I'm finally a victim of anti 5-string bias

[Ryan Griffith]

A bit over a month ago I finally graduated into the 5-string world with an MTD Heir (a remarkable bass!) and I've made some quick progress with it, and the more I play it, the more I appreciate what a fine instrument it is. I'm also realizing that it's superior to my MIM Fenders in most ways, although I still have a soft spot for my Fenders too. But in terms of design, tone, playability, and of course the 5th string, it's just a better axe. So now, only a month later, my guitarist is whining & asking me to bring my old 4-strings back, citing a number of reasons, none of them compelling. I ought to practice the 5-string at home till I'm better (I honestly am not that bad! It's only been a month anyways) and the tone of the four strings sound better (I guess that's subjective, but this MTD cuts through like nothing else), but it all boils down to the fact that he doesn't like 5-strings & has said as much in the past. What a pain it is dealing with peoples' silly bias against 5-strings. Guess you don't really realize it till you're dealing with it, huh? I'd hate to have this beautiful instrument collecting dust in my apartment, so I'm going to avoid bringing the Fenders back unless he pesters, pleads, begs & cajoles the hell out of me, which he's inclined to do when he really wants something. Oh well. Welcome to the world of 5-stringers, eh? Just thought I'd rant on that annoying subject to some of you who must understand what I'm going through here! What do you all think... should I stick to my guns? I figure that since I'm the bassist I should be the one who chooses the tools for the job.

 

ok, enough of that for me... thanks for hearing me vent!

[g.]

I just tell 'em like it or lump it. When I was a multi-instrumentalist I got tired of humping tons of gear and decided that if I just felt like playing certain instruments, I would do that and wokred with people that liked the same coming back toward them.

 

If you are a hired gun I know it's not that simple. But congrats on getting into something that digs you and you dig it!

[Ryan Griffith]

greenboy,

 

thanks for the words of encouragement. As I said, I like my Fenders ok, and I'm gonna hang on to em... no harm in having a 4-string around. But this bass is just plain better & more fun to play. I think I will just tell him to jam it... I know the drummer is digging this bass too. Anyways, I'm no hired gun, so I suppose it's all up to me anyways.

[jeremy c]

It's a cruel world out there.

 

One of my friends (and former student) plays in a blues band. He's got one of the nicest Sadowsky basses I have ever heard. Then he bought an old Fender and brought it to the band and they all said, "yeah, now that's a REAL bass!".

 

A drummer I play with hates my "battery bass" as he calls my (active) Paul Reed Smith 5 string. "Bring the Fender", he says. I told him I'll bring it if he brings the Yamaha drums. (He has three sets). Then he went and sold the Yamahas.

 

There was a guy on the Bottom Line who was handed a

Fender and told to play it on his gigs even though he had some nice basses. Later he got fired for some jive reason by the same jerk leader.

 

When I bought my Fender in 1971, everyone said, "great, you sound better", Then by the end of the 70's everyone was saying it was junk, I should have bought a pre-CBS (what, when I was 12?) or I should change the bridge, change the pickups, change the nut, etc. Now everyone says, "great bass...and it's all original"

 

Play the instrument you want to play and the hell with all of them.

[Jay J.]

the world of basses is much different from the world of guitars, and people need to understand that first of all. and in most cases other than you and your band people don't really notice what you are playing, at least I didn't untill I started playing myself. so I would just go with what works and sounds best.

People who play guitar are usually fender nuts, just because most guitarists play a fender or a gibson. it is simple for them in that way (SG or strat/tele) there seems to be a bigger variety of basses out there. uless people know the industry the world of bass gear can be confusing.

play what you like and what sounds good. you don't tell your guitarist how to play guitar "I assume" and he should not tell you how to play bass.

[bassaddik]

if your guitarist says he likes 4 strings- walk up and cut his b and g strings- there you go... i was told by another jerk leader who has sold 75ooo,ooo records to not play my 6 on the gig- so i went to 5- he wanted 4 and i told him i could do that if he could sings his songs in the key he recorded them in- he was a big, big star in the 70s and he said there were no 5 strinsg then- itold him him there were no wireles,Tritons and Kurzweils, not Meyers sound system- no Steinberger guiatrs - all of which were being employed by him and the rest of the band- and because God is great, i no longer have to put up with his horsecrap and have a great gig and a human boss- can you guess who this was?

[Ryan Griffith]

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone! And Adrian, I don't believe I'll hazard a guess as to who you'd ber referring to! One of the reasons this guy wants me to bring the Fenders is that I'm still adjusting to the 5 & I'm chipping some notes here & there. Nothing drastic, mind you, but I still get a couple strings confused now & then. I was told when I bought it that it takes a good couple months to adjust to the B string, and I figure it'll be even longer than that till it's as intuitive for me as a four has become. At any rate, I'm hesitant to indulge this suggestion of his as I fear it may be an excuse to get me to ditch the MTD, and then down the road he'll start saying the 4 strings sound better & all, which he already told me too. Luckily the drummer loves the new bass, so if I really put my feet down then I won't have a whole band against me! As greenboy said, it'd be another matter if I was a hired gun, but this is a collaborative thing, so I think it's up to me which bass I use... thanks again for the encouragement!

[bassaddik]

seriously , man- you gotta put the 4s away and SHED on the 5- its rough, but you gotta IMMERSE yourself in 5- i just went back to 6- so i am ONLY playing 6- to get it well under my fingers.. just play your 5- if you leave it now- you lose what you built- its coming.. that i can assure you of..

[Jim T.]

McGryff, I play 6 stringers exclusively. Tell your guitarist that you don't tell him what to play and you expect the same respect from him regarding your choice of instrument/direction. I get this from time to time and have decided that if my survival income doesn't come from that playing situation than I'd rather play with more open minded people. If it's a recording studio session gig, then I have to give 'em what they ask for if I can't convince them otherwise.

About two weeks of several hours per day practice should get you there. I don't recommend switching back and forth between four and five string until you have the 5 down. You'll just drive yourself crazy and may not improve fast enough to convince the doubters.

As far as dealing with your whiney til he gets what he wants guitarist, the "broken record" answer method on your part may help. Something like: "I hear you, but I've made my choice and it'll be solid soon with a bit more practice-whaddya wanna rehearse next?" Hang in there. You deserve a nice instrument.

[Wally Malone]

I'm with Adrian, shed with that puppy. I've got my first gig this Sunday with a variety band that does weddings and corporate gigs (the pay is great). It's been years since I've had to learn so many new tunes that I've never played before. I hadn't used my six string except for the jazz gigs that I do, but with this group I started using the six from the beginning and it feels and sounds great. It's been a heavy load month with all the new material from that band and also put new shows together for the summer festival season with the two bands that my wife and I have, one jazz group and one a r&b group. Along with the demands of my day gig and all the negotiations going on is the reason I haven't been as active posting this month, but I've taken time to read everything. Back to the subject. I played in a band that presented a blues history educational performance and played my Kubicki Ex-Factor. The leader always wanted me to get a Fender. I actually approached Fender at the time and was able to get an endorsement for both myself and the guitar player that enabled us to get them for cost. Never did buy it. The leader and his wife had another baby and he had to play Mister Mom while she worked her lucrative day gig, therefore he couldn't do daytime school gigs anymore.

 

Wally

[Ben]

McGryff, hang in there, I switched to 5 strings about a year ago after playing 4 for more than 30 years. I can't go back to 4, every time I pick up a 4 I feel like something is missing. Tell your guitar player it's no business of his what axe you play.

 

Hey, Adrian, kool post!

[Carl1266]

I am with everybody here, but I also say: take him seriously. You say yourself that you are not as good on the 5-String yet. Maybe you have to practice a little more or play some songs on the 4. It could be, that some mistakes really throw him off. And maybe "cutting through" is not the best sound.

But in the end you have to decide what is the best bass for your band.

[The Bear Jew]

Hey Guys...

Tell ya what:

Since I play both guitar and bass, I can see this argument from both sides.

 

I own a very nice American Fender P-bass. I use it in the band where I play bass. I never hear complaints about it. I used it for every song on the band's new album. Sounds great -- classic.

 

In my other band (where I play guitar), I asked our bassist to use my bass instead of his 5-string. Why? Well, it's pretty simple. He has a very corny-sounding, cheapo 5-string -- I think it's a Hohner. It's very "modern" looking, which doesn't match the sound of the band. It has active pick-ups, and they sound terrible with a distortion pedal, which is kind of essential to the sound of this band.

 

I really wouldn't care if he played a 5-string, as long as he could make it look cool (which is easy if you get a nice bass) and sound cool (also easy if you get a nice bass). The songs would definitely be the same whether he plays a 5-string or a 4, and I certainly would like him to be as comfortable as possible. Luckily for us, he likes playing my Fender (it's an excellent bass -- we both love the way it sounds), and we (everyone in the band) agree that it's the right sound and look for the band.

 

McGryff -- Maybe some of the issues I mentioned are involved in your case?

[Lee Flier]

Wow, lots of latent hostility among bass players! Who would've thunk...

 

Well, here's a perspective from one of those evil guitar players. I agree with Erik, I can kinda see both sides. My only question would be: is the 5 string just a personal goal for you as a bass player, or is it really the right sound for your band? Cuz I mean, I can't picture our bass player ever switching to 5 string (and neither can he). It just wouldn't work for us, or if it ever did it'd be a MAJOR adjustment.

 

Maybe your personal direction as a player is moving away from the people you currently play with, and you need to find other people to play with. Or maybe it's just an adjustment period for them and they'll get like it eventually. Or maybe it's your own ego telling you that you need to "move up" to a 5 string when you really don't. Or maybe it's just THEIR ego and they need to get over it. All of these things are possibilities, and of course you and your bandmates are the only ones who can know for sure.

 

--Lee

[g.]

Perhaps a fifth string is a separate issue from "tone", yep. The fives and sixes I play seem to be tonally amenable (or is it the way I use my rig?) so I don't have problems there.

 

Definitely got to get the what-string-your-on thing woodshedded out, and the damping of course, but I would think some on-the-job training at practices shouldn't be too much to ask as well.

 

Ironically, I often try to play lines in their original octave, but once bandmates hear the low stuff they often ask me to at least hit certain signposts in the song with the extra range. For that matter I've heard a million 4-string players play lines in the money position that were originally done an octave higher. Maybe they aren't set up to make a full sound in the original range because of instrument, string choice, pickup setup, EQ, or tweeter issues. Again, this type of issue might be solvable with many basses of more modern design, but they aren't necessarily delivering that kind of tone by default...

[g.]

Sheesh, Lee, no doubt many bass players have felt that they've been asked to sit in the back of the bus long enough. Lots of the bass players I've met since I started playing seem to have a whipped dog mentality, or some smoldering just underneath the crusted lava ; }

 

Many of the cover tunes I've been asked to do are thud-on-root for 5 minutes (and there ain't a lot of harmonic motion there either -- often none) while the drummer makes whoopie (funny I never hear bitching about double kick figures all over the place!) and the guitar gets to play hero once again. But I do them, and mess with doublings, articulation, picking and tone position along the string, alternate fingerings for some sections, and actually have quite a bit of fun sounding huge and they like the extra dimension I bring to the support.

[dcr]

bassadik--man alive, from what you've said on this & other threads, it sounds like your old boss was a real piece of work! For crying out loud. I guess he just knows the way he likes it. Uh huh, uh huh.

[BNC]

I startd out on a 5 thinking it was necessary, but then switched to 4, the 5 is now a "just incase somebody in the studio demands" it bass. The thing about all of these replies that I must question is the sound issue. A 5 is the same as the 4 unless you play notes below the 5th fret of the B string, the only difference is fingerings. I know that different basses sound different, but if you have 2 basses of the same make and model, just different # of strings, it should not make a difference. If the 5 really sounds that different, you might be over using those extra low notes. I don't find much difference between 4 and 5 except that there is an extra string, wider neck, and smaller string spacing.

 

Like others have said, unless you are a hired gun, pick what you want and the rest of them will deal with it. I used to play with a blues band who (the band and almost all others in this local group of bluesmen) was very traditional (Fender everyhting, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle..). I have used an active Carvin fretless from the begining (quilt top, does not look like Fender) and they never had a problem with it. If you use the bass well it will not matter, it is the musician not the guitar.

 

One more thing, the guy that played with the 70's star who sold 75,000,000 records, who is he?

[Mike H.]

If it's comfy for you, use it. They'll live.

[Ryan Griffith]

Thanks for the continued replies, everyone! I'll respond to the dissenting opinions with the utmost of respect here. I don't think having a 5th string affects the tone that much. If an active, modern sound is not what's appropriate, then a passive, more "traditional" sounding one is. In such a case, one could always play a passive Fender-style 5-string. A fifth string adds 5 more notes, and technically speaking, that's it. A D-tuner would work too, but a 5th string provides a couple other notes & no lever to dork with.

I have a great-lookin' MTD bass, all passive. It's got a MM/J pickup config, so it's nothing too "out." It mixes better than my Fenders, I feel. Maybe wanting to be sitting in the mix better is an ego thing, but playing a 5th string isnt, personally. It's simply a more versatile tool. I played trombone before this, and it was very common for bone players to have an instrument with an F attatchment valve, adding a few more notes & alternate positions, and nobody would complain if you brought that to jazz or concert band, or orchestra. Bass trombones commonly have two valves! It's the same thing to me... I see the extended range as an advantage, although there's nothing wrong with 4 strings either. No law says you have to play exclusively in the lowest octave of a 5-string, and I don't. I don't regard it as ego-driven... if anything else I can give more to the music by having more harmonic movement with the added notes, and not have to settle for hopping up an octave to that D or Eb. Voila... smoother bass lines!

 

Just my 2 cents!

 

Mucho respect to all, including those with differing opinions on 5-strings!

[bassaddik]

dcr youre right, and i should stop my commments, i guess -though well desereved--- but lately ive been seeing the same situation happen to people and it gets me- it makes no sense.. if im playing the part. what does it matter? because i have 6 strings doesnt mean im playing a solo all the time ( though i agree with the great Rocco Prestia that i feel like im AM playing like a solo by evvolving my bass lines and trying to make them bouncy and fresh- Chuck Rainey is a master of this, he gets to " overplay" but does it so well and seamlessly that others dont take notice, listen to Steely Dans Royal Scam and check out Chuck all ove the place and the groove NEVER suffers)

i just dont get that 5 strings is wrong for anything!! if the song doesnt require a lo b- DONT PLAY IT!! is the mere PRESENCE of the lo B the issue here? come on, guys- i can do a funk gig, a blues gig, a jazz gig.. whatever on my 6- the range is there for when i need it- i strongly disagree with anyone that says only 4 is right .. that is just close minded-- tell your guitarist to plug right into the amp- tell him not to use distortion, or chorus, he needs his sound palette- why cant you use yours- as far as my experience goes, a few wellplaced lo notes takes care of any skepticism.. i cant live withouta lo b , at least- i agre though- in a session environment- give them what thgey ask for- but live, play what you want!

i can hear it now... Sorry, Mr Nathan East- you gotta play the p bass -- never mind you are the busisest studio bassist in the world.. your 5 wont work here.. Mr East?... Mr East?......

[g.]

Hey, not to make too big of a deal of it, but five string basses often have preamps with no bypass and aren't necessarily designed to sound "traditional". And should the designer wish to sound traditional there is a difference in neck mass and headstock {and we want our dead spots in the same place if we are traditional, no? ; } and getting pickups that will do five and still have the same tonality (and good balance and similar output)

 

See here: read what went on with the Roscoe Beck sig model . Halfway down the page in the yellow box he talks about what Bill Lawrence had to do to get the pickups right. Elsewhere I've seen lutheirs talk about the neck/headstock thing.

 

I'm not saying that a five has to sound exactly like a four on the E-A-D-G strings, or that active is bad. But with some bandmates it is conceivable that it isn't just a range issue -- they are not currently into a bass or preamp that is voiced different than what grandaddy listened to and liked dadgummit!

 

Though I've found that some common sense with getting the rig sounding in the same ballpark (with EQ on the bass and at the head) can win them over. And don't forget that tweeter control, some of the Fenders don't have much going on there, but lots of onboard preamps have scads of sizzle.

[The Bear Jew]

Gryff...

I just checked out the MTD website. Some of those basses look pretty sweet -- especially the "Beast." The "Heir" definitely passes the cool test for me. Looks a lot like a P/J or something. No problem there. I definitely wouldn't have any problem with our guy using one of those if it sounded cool, too. Personally, I wouldn't want a 5-string for my own use (they confuse me!), but I really wouldn't care if our bass player used one. However, I'd definitely break his balls about using it if he got one of those overly flashy looking ones -- a white, aqua or bright red one. That would just look stupid mixed with the rest of our vintage-style, sunbursty stuff.

 

As Lee mentioned, perhaps the sound you're seeking for yourself is at odds with what your band wants? Maybe your guitarist and drummer are seeking a low-end rumble (or something like that), but you want to cut through the mix... that could be a problem. If our guy was really cutting through the mix of our band, it would be kind of a bad thing. We're a four-piece -- one guitar, one bass, vocals and drums. We need to have our sounds balanced -- almost matching. If he cuts through too much, we wouldn't be balanced when we play riffs, and we'd undermine our goal of having a really focused sound. Lucky for us, this is a shared vision.

 

We auditioned bassists who were "modern" sounding -- everything they'd do would cut through my guitar sound and the bass drum. Those guys could always play their asses off, and I suppose that sound is cool for some stuff, but for what we're doing, it kind of ruins the effect of "bigness" that we want. I'd always ask those guys to match my guitar sound a little more (more mids), and they'd look at me like I asked them to feel up their mothers. They'd tell me I was ruining their sound. I'd have to tell them that they were "ruining" the overall bass sound by sticking out too much. We needed White Zombie and these guys were giving us Weather Report.

 

What I'm getting at here is:

Does everyone in your band have the same overall sound in mind for your music? Could this be the problem?

[Christopher]

Geez. So much fuss over an extra string.

 

FWIW, I have a Roscoe Beck V that I used to audition with the band I'm currently with. They had no objections, but *I* thought the bass wasn't appropriate (too conservative in tone, too quiet).

 

I've since switched to a Marcus Miller jazz, which is the most range-limited instrument I've ever owned (4 strings, 20 frets). It weighs a ton (as much as the RBV!) and I'm not exactly in love with the super-bright tone (it can't do the mellow vintage jazz thing that the RBV does so well) but I have to admit that it cuts through better.

[RobT]

If it fits the music tonally then use it. If it doesn't then don't.

 

I for one have heard too many comments like this from guitar players. IF the extra string bothers ya (you gitar playahs) or you feel threatened by it; close yer eyes and practice your guitar-face grimmace fer cryin out loud!

 

Rob'LowEndLover'T

[ibescotty]

My story's not related to 5 string 4 string as much as what a different guitar can do to your sound and how your band mates might react to it. I've added a P-Bass to my arsenal recently. I've Played my XT-2 with an active + passive pick up in this band for the whole of it's existence. (2 years in the basement now gigging). When I brought in the new guitar the low end THUMPED!! It turned everyone's head immediately. I also was not really used to the larger neck compared to the XT-2. I played it for several practices just to get used to it. Eventually the band (nice guys they are) brought up that they were worried about the new guitar. It could over power everything even when plugged into -15db on the low end. I assured them that I wasn't going to play it through all 40-45 songs and only use it where a good low thum thump is required. They were relieved because they had gotten so used to my XT-2's sound. Sometimes it's all in what your band mates get used to. I now have both guitars plugged in at gigs with the P through -15db. When it's time to switch I just put down the XT-2 and pick up the P. I now feel that I have the right bass for almost any situation.

I just got my pics up and I'm just ego centric enough to post them here....

 

http://www.occamsjams.com/bass_singer.jpg = XT-2

http://www.occamsjams.com/bassplayer.JPG = P-Bass

[g.]

Christopher:Geez. So much fuss over an extra string.

Well, as an inch of wet blowing snow has piled up here in the past hour, I've been quite pleased to see a 4/5 string topic that isn't just about the number of strings -- boring! -- but also could be about tone/voicing. It kind of wraps in with the boutique/Fender debate that one so often sees and has the potential to shed new light.

 

Anyway, some more meanderings on the subject...

 

FWIW, I have a Roscoe Beck V that I used to audition with the band I'm currently with. They had no objections, but *I* thought the bass wasn't appropriate (too conservative in tone, too quiet)

When I got my Carvins I wanted something that could easily approximate a Fender sound (and my wood choices were nearly traditional) without being slave to it. But I have an extremely flexible rig as well, and probably the first thing I did was learned to sacrifice portions of the spectrum when doing imitation (it sure is easier to subtract with touch and settings than it is to add -- if one can bring themself to NOT have all that extended frequency response.

 

Funny. Through my then-current preamp (Alembic F1-X) the Roscoe didn't seem QUIET (that's what pregain is mainly for after all: to match instrument output to the rig), and a little EQ could make it more agressive easily enough. It reminded me much of a Lane Poor equipped instrument, amplifying the bass without much coloration/exaggeration (I could add that myself if desired).

 

What I didn't care for was the neck profile and string spacing (small hands, and I like it tighter, but that's just me) and the big clunky Fender headstock. In general I guess I wanted to get away from a Fender cosmetic approach though I love much of what has been done on Fenders.

 

Oh, back to five-strings. I still say that any band that has an aversion to just the extra 4th of range (or a different profile) is kind of missing the point: MUSIC FIRST. Ferinstance, look at what Johnny Gayden and other blues guys have been playing for basses, and stylistically what they have been adding to the lexicon. Some of these guys have re-written their original parts to incorporate more range and tonal possibilities into the music.

 

I wonder if their bandmates went through a Change-Is-Bad whining period before everything just settled in...

[Ben]

CMDN, Lee, I don't think this is a case of latent hostility in bass players. I think it's a case of arrogance in guitar players. Which unfortunately you guys are demonstrating.

 

CMDN, I can't imagine being in a band like yours where the color and shape of a bass matter more than how somebody plays. For me it's about music, not about style.

 

Lee, a good bass and good rig (we seem to be leaving the rig out of the tone discussion) should be able to get a good tone, never mind how many strings are on the bass.

[g.]

Jeez, Ben, I thought I was on the tone game right off the starting line ; }

 

One big difference for active onboard preamps (which fives more often have) is that the pickups can be properly buffered... which means that instument cable capacitance has a less-variable effect when plugged into various rig inputs. In other words, there isn't so much variance in response dependent on input circuitry design at the head or rack preamp.

 

It also means there is likely to be more treble (regardless of onboard preamp design). So watch those Fostex bullets, kids. They are often crossed over kind of low as well, and the combination can add a lot of harshness if not reeled in.

[Lee Flier]

Ben, I understand a lot of guitar players are arrogant, but what I'm saying is that it MIGHT not be arrogance. I said MIGHT, and I also said I don't know the specific situation so how could I know?

 

I do think tone and style has more to do with it than the number of strings. If somebody plays a 5 string and it fits what the band does, so be it. If somebody were to suddenly pick up a 5 string and it changed the whole sound of the band because either the tone was different or the player started playing totally different, then that could pose a problem don't you think?

 

I would expect the same kind of reaction from my band if I suddenly bought myself a PRS guitar and a Marshall. It just wouldn't work, and I could go on all I wanted about how I should have my artistic freedom and my rig is my business, but the fact is that if I want to play with that kind of sound I'd be better off with somebody else. It would be the HEIGHT of arrogance to assume that I can just change my whole sound and they should just accept it.

 

It's perfectly possible that this guitar player is just a control freak and the mere sight of a 5 string sets him off without even giving it a chance. But it's also possible that the tone and/or playing style really is different enough with the 5 that some adjustments need to be made or else the balance of the band's sound is ruined. I don't see any reason for anybody to get defensive about this suggestion.

 

--Lee