I'm finally a victim of anti 5-string bias

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Bastid E:

i was in a band that played most stuff in dropped d with a song or two in e and e flat. perfect setting for a 5 string, right? the guitar player asked me to get a four and tune down because it was confusing to him that my fingers were landing in different spots than the last guy. wtf???

Perhaps this whole five-string problem, like so many other sticky band issues, boils down to the intelligence of the guitarist in question.

[Dan South]

Originally posted by turkish:

i know alot of people who are awesome with a 5 but i always think of the best guys and they all primarily play 4's, jaco, geddy, marcus, stanley,bootsy, all these guys did it on 4, so to me going to 5 is like cheating if you can't cut it on 4. that's just my opinion, don't be offended

That's kind of like saying that the best basketball players didn't dunk. That was a different era. The equipment that was available was different, and those guys used what they had to great advantage. But a new generation of players - Victor, Gary, Steve Bailey, Matt Garrison, John Pattitucci, etc. - have embraced the currently available technology and are making great music with extended range basses. Furthermore, some of the "old masters" boxed themselves in by using older gear and techniques. Jamerson lost favor with LA producers partly because the "old flatwound" sound that he championed in the 60's didn't work as well with the music of the 70's, but James refused to change. (Incidentally, Jamerson is my favorite bassist of all time. I'm not trying to slam him personally, just trying to make a point about the evolution of gear.)

 

In the end, it's not the tools but the vision and the skill of the craftsman that matters.

[61Pbass]

Perhaps the whole "anti-five-string" thing is a reluctance on some people's part to embrace a new (not really THAT new) idea.

 

Tom mentioned the "you've got to have a Strat" thing. In the Nashville scene you've "got to have a Tele". I work for and am bandleader for a country artist. When we needed a new lead guitarist I hired my brother (OK, everybody yell nepotism-LOL) who happens to play Les Pauls and Jacksons through a Marshall amp, DEFINITELY not Nashville standard. When he showed up for the first gig everyone was VERY sceptical until they heard his tone. Luckily the guys I have selected for the band are open minded, but that is basically my point. To knock a bass only because it has five strings is ridiculous. It's the same damned instrument with five extra notes added on the bottom end. If you're not overplaying your new found extended range the only problem is your guitarist's limited musical vision.

[Datsame]

Hi,

 

I used to be in a top forty rock style band. The opportunity to buy a 5-string suddenly arose and I took it. Leading up to and just after the purchase the (insert nasty profanity here) singer seemed all excited about me getting the bass. But Just recently, about the 1 year anniversary of the before mentioned bands demise, I found out that (insert nasty profanity here) singer had a big problem with me getting the 5-string because he thought it would make me want to play Korn or Limp Bizkit. I just can't understand why someone could be so stupid to think that the only reason to own a 5-string is to play heavy music.

[funkyfathead]

It all depends on what you like. I personally do not care for a 5 string bass. I get 5 string vertigo, and It just doesn't feel natural for me. I prefer the look of a 4 string over the 5 or 6, but really looks are not that important. In summary play what you like.

[g.]

61Pbass:Tom mentioned the "you've got to have a Strat" thing. In the Nashville scene you've "got to have a Tele". I work for and am bandleader for a country artist. When we needed a new lead guitarist I hired my brother (OK, everybody yell nepotism-LOL) who happens to play Les Pauls and Jacksons through a Marshall amp, DEFINITELY not Nashville standard. When he showed up for the first gig everyone was VERY sceptical until they heard his tone. Luckily the guys I have selected for the band are open minded, but that is basically my point.

When the drummer and I were auditioning guitarists for my three-piece we had a guy come in who had nothing but a Les Paul goldtop -- and a Line6. I knew he was a Player, but wondered if it was going to work with material we had already selected. There was some Surf, some Hendrix, some of the twangier Creedence, blues that was done originally on Strats, some Stevie Ray...

 

Well, this cat had it! Between his mastery of the instrument, his understanding of the styles and stylings, and the presets he had built for the Line6, he could evoke anything we wanted and also imprinted it with his own thing... It was also pretty interesting to see him flicking the toggle switch and going for broke as we stretched out on a Hendrix number ; }

 

He spoke on the instrument; it was a good thing we didn't roll our eyes once we saw a 24-3/4" scale and PAFs.

[61Pbass]

AMEN!

[ibescotty]

Originally posted by 61Pbass:

Tom mentioned the "you've got to have a Strat" thing. In the Nashville scene you've "got to have a Tele". I work for and am bandleader for a country artist. When we needed a new lead guitarist I hired my brother (OK, everybody yell nepotism-LOL) who happens to play Les Pauls and Jacksons through a Marshall amp, DEFINITELY not Nashville standard. When he showed up for the first gig everyone was VERY sceptical until they heard his tone. Luckily the guys I have selected for the band are open minded, but that is basically my point. To knock a bass only because it has five strings is ridiculous. It's the same damned instrument with five extra notes added on the bottom end. If you're not overplaying your new found extended range the only problem is your guitarist's limited musical vision.

Exactly!! People spout off sometimes without even hearing your gear. If they have a good valid point after they've heard you play then fine. You can decide to take their advice or move on. Don't start in on what guitar you should play through and what gear goes with that until you've actually heard what mojo the player has going on. It might be valid or just need a tweak here and there. Heck as a player we all like to think that our equipment choices shape the sound of our 'art' as much as our playing. If your on an equal playing field with the rest of the musicians in your situation you surely want to feel that your part has your individual stamp on it. Now of course there are exceptions to every rule and nothing is set in stone.

[Lee Flier]

Bastid -

 

Of course no one has a right to tell another musician what instrument to play. By the same token, if your sound isn't right for a particular band you don't have to play with them. Find somebody who appreciates your particular style for what it is, or else be willing to adapt your style to fit what they are, if you want to play with them that bad.

 

I agree that anyone who suddenly tells one of their players their sound sucks and they should buy something else, when they knew exactly what they were getting up front, is just an asshole. But so is anyone who insists that the whole band should adapt to THEIR tone which may not fit.

 

In thinking about why my band works well together and no one feels like they are disrespected, I think some of it is because we all are basically committed to the same aesthetic (and I mean "artistic vision" here, not aesthetic as in "looks"). We already know each other's basic style and sound and if we didn't dig it in the first place we wouldn't be playing together.... DUH. When recording, we all discuss what kinds of sounds we are after on each song, and choose our gear accordingly. It would be stupid to get into a band with somebody who isn't compatible with you and then get on a control trip trying to make them sound like something they aren't.

 

If somebody already in a band suddenly brings in something new, the other people in the band may or may not dig it. This might be the bass player bringing in his new 5 string, or it might be a songwriter who hears a different sound for a particular song than the band usually does, or whatever. I suppose this discussion is largely about diplomacy and balance, like a few others have said. The best way for a band leader or songwriter to handle situations like this is probably to say something like "I'm hearing a bass sound kinda like McCartney on 'Taxman'" rather than "I think you should play a Rickenbacker 4001"... just describe the sound and let the player decide how to get that sound with what they've got, rather than dictating the gear. If the player can deliver the sound and the other person still has a problem, that's just lame.

 

Then again, my bandmates and I make gear suggestions to each other all the time and nobody gets offended. I might say to the drummer "maybe your metal snare would work better on this song than the wood one" or the bass player might say to me "could you try the Tele on this song instead of the Les Paul?" and it's not a big deal. I suppose it's because like I said, we already know the mutual respect is there. If anything our drummer appreciates that I pay attention to him enough to notice the tonal differences between his different snare drums or cymbals, and I'm the same about the differences between my different guitars, amps, effects, etc. It's all in how everybody looks at it I guess.

 

--Lee

[The Fonz]

lee,

 

i understand the need to have everyone agree on how the band should sound as a unit, but that still doesn't allow for this particular situation. a five string is a tool that allows a bass player to add to his range and therefore opens opportunity to enhance what the band is doing. if he starts going low and you don't like the way it sounds, tell him so. but what happens if he goes low and it makes you say "holy shit! where did that amazing sound come from and why weren't we doing this before?"

 

as far as an instrument itself having a specific tone, bass players spend a lot of cash on gear making sure that they not only have the tone they want, but the most variety in a single set up. i rave about my g&l because if someone says sound like a p-bass or sound like a stingray, or sound like a lump of feces, or whatever, it can. the fact that it had a b string as well as the standard four was irrelevant. it's a little different from the guitar issue where the instruments most prized are those that were created long ago and not changed that therefore have a singular sound.

 

one must certainly find the proper personality and sonic ideas in a bandmate. however the fact that he might play a five string shouldn't enter into the equation. would race matter? it's the same thing when you make an assumption on who the guy is gonna be when on what he pulls out of his gig bag rather than what he does with it. if your bass player comes in with a five string, let him stumble around on it for a few rehearsals. i guarantee you that once he's used to the extra string he'll still be able to do exactly what he did on a four, sound exactly the same doing it,and in the long run give you as the songwriter as well as himself as the bass player more range from his corner.

[Ryan Griffith]

I'd have to agree with Bastid here, as well. In actuality, the tonal capabilities in a given bass won't reside primarily (or much at all) with whether it's a 4- or 5-string. A bassist could easily waltz into band practice with a brand new active 4-string, with a hi-fi preamp & a sizzlin', modern tone (which isn't inherently bad!) and the band wants more of an "organic, vintage" tone. Instant clash of concept with a 4-string! Personally, I came to practice with a passive 5 which I think fits our sound... it's not a vast departure from what I was using before. The tone honestly isn't "out" at all, and the pickups are tried & true (MM & Jazz).

 

As an aside, I have to say that I've got myself a better bass too.. I surprised myself today by playing along to a Yes tune & getting a reasonable facsimile of Squire's line! Something like that wasn't quite as easy on my beefy Fender 4's, as much as I still like 'em! What a bass!

[Ben]

Hehehe, let's hear it for the amazing low-price MTD's! There is life after Leo! (Come to think of it, the pride of G&L's lineup is the L2500.)

[The Bear Jew]

Gryff...

There ya go.

If you're coming to rehearsal with something that can essentially duplicate the sounds you've already been using with the ability to expand into other sounds, I don't see how this can be a problem. And if you're willing to put in the extra time to learn to play with that wacky "extra" string, all the better.

 

Considering that you guys don't seem to have any particular preference for a certain visual style, your guitarist should just shut up and let you play your 5-string in peace. After all, he should be glad that your new instrument has inspired you to play more (and theoretically better!) Sounds like this guy is a little inarticulate about expressing his dislike for your bass -- he can't even adequately tell you what exactly he doesn't like about it.

 

Tell ya what, if our bassist brought a cool-sounding and -looking new instrument like your bass to rehearsal, I think we'd all be pretty psyched. Me especially, because I wouldn't have to worry about him throwing my P-bass around Nirvana style.

[KYGC]

I know when I switched from a 4 string to a 5 string, the stupider members of my band automatically assumed I was going to start playing like I was in a death metal/rap band. B-B-B-B-C-C-C-C.... yep. Of course that was not my reason for acquiring a fifth string. Anyways I figure there's a of stereotype surrounding the low B - if you have it you'll abuse it. At least that's what ignorant guitarists seem to think. My $.02

[Tom Capasso]

Lee, it sounds like you are in a great situation. You yourself are openminded, and describe your mates the same way. You have a vision for your music that isn't stuck. And your music sounds great. You know you're lucky...

 

greenboy/61pbass - your examples prove the point. The only issue is if the player can do the job. Great stories. Oh yeah - 61p - nepotism !!! (this from an Italian...).

 

Originally posted by Bastid E:

... or sound like a lump of feces, ...

OK - I'll take that bet. My Gibson humbucker can out-crap your G&L any day of the week. By the way, how do you get that l of f sound - is there a special toggle?

 

Happy weekend to all!!

Tom

[Graybass]

I must have had remarkably open minded band mates. In 27 years nobody has ever critisied me for my gear choice or for showing up with something new. I remember rolling up to church to play one Sunday morning with my new 6 never having played a 6 live or rehearsed with it and the general reaction was: "Wow - go hard!!".

 

The main point to me is, even if I buy new gear, I still sound like me. My tone may be slightly different but it is still me. If you can say this your band mates haven't got a leg to stand on when they critisise.

 

As a litmus test, blindfold your protagonist and play both basses and ask him to tell you which was which. If he can't tell or isn't sure - end of story. Make sure you stay off the B string when you do this - that may be a dead giveaway.

[g.]

I want to restate that both luthiers and pickup designers have told me it is tough to put a 5-string package together that sounds exactly the same on the E-A-D-G strings, due to different neck mass/resonance, and the demands of voicing the B string and not changing the pickup sound elsewhere.

 

Not to say that it has proven impossible, or that there aren't some good examples of 5-strings with very similar E-A-D-G characteristics out there, but you might just be the guy with a bass that sounds great but differs from its four-string counterpart, and be blindfolding a Golden Ears Rejecter -- er, Retriever ; }

[Dan South]

Not totally on topic, but my active basses all have readily accessible switches for passive mode. I prefer passive mode on many songs. I would avoid any active bass that doesn't provide this feature.

[Ryan Griffith]

As a litmus test, blindfold your protagonist and play both basses and ask him to tell you which was which. If he can't tell or isn't sure - end of story. Make sure you stay off the B string when you do this - that may be a dead giveaway.

I think he could tell the difference, if he listened attentively. It's got slightly more punch than my Fenders, and is a little brighter (due in a minor way to the newer strings). I think that overall, for what we're doing (under the huge umbrella of "rock") this bass' sound is an improvement, but it doesn't sound exactly like the old Fenders. My previous main bass is a fretless Fender Jazz, strung with TI flats. A beautiful sounding bass, to be sure, but it was rather meek outside of the few tunes that really scream "fretless." The MM pup and strings being stopped on metal frets & not bare rosewood are resulting in more defined attack, which I think is a good thing, unless you prefer muffled, vague bass... which some people do. This same guitarist told me I'm too loud recently too, an assessment not shared by the other guys (and I did pose this question to them to get a general survey). I get the feeling he's a fan of quiet, unobtrusive, backgoundy bass. At this point I'll throw in my agreement with Lee & CMDN... my sound may not have changed radically, but I see it as an improvement. If it doesn't fit in well with this group, I'll go back to my Fenders till I find people who appreciate the direction I'm moving in. Luckily for me, it appears there's only the 1 guy who doesn't appreciate the MTD, and I don't think it'll turn into a big stink, but merely a minor annoyance. The greater subject matter of the unfounded anti-5 bias was more or less the intent of the thread, and my experience only the catalyst to get it started!

 

I see the points in a couple arguments here... if you're sound doesn't fit with your band, either change basses or change bands! And, nobody should dictate what tools you use to accomplish your musical goals either. Unless they're paying you!

 

Who'd have thought I'd create a monster with this thread... 75+ posts. Yikes! Great discussion, all!

[wantednothing]

I prefer four strings myself, with simple logical reasons. I have smaller hands, which explains why I play a short scale danelectro longhorn (a cheap plywood tone machine). My bias against "five-stringers" comes from the temptation to only play the low down and dirty. I barely use all four strings as it is, as well as the high register on my neck. It makes me sick to hear people who play entirely just thumpin' the b string. If the sound of a five string works, use it. because i am with the majority of people here who believe you should have your own tone, but ask yourself why you need five strings.

[Bill C from Nashvegas]

I have fairly small hands too, but a 5 string wasn't difficult to adjust to. Of course, I prefer a narrow neck--my Warwick seems perfect for a 5, but the Yamaha 5 strings seemed way too wide for my hands. The main reason I prefer a 5 isn't the low B--although it's nice to play in D and hit the low D--but to me it's the flexibility of playing the low E at the 5th fret and doing the fingering patterns from there. For certain songs--for example in F--the 5 is actually easier on my hands because I have the option of doing everything on the 6th fret, it's a shorter reach.

[g.]

I love the low C# that I can get on a 5-string (and I suppose that D is... all right). But I hate the B, C, and Eb -- especially that B! If people can't avoid that note they should be forced to play way up high on their D and G strings or they really aren't valid musicians.

 

<-- greenboy ---<<<<    i know what is best! no soup for you!

[groovehead]

Why do so many band leaders feel the need to control the musical contributions of their band mates? To me, being in a band means honoring each other's musical contributions and influences. As long as you are not playing something so off base with the direction of the band that it makes the music suffer, he should just shut up and allow you to be an artist and contribute to the enitr sound of the group. I personally have a problem with band leaders like this and even quit a band because the band leader was always telling me what to play. Turns out, that band went through many bassists for the same reason.

[Bobby Bass]

I know it's a pain to carry 2 basses. But gradually work the 5 string into the songs 1 or 2 then 3 or 4. Band leaders usually don't like too much change. You got to sneak up on them slowly. Before they know it you'll be playing the 5 all you want to. Oh, I'm just a 4 string player trying to fight off the pull to get a 5 string. Good luck.

[RobT]

Originally posted by Bill C from Nashvegas:

I have fairly small hands too, but a 5 string wasn't difficult to adjust to. Of course, I prefer a narrow neck--my Warwick seems perfect for a 5, but the Yamaha 5 strings seemed way too wide for my hands. The main reason I prefer a 5 isn't the low B--although it's nice to play in D and hit the low D--but to me it's the flexibility of playing the low E at the 5th fret and doing the fingering patterns from there. For certain songs--for example in F--the 5 is actually easier on my hands because I have the option of doing everything on the 6th fret, it's a shorter reach.

I gotta agree with yo there Bill. I am a smaller handed player who went from a baseball bat neck Fender to a five string Ibanez. I love the ergonomics of the thing but hate the tight string spacing along with some of the tonal characteristics. It does offer more flexibility in where I play certain things and does actually make certain things easier to play!

 

Your bass should be a tool like a hammer or a saw. No one would tell a carpenter that he should only use a Stanley hammer as opposed to some other brand. If your hammer (or bass) does the job well (sounds good and fits the music) who cares what brand it is, how many strings it has or what it cost.

 

RobT

[NickT]

I think it was Roscoe Beck who said "A purchase receipt for a five string is not a liscence to transpose everything into B." (Damn)

 

PS: The guitar player is always too loud. I have yet to meet one who is not. The drummer is on your side, the guitar player isn't, what does the singer say? I would have thought that he might be the more ego-driven.

 

PPS: Failing diplomacy you have a nice large piece of wood, (heftier than your old one I believe). USE IT. I'm sure MTD put a decent finish on the body so any blood should just wipe off, and any dent will just add character.

[Dan South]

Thought to ponder. Some people have made the argument that if 4 was good enough for (pick the legendary player of your choice), it should be good enough for players today. I won't disagree. The four-string bass is an excellent instrument. Many players will play fours for their entire careers and never miss the extended range.

 

But many players play uprights and never miss the benefits of an electric. If James Jamerson, Bootsy Collins, Paul McCartney, Duck Dunn, Jaco Pastorius, et al. had looked at the electric and said, "If upright was good enough for Mingus, Chambers, Blanton, Brown, etc., it's good enough for me," the music of today would be fundamentally different than it is today. It's ironic to see these players held up as champions of bass tradition, because in their prime they were champions of bass EVOLUTION.

 

What's wrong with a little evolution? I see no compelling argument whatsoever against the use of extended range basses as long as they're played tastefully (the REAL issue) and that their tone is acceptable.