Waxing philosophically...Why do we do what we do?

[Tedster]

I read a quote once that tore me up...it read:

 

"Most people die with their music still in them."

 

I suppose there are several ways to take this...but, I took it to mean "Most people never get (or take) the chance to get something important out of their system". Could be music, literature, something that's buried in them, something creative that was meant to be shared, but most people go to their grave having never shared it.

 

My wife thinks I'm a raving lunatic, but, I explained it to her once thusly:

 

"What do you do when you want to hear a certain song? Play the CD? Request it on the radio? Try to download it off Napster? (when Napster was around).."

 

Then I asked:

 

"But, what if there is no CD? What if the song doesn't exist yet, except in your head?"

 

I'm sure she still thinks I'm a raving lunatic.

 

That said...I write. I record. I wonder if what comes out is total shit to everyone but me. But, is that important? Should we just write to please ourselves, and to hell with everyone else? I mean, no one is beating a path to my door to record my songs. If I believe in it, is that enough?

[rog951]

Obviously, the REAL reason we write songs is to get chicks...

 

That having been said, I've gotta say I think it's almost, if not completely, impossible to write songs solely for one's own self-expression. Unfortunately, it's kinda human nature to seek out some kind of approval and I really have a hard time keeping the songwriting process free from ideas like "does this sound cool enough" or whatever. I hope I'm wrong and I hope someone can help me find a way to detach myself from that type of thinking. There's always a little voice in the back of my head saying something like "you know, eventually you've gotta play this for your brother...are you REALLY gonna leave that line in there about the time you pissed in his cornflakes?" Bad example but I'm sure you get my point. Am I a freak?

[halljams]

Yes i honestly believe one of the reasons

is to get chicks.

But that thought has some roots.

 

It truly is easier to create than to not create, and healthier too.

If we ask ourselves the question:"if i were the only person on the planet, would i continue to make music?"

we can find out alot about why we doing it.

 

I think in some ways it is a means of communicating something about ourselves to people in a way that is less frightning than other ways. Then again,

brutally honest songwriting is not really all that palletable in my opinion, but the writer may have achieved some sort of healing by writing it.

 

I think people have many different reasons for writing and i don't think it matters wether its to heal yourself or express an opinion or get chicks or to just paste a mirage of sounds together.

It's all healthy and positive and forward moving stuff.

Somethings shouldn't be shared. But if part you wants to share and another part is simply afraid, then that is an important hurdle to consider.

 

Good musicians and songwriters are almost always empathetic to everyone else who is working at their art as they understand all the stages of development having gone thru them first hand.

[Jedi]

Wow. Good stuff Halljams.

 

Hey Tedster that quote struck me too. I got a slightly different version. Check it out.

 

"Alas for those who never sing but die with all their music in them."

 

-Oliver Wendell Holmes

 

Yeah. Let me get my ass back to work.

 

Peace out

 

Jedi

[Dan Worley]

I write because if I didn't I would go crazy. It's not the songs it's the process/work of writing that's important to me. But just as a cabinet maker wants to deliver to his customers a piece that looks good and is functional, I too want to write songs that people will appreciate and want to listen to -- that's on my mind when I'm writing. Oh, sure, there are times when it's just therapy and to relieve mental constipation, but ultimately I always plan on sharing my work with others; it's getting the songs to that point which is the challenge and the excitement and why I love songwriting and have to do it.. If I could write a song I was happy with every time I sat down at the piano or picked up the guitar, I would be bored to death with it.

 

Note to self: Do not have breakfast at rog951's house.

 

Regards,

 

Dan Worley

[Faust D]

Yep ... Definitely CHICKS!

[Tedster]

For me, the "chicks" thing was why I started playing guitar...I guess...but not really why I got into writing songs.

 

At any rate, it didn't work. Or, it backfired. I'm married to a woman who doesn't completely understand my need to keep playing guitar.

 

Crap.

[coolhouse]

Originally posted by Dan Worley:

I write because if I didn't I would go crazy.

Yup,that about covers it.

 

Of course,once one enters into the arena of trying to crack the radio market with ones songs,the sad fact is that you're crazy anyway. Ruth Gordon once said,

"Gettin' old aint for sissies." Well neither is gettin' cut.

 

later,

 

Mike

[Sylver]

I've always written songs because I needed an outlet for my words and thoughts ... and I'm far too lazy to be a novelist or journalist ... and I think that most poetry is just silly without music. Sorry to all you poets out there.

[Sudden Light Project]

It's odd, but I made my first paycheck playing at 14, and my last one at 41 (frontwards-backwards yada yada yada). I didn't touch a guitar for five years,and for the first time since 14,I could lay down to sleep without hearing a song in my head... Cool, for a while, but I missed it. I bought a cheap acoustic... thn another strat....I wanted to write songs, but I couldn't focus on the lyrics. It seems that my bag is the abstracts of music composition. I really have a hard time staying focused enough to get to the second verse....

But, all is well...the music in my head keeps me awake now...

[LiveMusic]

This is a question I have pondered before. And I don't know the answer, even for me alone. But I know one reason I write... to leave a legacy. I don't have children but want them and if that doesn't happen, I'll be damned if I'm gonna live and then die and poof, it's over and live having left nothing worthwhile to the world. Should I care about that? Probably not. But I do.

 

It also has to do with pleasing others, I'm sure. And gaining approval. That's human nature. And it is one helluva powerful force.

 

I'll say this though. I'm new to songwriting. Whenever the time comes for me to get my songs critiqued beyond just the handful of friends who have seen them... if that turns out to be really negative, I don't know what I'll do beyond that. Because it's hard. And I think I'm pretty good for a newbie.

 

But if I can't get it down... if the critiquers are people who know good songwriting potential when they see it... more than just friends... people in the business... if the reaction is "No, Duke, you just don't have it," then... I don't know what I'll do. I don't mean that I am going to heart-broken. It won't affect me like that. I'm tougher than that.

 

But if I suck and they see no potential, then I'll just go to something else. If they say, "Wow, these are pretty good," or "Yep, there's potential here. Fix this and this and this," well, I'll just get back to work. Because I do think the process and the end result is awesome.

 

If you read interviews of famous songwriters, they say things that are all over the map. But many say they write to please themselves only and if it doesn't work, screw it... they don't care. Others say differently. Of course, the one's saying it are always successful songwriters, so it's already a given that people do like what they do.

 

Also, one thing that I know... it has already happened to me... is showing something you are very proud of... because, by golly, you think it's GOOD. And you know how damn hard it was for you to get it to where it is... and then you get a blank look from someone. Or not a blank look but an "Oh, that's nice." "That's nice? That's all? Nice?" Like, you're hoping they say "Wow, man, that is incredible." Because you know too well how hard it is to get a good one. And... many top songwriters have said the same thing. How it hurts to have someone reject your baby. So, be advised, it might be as awesome as you think but others may have NO CLUE what's involved.

 

When I see a great song now, great to me, I am very wowed by it. I mean, it's incredibly interesting to me how these songs come to be. Very few come in dreams to songwriters. Usually it's just involves a helluva lot of work. But I've read of many songwriters who have had that happen... to dream a virtually complete song. Now that is very interesting. McCartney's "Yesterday" is the most famous. After all, it's the most recorded song of all time. Not bad.

 

If I have a lack of confidence in any thing, it's the composing. Because I NEVER hear a melody. So far, I just write the lyric and then compose afterwards. And that kinda bugs me... that song melodies aren't jumping out at me. That has never happened. I don't even know if it matters. I guess it doesn't if I write songs that end up with good melodies. But I wonder if maybe I lack something since melodies never manifest themselves to me.

 

Going back to the first part... I think (for me) that it has to do with self-worth. That if I am able to get this down and create some good stuff... that it will boost self-worth. I mean, I'm not depressed or anything like that. I'm just saying that I think it's human nature to seek approval.

 

I think of golf... I worked my arse off to get a +1.2 handicap. There are VERY few people in the world that can claim that. Well, like... a few in any given metro area. Out of thousands of golfers. And I will admit that I saved that handicap card that shows that +1.2. Like a medal or something.

 

Another thing is having run a marathon. I actually ran two in three weeks. A marathon is 26.2 miles nonstop. You bet your booty it's hard. I trained hard for that. I don't even run anymore. I just wanted to conquer it, I guess.

 

This will sum it up. I have never forgotten this... "Why climb a mountain? Because it's there." (Sir Edmund Hillary)

[halljams]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

If I have a lack of confidence in any thing, it's the composing. Because I NEVER hear a melody. So far, I just write the lyric and then compose afterwards. And that kinda bugs me... that song melodies aren't jumping out at me. That has never happened. I don't even know if it matters. I guess it doesn't if I write songs that end up with good melodies. But I wonder if maybe I lack something since melodies never manifest themselves to me.

 

Well you are shooting yourself in the foot already man.

Everything can be improved. All your skills in music and creativity will improve dramatically as soon as you start doing it on a regular basis. It's like riding a wave, but you gotta get up on it and that is the hardest part to do, to get off your ass and make it happen. It's like that for me if i stop for a period of time. It might take me a month to get up the courage to get back on the horse but it all falls together once i do.

If you are not hearing melodies it may be a lack of pitch awareness, you are a killer dancer apparently so i assume your rythm is happening but if not, that is as important.

You made a post regarding ear training. There is a course that has been in all the magazines for years called the David L burge perfect pitch corse.

He has a perfect pitch course and a relative pitch corse.

They are what you want. they are very hard and take a long time to get through depending on what level you start at but they are layed out really good and he makes it easy to do just a little a day, and they work! No Bullshit. I've done them.

 

I don't have perfect pitch but i have a much higher level of note awarness than i ever did before.

 

If you have the intervals in your head at your disposal, all you need to do is get a starting note and you will hear several other places that the note can goto in your head and continue from there. Phrases will be sitting there waiting for you to choose from or manipulate.

It will probly take you up to 2 years to get to this point but it is the most important part of being involved with making music IMO.

You gotta hear things.

 

Also unless you start to make some music and play it for people and hear what they don't dig, you may never find out what you should be working on improving.

You gotta accept that you are gonna do some things that suck. It's ok, we all suck sometimes.

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by halljams:

...Everything can be improved. All your skills in music and creativity will improve dramatically as soon as you start doing it on a regular basis. It's like riding a wave, but you gotta get up on it and that is the hardest part to do, to get off your ass and make it happen.

 

Oh, I realize that. And that's what I've been doing. I am not foolish enough to just think I'm gonna be great right outta the chute. Although, guess what, my first song is actually my favorite or very close to the top as my best song. I wrote that knowing nothing of song structure or whatever. Just did it. But now I know a helluva lot more about songwriting. It should get even better.

 

You gotta hear things.

 

I think I have a pretty good ear. Meaning that most things, I can eventually figure them out. The ear training stuff you mentioned, thanks, I will check that out. That concern has to do with hearing where complex chord progressions go. Easy progressions, I can hear that. And I can ding around and pick out melodies just fine. I just want to develop it so it comes easy.

 

But that was not what I was talking about in this thread regarding songwriting. I was talking about hearing _new_ melodies in your head. A lot of writers start with a melody echoing in their head. That has never happened for me. All of my stuff starts with a lyric. Of course, there are writers that start the same way, so that gives me confidence. I just was wondering if I "should" hear new melodies.

 

Also unless you start to make some music and play it for people and hear what they don't dig, you may never find out what you should be working on improving. You gotta accept that you are gonna do some things that suck. It's ok, we all suck sometimes.

 

Oh, I totally understand that. I pondered on that awhile and finally one day, I charted a famous songwriter's (maybe it was Jimmy Webb) record of commercially successful songs. I think it was 10%. 1 out of 10 made the grade. Of course, due to commercial b.s., there are undoubtedly other good songs in the 90%.

 

On the other hand, I am unaware of Lennon/McCartney having written a lot of songs that were NOT good. I'm not comparing me to them, I'm just saying that that is interesting. They wrote about 200 songs that I am aware of. Rephrase... released about 200 songs. Of those 200, I am VERY fond of at least half of them. Probably more like 2/3 of them.

[halljams]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

But that was not what I was talking about in this thread regarding songwriting. I was talking about hearing _new_ melodies in your head. A lot of writers start with a melody echoing in their head. That has never happened for me. All of my stuff starts with a lyric. Of course, there are writers that start the same way, so that gives me confidence. I just was wondering if I "should" hear new melodies.

 

[

That is actually what i'm talking about too.

Having an acute awarness of the possible intervals will allow that kind of thing to happen for you and will make hearing new melodies in your head a very easy thing to do.

You should be able to pick and choose the direction of the flow of the notes and experiment with the line in your head.

The romantic notion that you may dream a song or just have it come to you is a very real possiblity, but as a songwriter you must also find other ways of making it happen when the magic is nowhere to be found and in fact this is how people work most of the time, so it's important to figure it out.

 

Sorry if i implied you were less capable than you are in the last thread, it's not at all what i meant to do, i was just trying to cover as many bases as possible for you in order to be clear.

[Tedster]

A couple of things to add to Duke's and Hall's discussion...

 

First..."What is more important than having a record is leaving a record."

 

The second is the thing I mentioned elsewhere about Tom Petty moving from Gainesville, Florida, to L.A. with about 100 songs. He got in touch with a producer, who told him of that 100, only about 10 were good enough to record.

 

Hey, the greats have been told they sucked at one time or another, too. Well, most of 'em, anyway.

[DC]

I can certainly relate to that part about no one beating a path to my door wanting to record my stuff. Yet I record anyway and produce my original tunes. I think the biggest reason for me is a feeling of accomplishment. Also, I've listened to my songs so many times just recording them that I'm convinced that some of em are really good. Ya know that repetition thang.

 

So anyway, YES, if you believe in your tunes that's more than enough.

 

 

Originally posted by Tedster:

 

That said...I write. I record. I wonder if what comes out is total shit to everyone but me. But, is that important? Should we just write to please ourselves, and to hell with everyone else? I mean, no one is beating a path to my door to record my songs. If I believe in it, is that enough?

[The Bear Jew]

Why write songs and play 'em?

I guess my answer is wayyyy simpler than a lot of people's... I like it. It's fun. Makes me feel good. Makes me feel like I did something to get the music out of my head and into the world.

Granted, I've gone to some pretty ridiculous lengths to write and play music, and I've spent a ton of money and time while missing out on other things in life, but I can't complain. The music's in me, so I find ways to let it out.

I don't think I'd go crazy if I didn't play or write, but I definitely think I'd be very unhappy if I stopped or couldn't work on music.

I write and play what I like. I don't worry too much about who will like it or if it's marketable. If I like it and my bandmates like it, we're happy. Luckily, some other folks like it as well, so they pay to come see us play. A lot of them want to take the music home on CD and are willing to pay for it. That definitely helps make the whole thing more enjoyable.

[Anifa]

[Anifa]

Okay, so it missed my post a second ago in reply to Dan's post.... I like the line about mental constipation; it's truth in statement. I have somewhat of a haughty attitude when it comes to writing myself. A phrase that I wrote that I use quite frequently when someone asks who I would compare my writing styles to, I reply, "I am a creator and NOT an immitator!" I am who I am and I sound like no other; that's just the way I like it. I started taking Music Theory lessons at one of the Universities and I quickly grew fatigued with the process of dissecting the elements in songs by picking out the separation of tones, half notes, and etc. I took on the attitude that by the time I would complete my theory courses; I would sound EXACTLY like every other educated JOE out there, conditioned!!! Bach, Beethoven, and other great composers did not gain their noteriety by sounding like everyone else; they were unique in their own styles. The Beetles went against the grain of music and set the pace for a legendary new style called Rock and Roll; my Mother HATED the "CRAP" that was being played on the radios creating the teenage craze. I can still remember her screaming at my older sister to turn that d&%$#ed s@##$t down or to turn it off. To my mother and most adults during that era; if it wasn't Johnny Cash, Patsy Cline, or Conway Twitty, it wasn't music.

 

IMO, music is in the "EARS" of the beholder and in a free verse poem that I wrote posted below; it's all about individuality, diversity, and being your OWN person with you OWN identity:

 

Diversity

 

For every ear that listens

to a song in admiration,

there will be an ear that

mutes the sound.

 

For every eye that

beholds a vision of beauty,

there will be an eye that

looks away in scorn

 

For every hand extended

offering goodwill,

there will be a hand that's

pulled away in spite

 

It is separation from the ridicule

of others that allows us the freedom

to be who we are,

and diversity provides us

propriety of distinction

 

Ani`Fa

copyright 2001

 

Do your own thing and SOMEONE out there is going to like it. If ONE person can relate to a song that I've written, or receives a healing from words that I have sculptured into a song; then my efforts have not been in vain. My sense of fulfillment has rewarded me in knowing that an experience that affected me enough to write a song about it has indeed touched someone else's life. To some of us that write, songs are a passage to our soul that allow us to say the words that we were not able to say at a time when they were needed the most. I may not be an educated music scholar, but strength and success comes from within one's own heart and soul; believing in yourself and your OWN dreams is where it all begins. There will always be those who like you and those who don't regardless of who you are, or where you go, or what you do in life. It's your destiny and if someone else is always calling the shots, then you are not navigating your own dreams; you're manufactured.

 

I'm comfortable with myself and confident in my own dreams so therefore I AM a success in life.

 

(Tedster, your mailbox on your private account has reached it's maximum quota; it's rejecting e-mails and returning them as non-deliverable)

 

Musical Regards,

AniFa

[Anifa]

and Tedster.... back to your original question, "Is it selfish?????" It is selfish for a companion to walk into the life of a musician or any person of any Art, knowing fully that the person thrives on self expression, without an understanding of their needs to create. Raving lunatic??? Na!!! Maybe focused on your dreams and insensitive to the needs of others at times as creativity can become very self indulgent when we get deep into our projects; I don't really know your circumstances but I have to remind myself that others around me need to be a part of my life as much as I need to be a part of theirs. I refuse to sacrifice my dreams in whole to appease others, but BALANCE is an absolute necessity in having the best of both worlds. If I want those around me to appreciate my pursuit of dreams, or even be tolerant to them, I force myself to be a part of or at least support their dreams as well. Even if it means setting at the Top of the St. Louis Arch in a collostrophobic tin can for an hour, or walking for hours being bored stiff and getting nauseous from the stinch of wild animal dung at a Zoo when I know I have tons of projects waiting at home that I'd much rather be relaxing into.

[strat0124]

Well Ted, in my case, I can't really remember not making up tunes. As a kid I'd make up looney songs to make my friends and family laugh and always could be heard humming or singing some song I had made up on the spot. After I got a guitar it was all over....it was like heroin. But as far as writing down complete lyrics, that was like junior high, and I wrote a song about my very first car....a 1953 Chevy Belair. And its always been story songs.....I grew up listening to Johnny Cash, Johnny Horton, Tom T. Hall, Everly Brothers and so on. I think the songwriting part of my life is just something I do, kinda like some folks make furniture or cabinets, or somebody else is a softball junkie, or into cars big time. Someone asked me once why I do Electronics as a career, and my answer is simple: To afford my music habit! Fortunately the past two years gigging has paid for the gear...it hasn't always been like that. It still charges my nads everytime I bend a string through a cranked little amp......and I guess writing and recording is just a way to capture that so I can hear it on demand.

[Tedly Nightshade]

posted 03-22-2002 06:34 PM                   

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously, the REAL reason we write songs is to get chicks..

----------

 

This is the first line bullshit that you always hear.

I don't know about you, but I started writing and playing music when I was about three years old.

Indulgent relatives.

I have no idea at all why I do this, or what it is. Lots easier ways to make money or get girls.

What IS music, anyway?

It's a whole lot more than entertainment. It can heal the unhealable.

And I know I don't do it for fun, because it's a deadly serious, if sometimes hilarious, undertaking.

I stopped playing with people who say they play "for fun". That's just more of the bullshit that obscures the ancient sacred and profane mystery of music, songs, and singing.

Some of us are in this way way deep... and no way out, short of a lobotomy.

Ted

[Anifa]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:

posted 03-22-2002 06:34 PM                   

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously, the REAL reason we write songs is to get chicks..

----------

 

This is the first line bullshit that you always hear.

 

Ted

I agree Ted; music and the messages written inside of the lyric content can contain the powers to reach inside of the heart in even the most desolate souls. Some messages are far too deep for shallow minds to comprehend and many just listen for enjoyment of the music and fail to acknowledge what is being said; in this sense entertainment would be relative to the word "fun." There is the ACT of writing and then there is the ART of writing. The ARTIST will reveal a portion of his own soul to reach inside and touch those in need of comfort; many writing artists are self-sacrificing people that find fulfillment in being there for others... self expression heals a wounded soul. The ACTOR will act the part and throw some words together that have no meaning but flow with the groove; many writing actors are people with a motive and are often driven by self-indulgent pleasures such as money, sex, and etc.

 

Music and Writing are both an ART and as you would compare a WaterColor painting to that of an Oil painting; so you would compare the ART of writing to the ACT of writing.

[Tedster]

Hey, these are almost as good as Cereal's Cyborg Acronym thing on Craig's forum...

 

http://brunching.com/cybimages/cyb-CHICKS.gif

 

http://brunching.com/cybimages/cyb-GALS.gif

 

Those are the acronyms the cyborger came up with...

[Anifa]

[Kendrix]

Because I have to.

Its unfathomable.

Im one that would do it even if I were the only person alive on the planet. ( But who would make my gear??)

Its in my DNA. One of my earliest memories is of bangin out the melody from exodus on one of those brightly colored kiddie xylophones.

 

It just is.

[RobT]

Originally posted by Kendrix:

Because I have to.

Its unfathomable.

Im one that would do it even if I were the only person alive on the planet. ( But who would make my gear??)

Its in my DNA. One of my earliest memories is of bangin out the melody from exodus on one of those brightly colored kiddie xylophones.

 

It just is.

Kendrix, for me I think you hit the nail on the head. I have loved music and musical expression for as long as I can remember. Some of my earliest memories involve my response to music or making my own by banging on something. I don't think I could stop it if I tried.

 

RobT

[Jedi]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade

Some of us are in this way way deep... and no way out, short of a lobotomy

I would have to agree with you there all the way. Like RobT said I don't think I could stop either. This little insight has brought me to a question I would like to pose to you guys. Are we addicts? Seriously, Are we addicted to music, are we addicted to the process of making music? Our behaviors sound strikingly similar to that of those addicted to narcotics. "I couldn't stop if I tried," "I don't do it for fun," "the process can get painful at times." We got to admit that writing and producing records gives us just as much pain as it does pleasure. Again, we echo drug addicts. Are we a bunch of people that have traded crack pipes for instruments and gear? I hate to say it but I feel like I'm telling the truth here, What do you guys think?

 

Namaste

 

Jedi

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by dblackjedi:

I hate to say it but I feel like I'm telling the truth here, What do you guys think?

 

Namaste

 

Jedi

Yeah Brah! You nailed it.

[Jedi]

The no nonsense cowboy has seconded my theory. I'm really started to feel this way, brother, now that I look at it. Think about how you feel when you get some new gear or instrument. Your mouth starts to water, your heart beats with a little more thump, I even like the smell of new gear. Think of the sacrifices we put our families through for this music thing.

 

Even these boards are addictive. Really, these boards are nothing more than an alcoholics anonymous type of thing with ocassional information. I mean the info is great, but the thing that keeps me coming to these boards everyday is being able to commune with fellow artists(read junkies) who love music(read drug of choice) as much as I do. Ted was killing it when he was stating the mystery, the art, and all of that good stuff. But honestly, that sounds like a description of an Acid or Herione trip. Just something to think about or not?

 

Namaste

 

Jedi