one? Oh, and just for the sake of it: I much prefer the John Bonham type of sound than anything else! :-)

[soapbox]

[b]seju[/b], you've been give a lot of good advice about which pres to use. However, I want to address the issue of whether you should buy or rent. I don't know what the gear rental situation is like in Salvador; but here in LA, when I was starting out, I would rent high-end gear when it came time to record final tracks. At that time, I was aspiring to be a recording artist, so I only recorded when I had enough material ready. If instead you want to run a project studio and record outside clients daily, then renting would be a bad move. What type of career in music recording do you want? Renting high-end gear is a much better way to go if you only need it occasionally.

[audiofreek]

Seju, I second the recommendation for the Presonus Digimax.I am a Digi001 user as well and unless you can head to a Guitar Centre and buy the last of the Pasnasonic DA7 Digital mixers for $2,000.00(which is what I did)you will need a something to access the 8 ADAT i/o.The Digimax has reasonable quality D/A convertion to ADAT,and 8 reasonably transparent mic pres with a built in,bypassable, limiter on each channel.The mic pres are a little more coloured than the DA7s and the converters are not quite as good.I guess What I'm really recomeding is a DA7. A.F.

[Uh Clem]

I agree with you - who needs expensive mic pres? In fact I'm offering to take in any that are cluttering up anyone's facility and need to be discarded and deal with them appropriately :D You have gotten some good advice - heres my take: 1) be careful when just starting out and buying too much stuff - feel your way thru it or you will be re-buying too much later once you know more about what you are doing. 2) don't buy middle of the road - someone else mentioned this. You could do a lot worse than a 12 channel Allen&Heath (not! Mackie) board that would be about $800US - it will take huge amounts of money to do better than that - the middle ground, to me, just does not exist. It is a consumer trap for suckers. So why not spend about $800 and figure out your limitations and that equipment's limitation before you sink more into the gear you'll want to own permanently. 3) That you consider good mics to be less costly than good mic pres makes me reiterate point number two above because I'd say they are about equal on the average. 4) One of the coolest sounding drums I recorded was done with a kick mic (can't remember what - 58 maybe), and an SM58 stuck up between the rack tom and the kick pointed toward the snare and another 58 of to the side of the kit. This was a live setup on a jazz kit, but it sounded so much more like real drums that a multi-mic kit. Sometimes less is more...which brings me to my last point... 5) back to cost - some of the cleanest recordings I did were done back in college when we had almost no gear and ran direct into a TASCAM R2R 4-track. I have found, over the years, that it takes very well designed expensive gear to sound as good as a $5 piece of wire and carefully placed mics.

[Gus Lozada]

ISTO é um dos melhores foruns de Musicplayer.com é receberá muitos conselhos usáveis porque todas estas pessoas são peritos em seuas áreas. Eu aprendi deles ! :thu: Eu quero convidaá-lo participar, se você requiere falar espanhol ou português, a [url=http://www.musicplayer.com/nuestroforo]Nuestro Foro[/url] . Achará engenheiros e entusiastas de muitos países que falan espanhol. Estaremos felizes em ajudaá-lo e ter você participar. Oba !

[DC]

[quote]Originally posted by seju: [b]Also, i hear a lot of good reviews on the Art Dual MP. What do you guys know about it? Does it "color" the sound like the JoeMeek one? [/b][/quote]I don't think you'd be happy with the Art pre. I had one and what I noticed over time was that it sounded okay when recording one part, but when you recorded several things through it there was a definate building up of crud factor to contend with. Sort of a crunchy unmusical quality in the high mids on vocals and acoustic instruments. Although a lot of folks seem to like them, I think anything run through a Meek sounds like overboosted low mid crap. Can't stand them for any source except I got a mandolin sounding okay through one once. The compressors aren't bad but the mic pre's and eq's are horrorshow. If expense is a big factor, you're probably best off getting a descent little board with several pre's and some better mics. Check the Spirit and Allen & Heath mixers.

[Tedly Nightshade]

""If you want a tube pre get a Manley at the very minimum..." By the way, manley's are very expensive, aren't they? What did you mean by "at the very minimum" Ted ?" Manley pres are about the least expensive of the worthwhile tube pres, at about $1600 for two channels new. They go clear on up to twice that for a DW Fearn, and doubtless further. I was just saying that Manley is about entry level for a worthwhile tube mic pre- consider everything below that as "posing as a tube mic pre."- and don't buy it! So if you want to spend less, go solid state- and make sure to get really good solid state. The landscape is cluttered with mediocre gear with real issues and not built to last- the semi-expensive stuff Mats was talking about. Them John Bonham sounds are just a few mics, on a great kit with a great drummer! Investing in the kit and the drummer's skills would go a long way towards that end... Ted

[KenElevenShadows]

First of all, you've gotten a lot of really good, useful advice. I don't know exactly what sound quality you are going after, but if you want top-notch, world-class, GREAT sounds, then you'd do best to listen to the advice posted above. A good, inexpensive mic preamp is the Peavey VMP-2, in case you are interested in checking out something cheap. While it is good quality, it is nowhere close to a Manley. It's simply good. I don't believe it's great. A mic preamp is the second most important thing in the chain, the first being the microphone, of course. Now, again, I don't know exactly what sound quality you truly need, so here's a suggestion that may work. Why don't you track drums, bass, guitars, vocals, etc. with some rented expensive mic preamps, and track those drums, bass, guitars, vocals, etc. with some decent mic preamps. The reason why I am suggesting that you do a full session is that it sometimes is difficult to tell weaknesses and strengths from just one or two tracks. No, try a whole session. Do it with the same musicians and instruments and microphones to make the comparison fair. Now, does it make a big difference? I suspect it will, but this is for you to make a better decision. Any strengths, anomalies, etc. will tend to show themselves when you are combining them, using many of the mic preamps over and over again. If, for example, mic preamps are strident, you'll really hear it when you combine this over 10-12 tracks. You'll hear the quality much better. It'll be much more obvious. Now, if you are using Digi001, you'll have some weakness with the digital converters, in my opinion. They're not great. If you still are in pursuit of a world-class sound, you're honestly going to need better converters than those. They, too, make a really big difference, especially over the course of tracks and tracks. Consider renting nice converters and doing a similar test as describe as above. Using really great equipment and A/Bing it to decent-quality equipment may be an eye-opener for you in many ways. And, if for some reason, you think, "Well, sure, I DO hear a huge difference, but it's not enough for me to warrant running out and dropping that much money right now.", then you will have saved yourself a lot of money. Either way, you'll be far more informed, having heard the results for yourself and feel better about any subsequent decision you make. I hope this helps!!!

[Tedly Nightshade]

Over a whole session is indeed where the differences show up. And of course that's all the listener will be hearing. Ted

[where02190]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [QB]A mic preamp is the second most important thing in the chain, the first being the microphone, of course. /QB][/quote]I disagree. The most important item in the chain is what is in front of the mic. The best, most expensive mic and preamp can't make up for a crap performance or a poor sounding instrument. You can polish a turd, but it's still just a piece of sh*t.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by where02190: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [QB]A mic preamp is the second most important thing in the chain, the first being the microphone, of course. /QB][/quote]I disagree. The most important item in the chain is what is in front of the mic. The best, most expensive mic and preamp can't make up for a crap performance or a poor sounding instrument.[/b][/quote]I realize that at this point, I'm engaging in semantics, but please note that I am referring to the *chain*, short for *signal chain*. What you are referring to is the SOURCE, which is not part of the *signal chain*. Obviously, the performer/instrument is by far the most important aspect in getting a good sound, and I doubt many would disagree with that all-too-obvious point -- certainly not the drummer posting this, who will be recording his own drums. However, stating this doesn't address the person's questioning of how important a mic preamp is in the SIGNAL CHAIN. I believe I addressed that by stating that within the SIGNAL CHAIN, the mic preamp is the second most important aspect of the chain, second only to the microphone itself. I stand by my original assertion.

[seju]

Ok, so i've been given all these great advices... Wow, i really feel like dumpin my pro tools in the trash can and getting an old 4track Tascam porta studio! Kidding! Although the 4track nowadays is a pretty limited piece of gear it is still very fun to mess with and that's why i want to bring another issue up: How good can be a self made pre amp ? Sounds like a crazy idea ? Well, I ran into the PAIA homepage and i just fell in love with the idea they try to sell. Does any one know anything about them? (www.paia.com) is they internet address

[KenElevenShadows]

I don't know how good a PAIA mic preamp is, but there's certainly nothing wrong with making your own mic preamp. It's as good as you make it. Wasn't there a decent set of schematics in TapeOp fairly recently?

[Dylan]

BTW, (shameless plug alert), I'm most likely going to be selling my Digimax, as the project that I bought it for just fell through....Seems the band I'm in would rather pay for a 'real' studio then use my DAW. Oh well, let em pay for an inferior product if they want :rolleyes: . I'd love to keep it around, but I could use the money for more important things right now. If anyone is interested please e-mail me privately.