Gettin' Busy

[davebrownbass]

Yesterday I spent a hour in a music store, and I looked at the new Peavey modeling bass combo. (I wasn't really impressed, somehow Peavey combos always sound "hollow" to me.)

 

The guy that was trying to sell me the amp was obviously a bassist, and he sat down and played lick after note-filled lick. Doing this or that, I got the sense he was trying to impress me. He put the amp through it's cab and effect paces.

 

He left, I sat down with the new G&L Jazz (which I liked a lot, for a jazz sound) and just tooted around a bit. Somewhere in there, I played a few ii-V three note chords and etc. Maybe I slapped a lick or two.

 

He came back, took the bass from me, and this time, he started playing chords, combined with a pretty good tapping melody.

 

I started talking to him about "playing pro." His take was that "he would never hire a guy" that didn't have "more than one tone," that to get work you had to have modeling, effects, and etc.

 

Then he said he spent all his time practicing all these slap tunes, fast licks, melodic riffs over chords, because that's what the "dance club scene" requires these days. It is the "only way you can make money in music, cover bands with no originals."

 

I don't make money that way. I try my best to play a good, solid bass line, I don't seize attention, I play to the page. (Of course, I have never in my life played in a "dance club" or in a cover band.) I have made money playing in small group jazz, bluegrass/country, praise/worship among other things.

 

So my question is: how busy is this board? Am I in the wrong place? I can cop somebodys lick if I needed to, but mostly I wanna do a simple bass line...I have never developed that "furious finger" technique. (I did note that this salesmans playing, intricate as it was, was rhythmically sloppy and ignored articulation.)

 

Am I archaic, or is there still a place for "simple" bass playing?

 

Resident Dinosaur,

Dave

[g.]

Goals have so much to do with it. Developing what is needed to meet those goals is often an internal and introspective process, but can also keep one from seeing the trees for the forest.

 

I don't worry my pretty head about "busy" or "simple". I just play what I think fits the music, and if that later changes, fine.

[61Pbass]

If you're a dinosaur then we need to start a club, 'cause I'm one too. I can play what the situation calls for, but the k.i.s.s. method of playing has gotten WAAAAAAAY more gigs for me than how fast or technical I can play. Sure, I admire and acknowledge the guys who are lightening fast or have a truck full of licks, but my strongest influences and heroes on bass are guys like Duck Dunn, Lee Sklar, Bob Glaub, etc. A good basic tone that fits the band, playing in the pocket and knowing when NOT to rip has let me make a very comfortable living for the last 30 years with no day gig.

 

I am by no means a technical monster, but I haven't had to go to an audition in probably 22 years. I get the call and if I like the music and the situation, I play. I haven't played in a top 40 or "dance" band of any kind since I was a teenager either. That's not to downplay the scene, it's just not my cup of tea. Good original projects have always been much more attractive to me.

[The Bear Jew]

Greenboy,

You nailed it.

 

Dave,

I work on doing the right stuff for the music I play. Last time I checked, tapping and speedy bass runs alone didn't actually guarantee a nice paycheck -- playing music that people will pay to hear over and over does, though. Don't worry about a thing. Do what you like, and if you make a buck or two doing it, that's even better.

[ikestr]

I have to agree with you guys esecially about the k.I.S.S. Yeah, I can slap, pop, tap, do the Jaco harmonics and play at lightning speeds....but do I need to? Very rarely. One of my last steady gigs was with a dance cover band and my job was to play the bass line exactly how it was on the original recording. Never in any of the songs was there a 'Bass Solo' which required me to go off. In an original project a few years ago I was told that I had as much space as I wanted, but I always kept it simple, I chose to lock in with the drummer providing a good rhythmic foundation so as to let the guitars, keys, vocals room enough to do what they need to do. I dont need to impress anyone with all that flashy stuff.

 

There are some monster bass players here where I live and I gotta say that I'm impressed by some of 'em, its just not my style. I think that one of the reasons why I have gotten so many calls and gigs is because I can play what is required.

 

ikestr

[dcr]

I too will join you in your wing of the museum. As I type, I happen to be listening to a Steely Dan song, which features a bass line that is built out of a repeating cylce of three arpeggiated notes (1, 2, 3, rest), and buddy it *works.* The guys I dig the most are the ones who play to the song, and who have such a solid mastery of time & rhythm that the part sits deep in the pocket & moves the song right where it needs to go. Walter Becker's got it; Rainey's got it; Tom Barney's got it; I've been blown away by how tightly Dougie Thompson's got it (was working on "Goodbye Stranger" for the first time last night; good lord that man has a pocket--it's almost mystical!); and so on. And that's what I'm after. (My friends seem to like it.)

 

Dave, I've heard guys like that--so busy busting a chop & sounding "flash" that rhythm goes right out the window. In a band situation that is absolutely disastrous; the whole thing implodes. (I was in a drum shop a while back, & heard this guy who was all monster chops, & all monstrous time! I mean, can you even *imagine* being someone in this guy's band, who has to keep the song going in *spite* of the drum beat?! Wait, don't answer that...) My guess is that people who hire aren't looking for that.

 

And Roger Waters is still right: at the end of the day the only question is whether it moves you--there's nothing else.

[g.]

This thread is going right where all others of its type tend to go. I think the missing ingredient is implicit, yet overlooked: the style or genre of music the bass player and line is meant to serve.

 

For many pop songs and production values it is often the case that the line be pared down to essentials. But for something instrumental with Scott Henderson and Steve Smith, or with Dennis Chambers and Scott Kinsey and Steve Taglione, it is certainly justifiable to treat the bass as more than roots and rhythm support.

 

And don't expect me to think it more than justification for your own choices if you tell me Victor Wooten or Gary Moore are wanking or making it too complicated when they play all that nice, greasy, fast bass. They always have the groove nailed while they expand the lexicon of their chosen style, just as one might argue Jaco did in ensemble.

 

Hey, its all right to be a dinosaur! Or a player with pop sensibilites. But its not the only valid game in town. In their chosen world, players of that caliber and sensibilites are hardly too busy for their own good. They give damn good value!

 

...I think maybe we've all spent too many hours at NAMM shows or in the amp room at the local music store to talk about this with focus ; }

[MattC]

Forget about flashy technique and speedy runs in our songs for a while. What about those salesmen who seem to know everything about the amps you aren't interested in but can't answer your questions because "that model just came in." Davebrownbass seemed to nail that unfortunate stereotype of salesman in his original post. I love to spend time in stores and try out more gear than I'll ever buy, and I've gotten to talk to numerous salesmen who act this way. The worst thing about these people, though, is that for all their chops and pseudo-technical jargon, they forget that younger players don't understand any of it. Time and time again I've seen young players too nervous to talk to some salesmen because they are afraid that their lack of expertise would show through. Music stores don't make a great deal of money off anyone but big touring companies and professional bands, so they they seem to give everyone else the cold shoulder. This is to bad because salesmanship, and bass playing for that matter, is not about how you can impress your customers- it is about how you can help everyone to play just a little better.

[ERIC31]

IN THE POCKET. All that flash, speed, tricks are fine for impressing other musicians but your average joe/josephine non musician can't relate. A grooving in the pocket bassline is what makes people shake their butts, tap their toes and smile.

 

If you want to be a bass shredder, knock yourself out. In my experience, the grooving, simple, in the pocket bassist will get the gig first.

 

Just my .02 cents worth.....

[g.]

templar001: Music stores don't make a great deal of money off anyone but big touring companies and professional bands, so they they seem to give everyone else the cold shoulder.

For the vanishing breed of mom'n'pop store this simply isn't true, especially in rural areas. There just aren't that many touring companies and pro bands to go around. Often it is the schools and the music students and aspiting part-timers that make the monthly overhead. Even the ubiquitous mail-orders are geared toward the low end. That should be evident with the brands and models of gear they stock the most of.

 

As far as service, sometimes salespeople in the smaller non-chain stores go too far in their enthusiams, but many of them are just people who are seekig their way in music just like any of us, who unfortunately haven't had much training in positive retail experiences.

 

is not about how you can impress your customers- it is about how you can help everyone to play just a little better.

Actually it is often about impressing the potential customer. But often it isn't too. The trick is to quickly understand what the customer is trying to say about their reason for being there, and to accomodate that.

 

 

<-- greenboy ---<<<<    coming from behind the counter after seeing customers with us against them attitudes

[_Sweet Willie_]

My soloing skills are limited. My slapping is passable. But I can do some phat finger funk, syncopated grooves, walk some solid blues and a little jazz, hit it on the one (or the one and three, or the two and four...). I'm on the rhythm and I keep the time. I can play on the beat, behind or ahead of it.

 

I don't work pro, I haven't gigged out in a while, but when I get together with folks to jam, what I can do does the trick -- brings smiles to faces and keeps the groove tight.

 

I don't have the time to develop some of my other skills and knowledge as rapidly as I'd like, but I get a little better a little bit at a time.

 

My point? There are always situations where what we can do is totally right and totally fits. There are also situations where some of us don't have what it takes -- but I look at these situations as opportunities to learn. One thing I never do is sell myself as a player that I'm not, and modesty and a good foundation has gotten me further than big talkin'.

[_Sweet Willie_]

One anecdote that fits with the opening post on this thread:

 

The other day I was at a local shop trying out a Hughes & Kettner BassBase head (pretty nice, but there are others I like better). Doin' some simple grooves and some old school R&B lines on a MIM fender P. Another brother is in the store checking out a high end, Euro 5-string (name escapes me) -- he puts it through its paces by demonstrating some massive skills and technique (speed, rhythm, cool chord changes). His playing was hot -- I was really impressed. On his way out, he interrupts his conversation w/ the salesman draped all over him to come over to me and tell me that he "digs" what I'm playing and that I'm "sounding real good." Came across sincerely, and I appreciated the comments from a player that I had just been admiring.

 

He didn't buy anything, but had the salesman's attention because of his chops. While I didn't purchase anything either, I was as likely or more likely a purchaser than the other player (I really am considering buying a new amp; I got the sense from my eavesdropping that he happened by the store and wanted to try an instrument that was new to him), but didn't draw the same attention because of my mellower, groove-focused playing (even though the $1300 H&K head would create a nice commission for any salesman!).

 

Sorry if I lead anyone off on a tangent...

 

And, BTW, I dig that G&L JB-2 jazz bass too.

[BenLoy]

Where I live...most club date bands could care less about how fast you can play or how many licks you can play.

 

All they care about is that you know (or fool them into thinking you know) every single tune they call and that you show up on time, reasonably sober.

 

It also helps if you don't hit on the bride...

[Jason Hoyt]

Am I archaic, or is there still a place for "simple" bass playing?

 

Resident Dinosaur,

Dave

I think the overall consensus is that most people play for the song. Flashy chops are just that. They are there to pull out in a solo, or for an occasional crazy 8 bar fill, but other than that, What els?! ... Look at Victor Wooten. Listen to him with Bela'Fleck, or on the Ying/Yang album. He can do more tricks than most, but he can also be reserved, even on HIS OWN SOLO ALBUM!! There is an advantage to learning stuff like this. It is improving ones' musicianship and dexterity, regardless of whether or not you ever get to use them in a song. (Maybe thats another learning point too, that G**tar store salesmen never seem to learn.) G**tarists always seem to be hell bent on showing off, maybe the poor blue collar tweaker, is just being pushed down the wrong path to enlightment(<-Zen moment) Besides, does anyone here who plays for money, reguarily need to whip out that two hand tapping technique for the bass solo in "Brown Eyed Girl"? ...Maybe the "Funky Chicken" could take on a whole new character though...

[Mike H.]

I've never "made money" in a band. In the total scope of things, I've gotten paid to have a good time, and cover the cost of a meal and a new set of strings. I guess when it becomes a job, and not fun, I'm out. You can practice round the clock and know every lick to mankind. If you can't lay down a straight ahead, simple note groove, you won't get the job. True, other types of music do require a more advanced or "flashy" line. As far as techno/hip-hop goes nowadays, I haven't heard anything that's more than a couple of notes over an odd syncopation. Bottom line, all the tones and all the licks in the world won't get you the first call for studio or fill-in work.

[Mike H.]

Originally posted by greenboy:

templar001: Music stores don't make a great deal of money off anyone but big touring companies and professional bands, so they they seem to give everyone else the cold shoulder.

For the vanishing breed of mom'n'pop store this simply isn't true, especially in rural areas. There just aren't that many touring companies and pro bands to go around. Often it is the schools and the music students and aspiting part-timers that make the monthly overhead. Even the ubiquitous mail-orders are geared toward the low end. That should be evident with the brands and models of gear they stock the most of.

 

As far as service, sometimes salespeople in the smaller non-chain stores go too far in their enthusiams, but many of them are just people who are seekig their way in music just like any of us, who unfortunately haven't had much training in positive retail experiences.

 

is not about how you can impress your customers- it is about how you can help everyone to play just a little better.

Actually it is often about impressing the potential customer. But often it isn't too. The trick is to quickly understand what the customer is trying to say about their reason for being there, and to accomodate that.

 

 

<-- greenboy ---<<<<    coming from behind the counter after seeing customers with us against them attitudes

I, too, hail from behind the counter, and what you say is true. In the rural "mom and pop" areas like us in North Dakota, it is the beginner to intermediate students that keep us in business.

 

Most often times I find that to the beginner, the "flash" factor brings the smile to their face, and shows them the potential of their instrument. The intermediate, and seasoned players don't care about flash, but more so what the product can do to benefit them the most.

[MattC]

I've got to say that in my experience in a music crazy city like detroit, there aren't many mom 'n pop stores around anymore and those that are still around don't make much more than pocket change on instrument and accessory sales. These small stores make their bread and butter from lessons. Keep this in mind- here, there are 3 Guitar Center locations within an hour's drive of my house, not to mention many large independant stores. The small stores are excellent, but they only sell to beginner players.

. Even the ubiquitous mail-orders are geared toward the low end. That should be evident with the brands and models of gear they stock the most of.

 

These places may stock mostly lower-end gear, but that is because they need to sell many more squire p-basses to make the same money as they would selling a Warwick or Tobias.

While saying that these places give the "cold shoulder" is probably a little harsh, I find that the attention I'm given in a store is directly proportional to the value of the amp I'm looking at. If two people walk into a store, undoubtedly the more obviously skilled of the two will get the most attention, while he is probably the one least in need of actual technical assistance. For this reason, I've learned to research my purchases before I go into the store so that the salesmen's attention can be given to the players who have more questions. As far as salesmen showing off, there's really nothing wrong with that, in context. If I were to go into GC and shop for a shred-made axe (which I'd never do), I'd want to be shown just how much the guitar can wail. But I distinctly remember starting out (lo those many years ago) and being not inspired, but intimidated by the massive chops of people around be. I think veteran players everywhere need to be considerate of the novice players (with the possible exception of davebrownbass's whipersnapers).

[sywot]

Dino Dave: I've made a buck or two replacing bass players who were infected with the "furious finger virus" Simple tastfull bass lines are still in style! I'm not sure what music store

you were in but it smells like G C to me. The original music vs copy music remark was stupid.

IMHO

Dino Sywot

[g.]

After recent rememberances of Ox I find it mildy ironic the twist this thread seems to be getting knotted into ; }

 

...Not seeing many shades of grey here, folks - just the all-too-common make my ford any color you want as long as its black. seems a waste of crayons.

[Jason Hoyt]

GB

...Not seeing many shades of grey here, folks - just the all-too-common make my ford any color you want as long as its black. seems a waste of crayons

MY F-150 is TEAL!!! http://images.autotrader.com/images/2002/6/28/100/590/119288672.100590386.IM1.MAIN.240x180_A.240x180.jpg I'm a self-confessed metal-nerd (although I keep branching into Funk for some reason...Damn you Bootsy! ). I like to Tap/slap/use chords, and basically make alot of noise. There. I said it...Happy?!

[g.]

Huhhhh! Yeah, I'm glad you could testify, bro! I begin to think some of our players here are so good at their roles as bassist that they don't notice that their playing is much more interesting than their description of an underlying philosophy.

 

Talking about meat and potatoes really isn't much more satisfying than talking about bad fast food ; }

[Zack]

Just a thought from one of the young-ins...

 

When I try to be flashy & play my Jaco licks (albeit a little poorly, hey, I'm 17... ) and my best fretboard taps, I am sneered at, mostly b/c the guys who see it have seen it all. However, when I hunkered down & played to the groove, I was actually complimented, as one guy said, "Now THERE'S a bassist who knows what the fuck he's doing!" I guess the point is that simple bass playing will always have a niche in the music world, and hopefully, many people will continue to realize that for years & years.

[dcr]

Zack--right. I don't think anyone here has been saying that groove playing is the *only* niche--at least, I sure wasn't saying that--but rather that it's an indispensable one, & people who can play good grooves will get a lot of good gigs, despite what dbb's guy said. Also, that gassed-up playing that doesn't groove is just a horrible waste of time. I hope that's all that was being said...

[davebrownbass]

Well, lessee,

 

Bootsy does Bootsy, Vic does Vic, Jaco does Jaco (or did), Larry does Larry, Flea does Flea.

 

It seems to me that these guys developed a unique voice, and the music evolved around there.

 

So my point is, I talk to this guy who says he has to ape licks from these guys, flashy panny, to get work...and insists that's where its at.

 

Now, I believe that if you have something to say as a bass "artist" the world has room for you (although, its true, most jazz sales are made to fellow musicians and not the unwashed public).

 

I guess I'm saying that I believe, and get paid for, I'm supposed to provide the bass foundation to whatever music I'm playing. I may have some meager chops to mess around with, but I don't use them.

 

If I wanted to play in a cover band, I'd do the same thing. If I played in "Me and My Monkey" a local "kick a@@" Beatles tribute band, I'd play Paul's lines.

 

If I developed some really unique fast chops, I'd either put them on the shelf, perhaps try to impress fellow musicians with, or develop some kind of music around them (like the Flectones.)

 

I guess this guy was one part show-off and one part salesman, trying to convince me that I needed this Peavey modelling amp to get work. It is gratifying to see so many people say, "I got chops, but I really don't need or use them. If the need arises, I'll make it."

 

Still bassy after all these years,

 

Dino

[g.]

All I've really gotten out of the original rant and the restatement is that the guy was pushy as a salesperson, couldn't lock in to a good demo tonally or performance-wise, and that makes it bad to want to play around on the bass ; }

[wraub]

I am currently in a situation where the groove is the whole thing, do not overplay, do not pass go, no $200.00 either. Got a cd, full band with lots of overdubs, but now it's me and vocals and guitar for a gig this Sat.

This is a situation where "just play the roots and the groove" is a lifesaver! All I know is I have to hold everything together...

But that's what we do, right? Take some notes or charts or suggestions and create a part that makes the song what it is, or more than it is...

Perhaps I'm rambling, but it seems to me that in many situations, as players, we are called upon to improvise, yet be "the rock" the groove depends on, regardless of familiarity with the actual song...

And it seems to me that this is a real test of musicianship, keeping up with changes you don't yet know, while keeping every aspect of the song in mind, to inform your next move and propel the song to the next change...

I don't know, maybe I'll just try to look cool while I play... LOL

 

Peace,

wraub

 

" I'm just buggin' 'bout your booty, baby."

[g.]

Funny that I should appear to be taking one position or another here, given my music store modus operandi of starting with a simple groove and gradually elaborating on that, maybe even devolving into various thumps on different open strings and positions up and down the neck on each of them slowly to hear the tonal balance and the articulation.

 

Sometimes I work it up into a solo launcher but even then to my way of thinking I'm not feeling like I'm outside the groove boundaries, though others have remarked that some of my little individual quirks that I have turned into tricks are pretty cool. But I always feel rather humble when i hear a shredder who can keep it grooving and has much more than that going to.

 

being the best YOU is what its all about in my book, for each and every person. When you are just playing recreationally one neither has to be a breadwinner or a certifiable monster. Got nobody to satisfy but oneself, no bandleader to say what is money and what is demerits.

 

Just finding our own grooves, no pressure, right?

[Tom Capasso]

I have come to suspect that some music store people have lots of time on their hands, and work on these techniques while no one is around. Without having to play this stuff in a band, and without any guidance, they don't have the "musical-ness" that they may well have in other areas of their playing. I also have seen that some music store workers are idiots that can't get past themselves to see what the customer wants, or is thinking. I took my daughter and a friend to a local GC Saturday, where a nice young person took time to serve us in every way he could, so I know there are some good ones out there.

 

As to the dino stuff, I probably play a bit more into songs than your average player. Almost no slap, no tap. I am not the most technically proficient, but people like what I bring...

 

Dino Tom

[Graybass]

Cool thread - here's my 2c.

 

While it is important to have chops and talent, it is VITAL that those chops fit the song. We some times forget that 99.9% of the time Bass players are solely responsible for making everyone else on the stage sound good.

[ibescotty]

I would summarize my playing like this. "Tow the line". That's really all I do. Nothing to flashy ever. It's just not called for that often. I can slap when needed to though I'm practicing that to get better. I can Tap a little but really why would I want to. I've never used bass chords in a song so I really only use them while noodling. They sound neat. When I've tried them in a song they just push everyone else out.

 

Sounds like a typical over bearing GC worker. Tried out a Bass Cab at GC a while back and the sales guy had to sit down and show me his chops. I was wondering if he was trying to make me feel bad or something. So I just did a bunch of arpeggios to get the range of sound and left.