Is today's popular music lacking innovation?

[JLsound]

It seems to me that todays popular music adheres to a formula. Without getting into specific songs or groups, it seems to me that in one song you here the same instruments throughout, and the same instruments play the same parts, ie. the same piano part over the chorus, without even subtle variations.

 

Also, it seems that no one is experimenting with different instruments any more.

What do you think? Keep in mind that I am coming from a Rock perspective, So especially with new bands, I do not hear the use of different instruments other than guitar, bass, drums, keyboard/synthesizer. What happened to nonsynthesized mandolin, sitar, flute, etc. IMHO These instruments can add alot to the dimensions of songs.

[The Bear Jew]

Oh man...

Here we go.

May I sum up the discussion we'll be seeing here in two lines?

 

Someone: All of today's popular arists suck, and we're all going to hell in a handbasket.

Someone else: No, they don't, and you're a narrow-minded dinosaur to say such a thing.

[Griffinator]

I dunno.

 

Since the beginning of vocal melody, there has always been the inane. Drinking songs, most 19th and 20th century religious music, the vast majority of lyric during the 20's, 30's, and 40's ("Hit me with a hot note and watch me bounce"?!) - and rock music proudly carried that tradition forward from its inception through the present.

 

The problem we have now is that radio always offered a variety of alternatives - and with the onset of the Clear Channel empire, those options have disappeared into a quagmire of major label LCD music.

 

The only thing that could be said about modern pop that couldn't be said about all this other airheaded music, is that modern pop has reached a point of critical mass where the only work an A&R rep has to do now is pay attention to which little girls give him the biggest stiffy when he trolls the local junior high schools looking for new faces. The vocal coaches, dance choreographers, and recording engineers will do the rest.

 

"Rockin' the Suburbs"

 

I'm rockin' the suburbs

Just like Michael Jackson did

I'm rockin' the suburbs

Except that he was talented

I'm rockin' the suburbs

Take the checks and face the facts

While some producer with computers

fixes all my shitty tracks

 

Oh how true...

[Cowfingers]

What happened to nonsynthesized mandolin, sitar, flute, etc.

damn right! though i think you do still hear mandolin in counting crows type stuff (yuk!).

Of late ive been listening to the basslines of many BritPopy songs (stereophonics etc.) and their nearly all just root-notes.what has happened the imaginative skillful bassist? (sorry if im insulting the bassists here).

People dont seem to improvise either in popular stuff either. Live and recorded versions are note for note identical...

-starfucker

 

-starfucker

[desoto]

Popular music is so mired in business that artistry has become lost on the majority of the airwaves. Music companies have learned that cranking out safe cookie-cutter music makes money. And Americans are more than happy to drink that swill down. Since most radio stations now are children of the corporate mentality, all you're going to get on them is corporate pop and rock. Formula is safe and it sells. You see the same thing in the entertainment industry as a whole from movies to novels.

 

Fortunately no one is holding a radio to our head and forcing us to listen to it or write like it. The onslaught of sameness in popular music makes our support of local bands and unique songwriters all the more important. If anything, the success of the Oh Brother soundtrack shows that there is a popular appetite for more challenging and unusual music.

 

My band features cello and violin and people that hear us love that we have those instruments. There certainly is hope. Of course, we're not exactly busting down the top 40. But that's okay.

 

Amanda

[Virtual Jim]

heh... ben folds is the man. "Song for the dumped" is equally as good.

[Lee Flier]

Actually there is quite a lot of innovation going on, it's just not getting played on mainstream radio. Lots of today's musicians have figured out that they don't necessarily want to be on a major label if they want to be innovative...

 

--Lee

[Sylver]

Originally posted by CMDN:

Oh man...

Here we go.

May I sum up the discussion we'll be seeing here in two lines?

 

Someone: All of today's popular arists suck, and we're all going to hell in a handbasket.

Someone else: No, they don't, and you're a narrow-minded dinosaur to say such a thing.

Eric, you are a fence sitter just for commenting. Pick a side, dammit!

[The Bear Jew]

Eric, you are a fence sitter just for commenting. Pick a side, dammit!

Hahaha.... OK...

You got me.

I'm not sure if this is a side, but here ya go:

I think there will always be innovators and imitators.

 

The innovators are creative and break new ground. They find new, interesting ways to express themselves.

 

The imitators are just what the term implies -- somewhat derivative versions of a previously existing paradigm. Some might be knowing copycats who add some kind of original twist to a staid formula in order to cash in, but sometimes they're just artists who arrived at similar (albeit less interesting) musical conclusions as the innovators. I'd like to think (being the positive person I am) that there are more of the former than the latter.

 

Sometimes the innovators get good exposure and become popular. Sometimes the imitators get the brass ring. IMO, it's all valid as art.

 

I guess all that tapdancing breaks down to this: The good, interesting stuff is always out there. You just have to have the patience (and desire) to look for it.

[Kendrix]

When marshall amps and stomp boxes first hit in the 60's and then synths in the 70's there was a huge quantum leap in terms of new sounds and styles. Sounds were being made that had never been heard before. Its hard for me to conceive of anything matching that level of innovation today.

How many more really new tones exist in the universe? Stylistically things are a bit more open to change.

 

I suppose sampling and hip hop constitutes a recent and major piece of innovation- its just not my style.

 

I also agree with Lee.- To the extent there is some innovation in styles occurring today - most of it does not appear on the airwaves.

 

For me personally the most significant piece of innovation recently has to do with the home recording revolution enabled by affordable technology. My personal growth enabled by this is more than enough to keep me happy.

Screw commercial music -

If you are feeling unsatisfied make your own innovative music in your basement!!

There are no excuses.

[Jedi]

Originally posted by Kendrix.

If you are feeling unsatisfied make your own innovative music in your basement!!

There are no excuses.

I love this line. However, I don't think this lack of innovation is exclusive to music. Society, Life, Culture, Art, a lot of stuff is pretty damn dull. Passion went out in the early nineties. When I taught school in Washington D.C., the thing that bugged me the most was the fact these kids had no passion. Nothing moved them. Totally jaded, boxed in, and afraid. The reason there is no innovation is because the majority of the major players are afraid. Innovation is risk taking, and it is much safer to follow the existing order. Fear, plain and simple, that is why you have this pretentious bullshit for listening pleasure. All of the music I hear on the airwaves just sits there with its hands in its pockets. No convinction, no character, no passion, no anything. Instead of making music that is great, I feel like people are making music that is acceptable. There is nothing daring in popular music. Popular music sucks in very peculiar way. It sucks because it doesn't really suck, but it doesn't really sound good. It's like it's holding back or like that magic ingredient just isn't there. Good icing, but the cake leaves you wanting. I don't know, things are pretty weird these days.

 

Namaste

 

Jedi

[Guest Room Warrior]

Always the same argument with regard to the radio.

 

Do you imagine people sat in the parlor with their Victrolas and listened to Stravinsky? They didn't. They listened to the most formulaic pop songs you can imagine. The radio didn't play Bird, they played Glenn Miller. And the radio didn't play PFC Jimi Hendrix, they were too busy playing Sgt. Barry Sadler.

 

Innovation has never happened in the mainstream, it's always happened in the avant garde. So why does anyone expect today's innovators to be heard on the local FM?

[RobT]

Originally posted by dblackjedi:

Passion went out in the early nineties. When I taught school in Washington D.C., the thing that bugged me the most was the fact these kids had no passion.

That pretty much says it all. I do think passion exists. I don't think you'll find it on the radio these days. I get more of a musical rise out of what is being played in-between segments on NPR rather that commercial radio.

 

 

Innovation is risk taking, and it is much safer to follow the existing order.

 

Record companies and FOFP (Fear of Falling Profits) have just about sucked the life out of the big labels. I think passion for music as an art form exists at the smaller labels or in one's own muscial creations

 

 

There is nothing daring in popular music.

 

What starts out as daring ends up getting cloned ad infinitum.

 

 

Popular music sucks in very peculiar way. It sucks because it doesn't really suck, but it doesn't really sound good. It's like it's holding back or like that magic ingredient just isn't there. Good icing, but the cake leaves you wanting.

 

Best darn description I've heard in a long time.

 

RobT

[Anifa]

The innovators are creative and break new ground. They find new, interesting ways to express themselves.

 

I call the immitators MANUFACTURED....

 

The one thing about the innovators is the fact that "THEY" were discovered and not created. Therefore, their talent is expressed in a natural kind of way... they WILL endure. The immitators are lost without their vocal coaches, the choreographers, the instructors, directors, and their boyfriends.... pull the crutches out and the fall flat on their face. Today's pop scene is a rendition of the "Village of the Damned" All Blonde Haired and Blue Eyed and they all sound alike, move alike and have the same mentality. Except J-Lo

[Slowly]

I think there are so many things that went into the generalization of music. Mostly modern electronics. Nowadays, I, all by myself can produce an entire cd. I don`t need a guitarist, or drummers or anybody. Now, of course, the keyboard part will be smoking, but what do I know about a guitar and drums. Nothing, just give me that sample disc, loop it, lay my keys on top, and whail for 5 minutes. Bump, bump, tang, bump, bump, tang. Ain`t no way I`m gonna change time singnatures in the middle of all that. Instead of a drum roll, I`ll just say something loud to mask the music and cut it off at the beginning of the loop.

Excuse my ranting, of course modern music sucks. Kcbass

[Griffinator]

Originally posted by anifa:

The innovators are creative and break new ground. They find new, interesting ways to express themselves.

 

I call the immitators MANUFACTURED....

 

The one thing about the innovators is the fact that "THEY" were discovered and not created. Therefore, their talent is expressed in a natural kind of way... they WILL endure. The immitators are lost without their vocal coaches, the choreographers, the instructors, directors, and their boyfriends.... pull the crutches out and the fall flat on their face. Today's pop scene is a rendition of the "Village of the Damned" All Blonde Haired and Blue Eyed and they all sound alike, move alike and have the same mentality. Except J-Lo

What's so different about J-Lo? R&B reminiscient of Keith Sweat's earlier stuff. Nothing original happening there.

 

Only thing interesting happening in the R&B genre right now is that the producers are working toward more intricate vocal/beat interaction - Destiny's Child debut was an excellent example - the producer really went out of his way to make the rhythms interact with the vocals - makes for a much tighter, more interesting song.

[Anifa]

What's so different about J-Lo? R&B reminiscient of Keith Sweat's earlier stuff. Nothing original happening there

 

She doesn't have Blonde Hair and Blue Eyes, so I had to exempt her from the Village of the Damned.

 

In this case I was not referring to her music because I'm not into it any more than the BritPop

[quendalin0018]

It seems to me that the trend in music today is towards much simpler arrangements...I think its a direct result of taking a good thing too far.

It seems to me that synthesis of instruments has changed popular music since the original beat boxes of the '80s. These replaced the need for a drummer, and lowered costs for popular music. "This is a good idea" the producers said.

End result? Mass synthesis of instruments and less creative license. Its rare to hear any improvised sections--even solos--in popular music today, because much of "britney-pop" is built upon machines, which do not improvise very well . With this loss of improvisation came a loss of spontaneous music.

There is still a great deal of creative music and genius composition out there, even in the mainstream...it just requires a little digging occasionally to find.

[strat0124]

I totally agree with Lee, theres alot of innovation out there, but it ain't always on the radio. I hope things change, and we get a sixties mentality on corporate radio again....but thats dreamin. Check out NPR, college radio, underground/internet radio and the eclectic both live and on record. Don't let the suits tell you whats good.

[strat0124]

sorry double stuff going on here

[Anifa]

I like surfing to find cool, not so mainstream, network radio to listen to. There are some really awesome sounds coming out of Germany and some of the other foreign countries, REAL bands and not synthesized pop. Thing is, what is this junk that's coming up in Congress in the next week or so that's going to force the smaller internet radio stations off the web due to hijacking the percentage rates settled retroactive clear back to the signing of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act? This could really hurt all but the major internet stations. Will we still be able to find any home grown if these guys are shut down by the big dogs? Napster scared the holy CRAP out of the Majors and now they are seeking revenge beyond extremes. Granted, I did not condone Napsters violation of copyright ownerships, but I think that the Majors are using the controversy over internet piracy to shut down any and ALL competition. I may be speaking out of turn, but it's a concern of mine.

[JonnyClueless]

With the utmost respect, I have to say I disagree with the general concensus of the thread. I actually find a lot of current radio music very inovated. Aside from personal taste of course, which is irrellevant. Now I expect most everyone to dissagree with me, which is of no offence (and this post is meant to offend anyone either). Here is one of my points:

 

As far as the songs not being very complex, it depends how you look at it. If you take the song and look at it as simply a melody and chord changes, than no, they are not complex at all. But what does make them complex is the production and arrangements. You may need to listen closely, but its amazing the amount of work that goes into some of these pop tunes. Every time you listen, you may hear somethig new. Parts that come in and out so no two sections are the same. Maybe most of it is not live musicians, but I hear more complexity than I do in most rock/traditional music. Now There is a lot of RnB I must admit is pretty lacking, SUch as Family Values, which is just a 4 bar loop from beginning to end, without even any cuts. But I am thinking more along the lines of a Max Martin song. I ask that you really listen closely to one of those and take notice to all the detail (putting aside personal taste). Also, many of those songs actually use live bass (in reference to a post about the bass lines). Ture, it's almost always the root not, but I think for that style of music, its what often works best for the song (arguably).

 

OK, you guys can flame me now! :-)

[whitefang]

This kind of thing has been going on since recorded music. A few would innovate, and two dozen or more immitators would reduce it to insipid formula. Let's start at Elvis. While doing nothing really new, he DID put a new spin on it and got it to the white kids. Knocked eveyone out! Then all the other labels scrambled to imitate. Even Conway Twitty was originally supposed to be an Elvis copycat! Yikes!!

It was deja-vu all over again with the Beatles.

Seems to me, every seven to ten years someone will come up with a new direction, or a spin on an old idea and "revelutionize" popular music. So many more will jump on the bandwagon instead of taking a cue, that the formula demon takes over and ruins everything. Look at how the so-called "soul" singers do nothing more than whine like pussies now! No wonder the bitch left 'em! There was hope that Seal would bring an end to it, but nobody paid enough attention! And how many women either holler or have an aerobics class going on behind them onstage now? Wish I had a dollar! Was a time, only Greenday sounded like Greenday. Now, more than a dozen sound the same! Some public radio stations have those DJ's that will explore the unique in recorded music. In Detroit, we have WDET with Judy Adams and Martin Bandyke exposing those artists who are not afraid to shuck commercial success for artistic integrity. MOVE that radio dial around! REMOVE MTV and VH1 from your TV remote program. You'll find what you're looking for! The Stones are still touring after nearly 40 years! Do you think

N'Sync ever will?

whitefang

[RobT]

Originally posted by whitefang:

Some public radio stations have those DJ's that will explore the unique in recorded music. In Detroit, we have WDET with Judy Adams and Martin Bandyke exposing those artists who are not afraid to shuck commercial success for artistic integrity. MOVE that radio dial around! REMOVE MTV and VH1 from your TV remote program.

Man, you said a mouth full. Boy do I MISS WDET and its WSU campus counterpart WAYN. I have fond memories of having a couple of shows on WAYN during my college youth. I find the music played on the segueways on Public Radio more interesting than a lot of the stuff on big budget corporate radio these days!

 

RobT

[whitefang]

You bet, Rob! WDET has introduced me to artists over the years that I would have NEVER heard of on commercial radio! Joan Armitrading, Cassandra Wilson, Eberhard Weber, Weather Report, The Dixie Dregs, Laura Fygi, Gary Burton, Chris Smither, and on and on and on...

 

Not ALL commercial radio is ALL bad, mind you, but it's market oriented programming makes it too neccessary to keep changing stations too much in able to find a gem or two! Public radio caters to particular tastes in smaller doses in a effort to get the best to as diverse an audience as possible.

 

Long live NPR!

 

Whitefang

--------------------------------------------------

"Klaatu! Barada nicto!"

[Griffinator]

Of course, now we have this problem rising where even the NPR's are getting pressured to embrace the indies (and hence the major label money) because their public funding is steadily drying up.

 

College Radio may be the last bastion of independent music on the airwaves.

[tomcat36]

What we need is a couple of 50,000 watt pirate radio stations in every state run by eclectic music lovers

[Griffinator]

I had an idea once to put together a mobile rig and just drive around the country broadcasting - switch off stations when I need to - play whatever the hell I wanted...

[whitefang]

Sounds like a good idea, Griff! Let me know when you roll into town. I'll give a listen.

 

Whitefang

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by Griffinator:

...modern pop has reached a point of critical mass where the only work an A&R rep has to do now is pay attention to which little girls give him the biggest stiffy when he trolls the local junior high schools looking for new faces. The vocal coaches, dance choreographers, and recording engineers will do the rest. ...

Oh man, I just dug up this gem and had to share! This quote resonates perfectly with my view of "the way things work".