Share your thoughts on songwriting

[DSD]

Since this is a songwriting forum Id like to talk about writing songs. Ill answer a few of my own questions to get started

 

How do you write songs?

 

Most of the time when I write a song I come up with a chord progression that keeps calling my name. Ill get into a groove and play it until some melody starts popping out. After I get a sketchpad of the melody I start to sing words that seem to fit the mood of the song ( syllables, timing ETC) after a while I start to connect the lines into a more structural form. Sometimes I whisper when I write a song because I find it helps me focus on the lyrics and the rhythm of them. I have written songs otherways too but this is more the norm.

 

On the average how long does it take you to write a song?

 

I find that my best ones come pretty quick. I do write a lot of songs that are not finished , sometimes I just put them on the shelf and try to revisit them when the inspiration seems right. I cant force myself to write a song if I dont have it in me. I have put many hours into songs and done many rewrites but I find I need to feel the Inspiration.

 

How do you get Ideas for songs?

 

This is one area I am working on. Sometimes its so hard to say what has already been said a million times and I hate being too predictable. I have been keeping a notebook of different concepts that I think of that might be interesting as a lyric.

As I get older on one hand its easier to write but on the other hand its harderEX

Love songs are sometimes hard for me to write. Im married I have a beautiful wife and our relationship is great but Im not some starry eyed kid anymore and that seems to be the approach of most popular love songs. Dont get me wrong there are plenty of love songs that I like but as the only subject it can get very redundant . I know that it is and always will be the most popular subject of songs. I have always been a people observer I find that this helps me in writing songs.

 

What do you get out of writing songs?

 

My life is written into 25 years of songwriting. When somebody tells me that one of my songs touched them or helped them through a bad time I feel honored ,its helped me through good and bad times.Writing songs has always been therapeutic for me. I write a lot about different situations I see all around my life , maybe thats my way of dealing with things I dont try to think about it that much

 

What is the most typical song structure you like to write?

 

Im a sucker for Verse- Chorus- Verse Chorus- Bridge or C section to Chorus. I have been trying to push that envelope more lately and been coming up with some interesting variations .but that format is hard to beat.

 

Who do you respect as songwriters?

 

I dont know where to begin: Lennon & Mcartney, Peter Gabriel, Bob Dylan,Duke Ellington, James Taylor, Elton John & Bernie Taupin, Neil Finn, Pete Townsend. ,Sting, Donald Fagan, Prince, John Hiatt.

Thats just scratching the surface

 

I just want to know how everybody else goes about it. share insights and technique

 

Thanks

[Virtual Jim]

How do you write songs?

 

First off, I overabuse my computer based sequencer when writing.

 

When I write non electronic stuff, it starts with a guitar riff. Then I try to find two more to fill out the verse/chorus/bridge deal. Then I figure out what the drums should be and then I might fiddle around with the bass so it's not straight root notes.

 

Lyrics always seem to come at different points. Usually, they come around the time I'm done with the guitar part, but other times I'll find lyrics I wrote for one song work better for another.

 

For my electronic stuff, it's a free-for-all. Something about sitting with a midi controller keyboard vs. a guitar that gets me to write differently.

 

On the average how long does it take you to write a song?

 

I have two categories for this. One is I can get one done in a night. The other is it takes me weeks to piece it all together. Like above, I tend to think the better ones come quickly.

 

How do you get Ideas for songs?

 

Life, but mostly my friends. I'll take one particular piece out of an event or personality and write an extreme song about it.

 

What do you get out of writing songs?

 

It feels rewarding to me that I can create art, and it's a great release. If someone did something to piss me off, I can just be mature to their face, but then let it all out in song. I often joke with my friends that "I better get a song outta this..."

 

After the fact, when you have any kind of positive response to an original... you can't beat that feeling. I can't tell you what it felt like for me to see three of my songs get pretty damn close to #1 in their respective genre's charts on mp3.com (the payback check didn't hurt either ). Or when I was a drummer for a band and I could see the audience react positive when we played. That's why I do it I think.

 

What is the most typical song structure you like to write?

 

I'm a slave to verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus. Sometimes I'll throw in a prechorus, but usually it's that.

 

Who do you respect as songwriters?

 

The writers in the bands I dig. To me, a song isn't good until it moves me. But those that do I try to disect to their every little bit. If you want some names: Jimmy Page, John Paul Jones, Joe Satriani, Scott Lucas (Local H), Kurt Cobain, Tom Morello, and John Reis (Rocket From the Crypt, etc.).

[DSD]

After the fact, when you have any kind of positive response to an original... you can't beat that feeling. I can't tell you what it felt like for me to see three of my songs get pretty damn close to #1 in their respective genre's charts on mp3.com (the payback check didn't hurt either ). Or when I was a drummer for a band and I could see the audience react positive when we played. That's why I do it I think.

 

It comes from such a personal place. It's great when other people get something out of it when they see inside of your song and they get it. Isn't this what the art is all about?

[DC]

How do you write songs?

 

Occationally, it'll all just pop into my head and I'll rush to record enough bits of melody and words to remember the thing. Usually, I'll write a music bed and go back to put the words and melody to the music. I've now got a partner so I can hand her the music and she'll come up with amazing words and melody that I'd never think of in a million years. Our music is much much better than mine is.

 

On the average how long does it take you to write a song?

 

Yes, the good ones come quick, but since I do most all the parts (unless I can import a piano or drum person that's better than me) it takes around four to eight hours on the average to create a musical bed. That's if it will come, sometimes it won't. Thing is, once I have a beat and a guitar or piano rhythm part, the other parts come quickly. Sometimes I get stuck and weeks later I'll add some sax or mando or something and boom; it works!

 

Putting the words and melody is weird because I get stuck there way more than with the very music. If I give my partner a chunk of music, she'll usually spend around 3 or 4 hours playing it over and over, writing out the words and recording her part. Takes longer if there are a slew of backup vocals.

 

How do you get Ideas for songs?

 

I'm more right brain with creating, so ideas just pop out for music. I record them with a micro recorder and sift through the bits later. Sometime I'll do a concept song like the cheerful little ditty I wrote called 'Doctor at 9:00.' It's a friendly little tune about Frank and Sue who fall madly in love, take a cruse ship trip, and are eaten by cannibols.

 

More often than not, my lyrics are nonsense but the words sound good together, while my partner writes more story songs.

 

What do you get out of writing songs?

 

Well, never any money yet, except selling a few original CDs at gigs. Mostly a feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction. Plus my sweetie and I can have a few drinks, pop in one of our CDs and get delusions of granduer.

 

What is the most typical song structure you like to write?

 

Usually ver-ch-ver-ch-mid8-solo-ch-ch but sometimes ver-br-ch-ver-br-ch-mid8-solo-ch. Sometimes it's all mixed up, got one that's ch-mid8-ch-differentmid8-ch- and sometimes it's one big continual thing with the voices changing to denote seperate parts of the song.

 

Who do you respect as songwriters?

 

 

Lennon/McCartney, Paul Simon, wait a minute, see that other thread

[Skip_dup1]

HOW DO YOU WRITE SONGS?

 

I want to just comment on that one for now, cause I may have a bit of a different approach. I majored in writing in college, and I`m still very `writerly` when it comes to lyrics. I sometimes use complex rhyme schemes, or big words, but only if they say what I mean. Once I have something, I`ll reweite as many times as needed until I`m pretty sure it`s as good as it`s going to get. That can be quite a while but it`s usually worth it. My approach to the music is similar but I don`t generally nitpick as much until I`m actually ready to record something.

[ccbsound]

I come at songs from a very different viewpoint. In most modern music the drum and bass tracks are really key and should not be an afterthought or something looped while you work on the melody etc. and then just left in. I find drum stuff that excites me, then work on melodic moods that work over those. Also, recording in a studio with an engineer once the songs are farther along can really help because you'll learn to leave space for production stuff -- a good studio engineer has heard lots of other peoples' music and that's valuable experience to apply to your own efforts. Just like talking about something brings out your own ideas, recording in a real studio with an engineer can bring out your true music. As an engineer who started as a musician and still does my own music projects, I found being exposed to the studio recording process with others very helpful.

[Lee Flier]

How do you write songs?

 

Beats me. A fragment of one will pop into my head and then it's a scramble to make sure that I can remember it somehow. For me it's usually not as simple as writing something down, because when I get the initial idea for a song, a LOT of times it's not just a chord progression or melody or lyrics, it's a whole SOUND. Like, I'll hear a line of a song with a whole band already there. So if I don't remember everything about that "snapshot" I might well lose the whole thing.

 

Assuming I do get it to stick in my head, then I have to finish the sucker, and that could happen any number of ways. I might have structured sessions where I sit down and TRY to finish it. Or sometimes more stuff just comes into my head. Or I'll play it for my band or maybe just our bass player (the other writer in the band) and see what they come up with. Whatever it takes.

 

On the average how long does it take you to write a song?

 

Sheeesh... there is no average for me. I used to feel like some of you that the best ones came pretty quickly, but that hasn't necessarily been the case these days. I've had songs take anywhere from 10 minutes to 10 years... LOL. I really couldn't tell you the time on most of them.

 

How do you get Ideas for songs?

 

Well, from life. Sometimes my own life, sometimes other people I know. Sometimes there will seem to be a phrase or theme that keeps coming up in conversation that forms the basis for a song. Could be just about anything really. A lot of my songs seem to come from having empathy for friends who are maybe in a bad situation and I might write a song about it to kind of let them know I understand what they're going through. Or I might be pissed at someone and write a song about that too.

 

And I do think there's such a thing as a good love song that isn't necessarily about being a starry-eyed kid. Relationships can get more complicated when they're more mature and people can relate to those kinds of songs too!

 

What do you get out of writing songs?

 

Heh... eternal life, the universe, and everything. If I didn't write and play music I wouldn't have a lot of reason to live. Not that I have no other interests, but music and writing illuminate everything that interests me, if that makes any sense. It's how I best communicate with other people, and how I best understand myself.

 

What is the most typical song structure you like to write?

 

I don't really have one that I TRY to use. Being a fan of the 3 minute pop and rock song, a lot of 'em come out like that, but whatever works. I have some songs with pretty strange structures even if they are 3 minute pop songs.

 

Who do you respect as songwriters?

 

Too many to list - I think we had a thread about that here. A few of my faves: Lennon/McCartney, Richard Thompson, Pete Townshend, Bob Dylan, Bob Marley, Peter Case... well I could go on for awhile so...

 

Interesting questions! Enjoying reading everyone's answers so far.

 

--Lee

[Tedster]

Following excerpt taken from a Guitar Player interview...

 

Call It Intuition

By DAVID CROSBY

Very often ideas come to me when I'm falling asleep- when the busy mind gets out of the way and the intuitive, imaginative mind gets a shot at the steering wheel. My friend, science fiction writer, William Gibson, told me, "It's an established phenomenon. The elves take over the workshop. That's why all writers keep a pen and paper by their bedside."

I know it's not this verbal crystallization level that writes the songs.I'll give you an example. I was sailing down the coast in my sailboat in the middle of the night, 100 miles off the coast. I'm off watch and sound asleep. Suddenly, I wake up, grab a pad of paper, and write all the words to "Shadow Captain" in one blurt: "Shadow captain of a charcoal ship, tryingto give the light the slip." I had never once thought of any of those images.But some part of my head was cooking it up, because it came out as fast as I could write.

 

So it's a matter of putting yourself in contact with the intuitive level of your mind where the longer connections and bigger leaps take place.And part of that is just making a space for it. If you're into spiritual practice, you make a space where every day you can make contact with your higher self, whatever you call it - God, dog. I call it Marnie. You make a place where that can happen to you and for you. And it's the same way with song writing. (Guitar Player Oct., 1993)

[Skip_dup1]

I remember reading an interwiew with the singer from the group Crash Test Dunnies, where he said that he view it not so much as a feverish inspiration thing, but more like a craft. You learn to identify the basic elements, what function they have, how they fit together and then, presumably, go at it. That`s another approach.

[quendalin0018]

How do I write songs?

I've only been writing complete arrangements for maybe a year, so I am still not very experienced. Having said that, I tend to think about the lyrics as a separate entity. They have to fit for me, and then I just sit until a rhythmic or melodic pattern strikes me. Sometimes its the other way around...

On a separate note, I cannot count the number of times I have lost tunes because I just put off writing them down. I guess a good memory would help that...

[Icarus Grounded]

I'm new to the boards, so this is a nice way to get to know some of you...good idea.

 

How do you write songs?

I often start with lyrics. Then I go to work developing the melody. I then bring in the acoustic guitar and pull it all together. Throughout the process, I am constantly refining my lyrics.

 

On the average how long does it take you to write a song?

This varies. If I'm in the right frame of mind, I can sometimes knock out a whole song in one sitting. Other times no matter how much I water the seeds of a song idea, nothing grows for quite some time.

 

How do you get Ideas for songs?

Most come from my own experiences. Then I work with the ideas that I think will reverberate for others.

 

What do you get out of writing songs?

Primarily, I view the creative process as my way of interacting with the universe in a very intimate way. Sometimes, it also affords me a forum to work through thoughts, ideas and emotions...therapeutic, definitely. Of course, the symbiosis between artist and listener is a wonderful feeling.

 

What is the most typical song structure you like to write?

I usually don't pre format my songs. There's always the standard components, but no particualar order. I let the lyrics drive and see where I end up. When I hit pre-production for recording, I may make changes to the structure/order to create a more "consumer" friendly version.

 

Who do you respect as songwriters?

Tall order, but in no particular order: Amy Ray, Emily Sailers, Joni Mitchell, Laurie Anderson, Morrissey/Marr (Smiths), Kristen Hall, Patty Larkin, Cat Stevens, Stipe/Buck (REM), Jeff Buckley...I could go on for quite a while.

[NickT]

I'm also new to this board, so hello one and all.

 

How do you write songs?

I'm more of a lyricist than a tunesmith. Much of my best material has come from just streaming onto a page for a while, with a vague idea of what I'm on about. Then coming back to it later and sorting through it, looking for stuff that actually makes sense and piecing it together filling in gaps as I go. It's a really fun way to write, a few beers or whatever (not too much though) helps me as well as I find I'm less concious of how things sound and I can be more honest, with myself as much as anything. Had a very cool morning writing on the balcony of my hotel room in Cairo at 5am after a gig listening to the call to morning prayers.

 

In terms of tunes most of them turn up when I'm in my car, often late at night and I'll just sing on my way home.

 

On the average how long does it take you to write a song?

 

Nothing is finished for me until it is recorded and mixed. Until then anything can happen. There is one song I've been writing on and off for three years. It does keep getting better. I'm not sure I want to finish it though.

 

How do you get Ideas for songs?

Observations. Looking back at situations I've been in. Watching my friends and others screw things up, screw each other over, fall in love, help each other out. Mainly people, once a place (Cairo) sometimes Rage Against The Machine style fire in the belly.

 

What do you get out of writing songs?

Self-cleansing. Saying what I haven't really got the balls to say to someone. (Often love songs) Provoking thought. Communicating with strangers.

 

What is the most typical song structure you like to write?

 

Used to quite verse/chorus, less so now. When writing for/with my band (Lofee) I/we will tend to write one bit and then add stuff as we go, seeing where the song wants to go next. Some end up with a standard verse/chorus structure, that is quite obvious. One has stuff that is repeated and is catchy, but I would hesitate to call it a chorus. Depends on what sounds right after the bit we've just written.

 

Who do you respect as songwriters?

Eddie Vedder, the boys from Gomez, Guns N Roses, Ginger (ex-Wildhearts, buys "Earth Vs..." cracking record, really funny in places and it rocks like a bastard), Tom Waites (the finest writer I have ever heard, he has a gift for making everything very real, genius) Eminem (lyrical master), James Stapleton and Annelise Shaw, my writing partners in Lofee.

[D.B. Walker]

I love this thread!

 

I think that each question could/should be it's own topic.

 

How do you write songs?

I force myself to write 3 songs a day. Even if the inspiration is not there, and they suck. I spend about 30 to 60 min persong, then record what I have on my notebook and move on.

 

The more I do it, the better they get.

 

I write in different places, back yard, living room, in the camper, on the beach, in a park. It is amazing what different enviroments bring forth.

 

I almost never write in my studio.

 

I never review the song the same day I write it, I wait at least one day, then check to see if there is anything there.

 

If there is, I demo the tune up in my studio.

 

On the average how long does it take you to write a song?

 

Document idea: 30 to 60 min

Create demo of music: 2 to 3 hours

Lyrics: 2 to 3 hours (Subject to constant revision)

 

So, one or two songs a day in demo form, plus 3 in sketch form.

 

How do you get Ideas for songs?

Many ways, some come to me fully formed, others struggle for a while.

 

Often I build a mental picture of a band performing, and trying to convey an idea. From this visual picture in my head I write the music to go with it.

 

I have a book, a collection of Beat Poetry. I often read/sing from it as I improvise chords. I find that it relieves me of the preasure to know what the song is about before it is written. Interesting melodic ideas happen this way.

 

If I am really stuck, I listen to music and learn songs and draw inspiration from that.

 

What do you get out of writing songs?

A stable mental state. If I am not being musical I get cranky!

 

What is the most typical song structure you like to write?

 

Verse - Chorus - Verse - Chorus - Bridge - Chorus (x2) end

 

Somtimes, there is no bridge, or I begin with the chorus. Often there is a tag before the chorus that changes as the song progresses. Somtimes the tag is the intro.

 

Often, the bridge is a solo section.

 

Often, the length of the first vers is 1/2 of the others.

 

Often, the length of the chorus before the bridge is 1/2 of the others.

 

(Never really thought about, but those are patters I think I will have to break a little)

 

Who do you respect as songwriters?

 

Aimee Man, Elvis Costello, Radio Head... plus the other rock gods...

 

However, if I hear a song that moves me, I often will deconstruct it to figure out why. Could be a one hit wonder tune, or anyone.

 

Thanks DSD!

[Kendrix]

Usually I start with lyrics - they suggest a melody.

I dont beleive i ever write anything. The only thing that maters is the abilty to re-write someting till its hot. This very rarely happens on the first take.

 

Lately ive been trying to write melodies to start-less restrictive.

 

Ive had really good luck when I have a few pieces of music without lyrics and a handfull of lyrics without music. I play a pairing game with them - trying our diferent combinations. Its amazing what ends up clicking together.

 

Sometimes an over-heard conversation leads to a good song- or a phrase. From TV, the News, other songs, anywhere- they are like seeds.

 

Im not hung up about using someone elses song as such a seed - cause by the time Im done its something completely different.

 

Typically Im an ababcb type. Sometimes ababcab.

Less often ababa(instrumental) b.

 

It interesting to me that , before writing songs I paid almost no attention to the lyrics. Was a real tone/music hound. Now that Im writing (and i decided to write songs , not just music) i get more complements on the lyrics than anything else. Wierd.

 

Once I ve got the words I typically program in bass and drums (or midi in the bass thu my guitar synth). Someimes use my pads to mini-in the drums.

 

Then I can sing along and play with the tempo and pick a key. Then I lay in the audio tracks- guitars, voc, synths,keys etc...

 

I find things go in cycles. Get obsessed for a month or two. Write and record one per week. Then take a few weeks off. Sometimes i take a whole week just to get the damned mix just right ( tho Im sure it is never just right).

 

My new toy, the aw4416, has got me going right now. My stuff is sounding better already.

 

I do beleive there is something to letting your unconscious take over. Many writers say the song was just "out there" and was channeled through them. On a good day I sometimes get this feeling.

Its a blast.

[whitefang]

DSD;

I'm not a proffesional songwriter. Nothing I write will ever probably be published. But to excersize my own voice in playing music, I "make up" tunes. In my way of thinking, practicing someone else's songs may be good for keeping up the chops, but creatively stagnating.

 

I go about it the same way you do, for the most part. Right now, I have a variety of charts worked out, but no lyrics! Seem to be going through some block of some kind. And the fact that I cannot read music makes it difficult to keep all of this straight without constantly going over the charts. Hence, the other reason I forego practicing other's songs.

 

Lyrics never were a problem when I was younger, and I'm trying to figure out if my trouble now is

if at my age, I have nothing to say, or if I'm not quite sure how to say it!

 

All the songwriters you've mentioned and most of the other's brought up are worthwhile influences.

The only name I can bring up is Roy Orbison, believe it or not! He and his collaborator (SOMEBODY out there probably knows his name) have quite often eschewed the normal pattern of song structure to come up with some pretty amazing stuff. You can't say "Crying" or "Running Scared" follow the textbook pattern of song construction, but in the moment of listening, it really doesn't seem to matter! Most of what I write has tossed out those conventions, and a sense of creative freedom prevails. If music is art, and art is supposedly an extention of self expression, well, how can you chain THAT to rules?

 

Whitefang

[sevush]

I write in two modes. The first is just noodling on an instrument and coming up with something neat. That almost always becomes something "that needs lyrics".

 

The other approach is to write the lyrics first. Sometimes it's a hook, then the verses to support it. Lyrics can take me a long time to finish - some take ten years or more. It's painful as hell, I'm a perfectionist and I won't let it go until there's no better way to say it.

 

Then I'll set it to music - often very quickly. If lyrics "speak" to me, I can find the music easily. I've collaborated with others with the same results - but 90% of their lyrics won't "speak" to me.

[whitefang]

In those rare times, lately, that I DO think of lyrics, Sevush, it usually IS a chorus, or hook, if you will. And more often than not, it comes to me in the form of a melody. I rarely come up with these without music "attached". Is this common with most of you, or am I some kind of rare bird? I think not, but don't really know.

 

Whitefang

[aaron.p]

I'd like to add to this thread, since the question "how do you (does one) write songs" has been asked since I think Adam and Eve were around.

 

I'm 31, so I've been around enough to have read a lot and heard a lot, though I believe I still have plenty of creative years ahead of me. So much talk and writing has referred to processes, writing words or music first, tools, and methods of inspiration, etc. In the last four years I feel I really stumbled on to something that I've almost never read about.

 

It all started when I was sleeping. I was dreaming I was watching Madonna on T.V. singing a song. The song was so familiar I was singing right along (in my dream). It was a great tune!The dream was longer than the song. When I woke up I was thinking, "hey, what was that I was watching her sing?" I tried to recall it. My female roommate at the time had Madonna's greatest hits and as I lured a chunk of the melody out of my subconsciousness (I was only able to get out a couple lines), I scanned down the disc to see what it was. That's when it hit me: The song didn't exist! It was coming out of my brain in real-time and Madonna was singing it, all in my head.

 

Since then it's happened about 3 more times, maybe four. Also, I've started to be able to "make" it happen, a little, just as I'm falling asleep. I've spent a lot of time contemplating this and doing more reading. Now please don't think I'm trying to say I'm a musical genius, I'm only describing what happened.

 

I was reading a book that had letters written by famous classical composers, like Mozart. I also really pay attention when big songwriters talk, like Lennon or McCartney, or whoever else. The one thing they all seem to have in common and say in reply to "how do you get your ideas" is that they don't know. Many times it just shows up. If you watch you'll see, some always says that.

 

So I've accumulated all this info., along with my own experiences, and started to put together this theory. About a year ago I bounced it off my girlfriend and she thought I really might be on to something.

 

The idea is that getting the really good, killer ideas to come to you is not about searching for things on the outside. It's about accessing within your consciousness what appears to be a kind of continually travelling subway of "material" that's flowing by in the back of your brain. It's like an underground river or a faucet of water. The trick is figure out how to shut off all the daily conscious shit (the way your brain does when it's falling asleep) and learn to turn the faucet on or access the always flowing river.

 

You guys may not believe this but every once in a while I really can get myself to do this as I fall asleep, and for maybe 10-15 seconds here and there, a complete arrangement (orchestra, rock band, whatever) will just play in real time. More and more I can kind of tap my brain's imaginary shoulder at that point and say, "hey, did you hear that?" and then I wake up for a second, think about what just played through my head, and realize that I just did it again, that is if I don't notice it's actually someone else's tune I've heard on the radio.

 

So I'm saying I think everyone's got a "subway" of sorts going on underneath, because we all have had crazy things happen as we fall asleep. Your brain just starts moving along without your hands on the wheel. It's just some people can access it on queue, and others are oblivious to it. Mozart could write a whole piece in his head and then write it down later when someone wanted to pay him for some music. He had direct access to the handle of the faucet. Lucky MF!

 

Think about it when you're falling asleep tonight. You'll see things just start moving on their own, in your own way. I think THAT is the subway, you just have to learn how to consciously take notes while letting the cars or the river flow by on their own. They're always flowing.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Aaron

[D.B. Walker]

Aaron: I totaly get where you are comming from.

 

I have heard that budists in deep meditation will hear music.

 

In addition, a friend of mine actualy sleep deprives himslef on a regular basis to get to the half asleep state, to write songs.

 

I have had several of the dreams you describe, but I have never documented the songs. They are too fleeting.

 

However, I think when you improvise for long periods it is a similar kind of thing. At first you brian will make you play all of your stock riffs, and if you let go, you may get to the place where you tap your innner music and the notes will flow.

 

I find that song writing is more like grand scale improv ... improvise a song, aragnement, all instruments in your head.... then rush out to document it somehow.

 

To do this I have to make the outside world go away, drop the walls, make my internal editor shut the #$%& up and get out of the way.... much like meditation ... or trying to sleep....

 

I have heard a lot of people say they get ideas when driving. Driving is very hypnotic, so much of your brain is ocupied with the automatic manipulation of the car that sometimes the music inside will start (If you turn off the radio).

 

so ....yea man .... i'm there

[whitefang]

I HATE it when an idea comes to me while driving!

Specially on the freeway, when stopping to jot it down gets dangerous! Don't you just HATE that?

 

And how many times has it happened that when you come up with what you think is a great idea while half asleep, by the time you get yourself assembled enough to get up and put it down, it's GONE?

 

Arrrrrrgh!!!

 

Whitefang

[aaron.p]

whitefang/db,

 

db: cool. I'm glad someone else gets what I'm saying. I think accessing this "inner river" really is the key, people just never, uh, think to think about it that way.

 

whitefang: yeah, both those situations suck. if someone could come up with a recorder you could plug into your ear they'd be a gazillionaire. The whole problem is getting a good "recording" of the idea as it happens. There's no way to get one, at least in this century.

 

Can you guys imagine being able to access those thoughts at will? I think if I ever became able to do that I'd wet my pants with excitement.

 

Aaron

[nteleky]

How do you write songs?

 

The first thing I do is shut up. I shut up and just listen to what I'm feeling, or what I feel around me. Then I try to hear that feeling as a single note.

 

That single note never adequately describes the feeling all the way, so it becomes a chord. Then that chord gets lonely and asks another chord to dance with it and they have a couple baby chords that pop up once in a while to fully flesh out the feeling I'm trying to convey.

 

While writing, I try to remember that I'm giving. Everything else in life you do, you are taking from here and from there and you consume life that way. When you write, you are giving. That's why people come to see you perform and that's why they buy your music. They're taking what you got to give and you've got to be that source.

 

To write, I try to give to myself, the best expression of a feeling I can summon from the universe. I try to give from my heart so people will really appreciate my music.

 

Then I play every single note, like it hurts to let it go.

[Kendrix]

Aaron,

What you are describing- the power of the sub-conscious mind as a source or creativity is real.

Read the book "The inner game of Music" for more on this.

 

This is also much like the power of visiualization tha some coaches teqach to sports athletes.

[aaron.p]

Kendrix,

 

I'll check the book out for sure. Thanks for the suggestion. I studied music in college and my teachers always said, "the truth is, composition can't be taught." That really confused me for a while (I was just out of high school) but I think it's relating to what we're talking about. You're not going to find the ideas for YOUR music by learning the numbers and chords, or the range of each instrument in the orchestra. All that's good for is to articulate the ideas once you fish them out of that inner river.

 

Aaron

[whitefang]

Aaron;

 

I never studied music in college, but a friend who has took a course in composition. He found out by talking to other students studying the course under different professors that each one had their own ideas of what shape compositions MUST take. Apparently, no real standard has been written in stone, and what you were told is more to the truth. Needless to say, he dropped the course mid-term!

 

Right now, my biggest problem in making up songs

(I don't consider myself as a composer!) is coming up lyrics that say what I want to say without seeming maudlin. That earlier post about "giving" is right! But not as easy as some might think!

 

Whitefang

[max]

i've now written three songs while driving (australia is a great country for that)

 

for a while i only wrote about things that made me cry

 

tunes come from exploring an instrument (guitars/keys/accordion/recorder/etc)

 

melodies are adjusted to fit the flow of the lyrics

 

my favourite songs come all at once: melody + lyrics + quickly (only happened twice)

 

i do it 'coz i'm compelled/obsessed

 

great fortune to you all,

 

cheers

max

newcastle, oz

[aaron.p]

Whitefang,

 

You know, I wish I had "understood" better what that idea they told me meant, like I think I do now. I could have been more productive. Since they wanted music from me every week, I began to spit out notes to make them happy, trying to simulate whoever's music I had been learning about that week. What I can see now is that they honestly would have let me spit out any combination of notes, and their purpose was to coach me on how to make the music "run" as smooth as possible, like an engine. At my age and level of maturity at that time, I took it as them trying to tell me what note to write, though.

 

A person's emotional developement really affects how well they handle (or perceive) situations. This might sound funny, but in some ways I wish I could retake highschool with the maturity I have now. It would have been a much healthier experience, rather than the chaotic nightmare that it was. I would have gotten more out of it. What can you do?

 

Aaron

[Tedly Nightshade]

This inner river thing is for real. I usually prefer not to have a radio on so I can listen to the music in my head. But it's so hard to remember it when you're at the instrument or the staff paper- maybe this is good, only the most memorable parts get saved.

Usually when I consciously begin writing a song it's because some fragment really resonates and lingers with me. Lots of dreamy stuff gets written this way. The upbeat stuff is usually about an instrumental groove found at the instrument.

 

"I have a book, a collection of Beat Poetry. I often read/sing from it as I improvise chords. I find that it relieves me of the preasure to know what the song is about before it is written. Interesting melodic ideas happen this way."

 

I read somewhere where Sting said he never knew what the songs were about until after they were written. This is often true for me, and even when I know what they're about, I find all kinds of hidden meanings and mind puzzles in there, maybe that has to do with the resonance: a meaning applicable in several directions, even before you see what exactly those directions are and what the juxtaposition of the various meanings suggests.

 

As for form, I love what Paul McCartney does on his first solo album, a montage of fragments from a few seconds to a minute long, and whole tunes. Some of the fragments could be made into whole songs, but they are left raw, and it's enjoyable that way.

A lot of time the form gets chopped for me because of slow tempos and long structures. It's a compromise between the original vision and what actually works.

Ted

[Anifa]

Originally posted by whitefang:

I HATE it when an idea comes to me while driving!

Specially on the freeway, when stopping to jot it down gets dangerous! Don't you just HATE that?

 

And how many times has it happened that when you come up with what you think is a great idea while half asleep, by the time you get yourself assembled enough to get up and put it down, it's GONE?

 

Arrrrrrgh!!!

 

Whitefang

Hey Whitefang and all others faced with this problem; I had a friend turn me on to something that, when I use it, is a lifesaver for us wordy ones.

 

Voice Recognition programs can be awesome for writers of all kinds. I was suggesting to my friend that I wouldn't mind authoring a novel and he told me to check into the voice recognition program software. I bought Naturally Speaking and I thought it was a REAL pain in the arse at first, until I took the time to read the manual and train the software to my voice. Once the unit became familiar with the tones and levels in my voice, I was able to dump my spoken words into a transcriber that converted voice to text. After playing around with it for a bit with just the software on my computer, writing entire chapters in my book in a matter of hours, I purchased a mobile unit to carry in the car or other places where I might use it. The mobile unit is about the size of a cellular phone and resembles it's appearance. The words you record are stored until you record over them, erase them, dump them into your computer.... or your battery goes dead. There is about 45 minutes of talk time per storage disk and I think that you can purchase additional disks.

 

At the time I bought my mobile unit, you could buy them for about $300.00. I think they may have gone up in price, as the manufacturers targeted a market of medical professionals that benefited from the product by enabling them to chart medical records as they were examining their patients. These little devices are GREAT little gadgets for ALL authors of any sort.... HANDS FREE operation allows you to DRIVE and write your thoughts simultaneously, you can even use a headset with a microphone with both the stationary desk unit and the mobile unit.

 

This would also be great to lay on your nightstand for those half asleep ideas that hit you. You could record your sleepy thoughts and then play them back in the morning.

 

The one important thing is to make sure you read ALOUD all of those dumb stories like Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory, and other provided exercise's that are required to train the voice recognition to the sound of your voice. I wanted to jump right in and start using it, without conditioning it first, and EVERYTHING was jarbled. After I spent time in reading the directions and did what I was supposed to do in reading aloud into the microphone, then it just became a matter of editing the text after dumping my spoken words.

[Dak Lander]

On a note about the voice recognitions systems. They are great but for thoughts coming into your dome while toodling down the highway, why not just get a cheap voice activated cassette recorder & jabber away into it. If you're often assailed with the crative juices, mount the darned thing on the dash, via velcro, facing you, & fabber away.