When a band is just too loud

[JimK]

Last week a few friends and I went to a local pool hall to (what else) shoot some pool, drink a few beers, and watch the live band. The band this night was a cover band from NYC called "Joe Rockstar". I can't tell you if the band was any good, or not. They were so loud that I couldn't hear them. I couldn't hear notes or chords, just a wall of pressure trying to blow my ears out. It's ashamed too, because the lead guitar player had some nice gear that I wanted to hear. A couple of Les Pauls into a Boss GT-3 into a 5150 head with a Marshall cab. While the band setup, the guitar player was doing some sound check stuff and sounded great. He wasn't all that loud either. Once they started going through the PA though, look out. It was so loud that you could notice people trying to avoid getting in front of the stage. Anyone else see a band lately that was just too loud?

[coyote]

I used to think some bands were too loud. In the past few years I've noticed that party DJs are at least as guilty of this as any band I've ever seen. I've seen dance floors empty because no one could stand the volume.... IMO no bar band needs to be miking drums. A Marshall stack just loud enough to induce some feedback, an unmiked drumset, and a PA which puts the singer and keys at a level to be heard properly in that context is all that's neccessary unless you're playing to a few hundred people in a large hall.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by coyote: [b]...IMO no bar band needs to be miking drums. A Marshall stack just loud enough to induce some feedback, an unmiked drumset, and a PA which puts the singer and keys at a level to be heard properly in that context is all that's neccessary unless you're playing to a few hundred people in a large hall...[/b][/quote]I hate to break it to you, but this is an ignorant opinion. Miking drums in a small situation has no direct impact on the overall dB SPL unless the mixer behind the board is inept. I place at least two mics up on drums in almost all situations. Why? Because many drummers play to what [i]they[/i] are hearing from the kit, not necessarily what is appropriate for the room. With only 2 mics I can add a modest amount of bass to the kick and, via a single overhead, to the tom(s). You advocate a Marshall stack, even at modest volume, for a room you believe should not include mic'd drums? That's silly. If the room truly does not require drum mics, then it certainly should be limited to a small combo amp. I, too, hate when volume takes precedence over sound quality. But don't take your frustration out on all live mixers when the real fault usually rests with the bands. (I've been on [i]both[/i] sides of this equation at just about every level, and overwhelmingly it's the band that pushes the volume to overkill. If I had a dime for every band that refused to listen to my advice to turn down and sound good... and I've made that suggestion as a player as well as engineer!)

[AliAlexandre]

I 've stoppped to play in bands just because all the bands i 've tried were playing too loud in rehearsal and live. I was always arguing that music is a matter of nuances, and that a drummer or guitar player should be able to play softly at times in order to give meaning to his playing,... but never been heard in the constant racket...... Alex

[Franknputer]

I gotta go with Neil on this one - drum mics are not inappropriate in a club, although putting them on every freakin' drum is, IMO - much better to put up a couple & let the air around the kit do the work. In my ascending order of importance: Kick - for that 'bump' that everyone wants, unless you have 10" woofers for mains :D Snare - back it off, you'll get the Hi Hat too, and there's 98% of your drum action. 1 mic opposite side of kit from the snare, to grab ride, fills, whatever - basically, this would act w/the "snare" mic as the other half of a stereo pair. Or, try this if you have the mics: 1 kick, 1 Sennheiser 421 split betweer the rack toms, and 1 condenser directly overhead. 3 mics, full kit - done deal! :D And as for Marshall Stacks...these were invented for playing large gigs (stadiums, even!) when there was no such thing as a "PA System" as we know it. Plus, they don't make that "sound" unless you turn them up to 10...better to have a smaller tube combo amp that you can let rip at full blast without creating a problem for the rest of the place. When I was a studio intern, one of the really sweet guitar sounds we had was from a tweed Fender Champ (#0035) turned all the way up - screaming! (Wasn't it Kiss who used to tour with a truckload of UNLOADED Marshall cabs, and then run the guitar to a Fender Deluxe (20 watt amp!) off the side of the stage?)

[Dave Pierce]

Great thread. A guitarist and myself (keys) are looking to form a new band right now. One of our first criteria in auditioning is volume control. If a musician isn't intimately familiar with the 1-5 side of his volume knob, we don't want anything to do with him. There's nothing worse than lining up a bar gig, busting your butt to prepare and setup, then chasing your crowd down the street because it's too loud. My basic test has always been this: A patron should be able to walk up to the bar and raise his voice, but not yell, and place a simple drink order without having to repeat himself. --Dave

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]I hate to break it to you, but this is an ignorant opinion. Miking drums in a small situation has no direct impact on the overall dB SPL unless the mixer behind the board is inept. I place at least two mics up on drums in almost all situations. Why? Because many drummers play to what they are hearing from the kit, not necessarily what is appropriate for the room. With only 2 mics I can add a modest amount of bass to the kick and, via a single overhead, to the tom(s).[/quote]Yep, I've played a lot of places...it's always better when drums are micd.

[coyote]

OK, since you decided to label my opinion 'ignorant' instead of merely differing.... Anyone who does sound knows that, the more mics you use in a system, the less gain you can apply to a given mic before overall system feedback begins. Phase issues also start to creep in. Yet some soundguys insist on micing the drums, the guitar amps, and everything else just so they can get the ego rush of being "in control" instead of serving the music. I've heard enough awful-sounding bands to know the sound guy is clueless.... BTW, I've played in live situations for the past 25 years as a drummer, then as a guitarist, and currently as a keyboardist. A drumset w/ a properly-tuned 20" kick is enough for *any* bar! No mics neccessary - and I could always hear myself just fine. Same for the rest of the kit. And a Marshall stack is a *tonal* device as much as a volume device! My Marshall w/ its 4x12 cabinets sounds better than my Fender combo amp in nearly every playing situation. I haven't turned it up to 11 in many years. In fact, I used to run the Fender combo thru the 4x12 and sometimes still do. But if the stage has room, the 4x12 is there because of its tone. A full stack allows the added richness of a floored cabinet while putting another cab up in the player's ear so he can hear himself properly and not need all that volume. And having the top cab also allows feedback at much lower volume. No mr.fantasticsound, I don't have an "ignorant opinion" here. Do you perhaps? [quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]I hate to break it to you, but this is an ignorant opinion. Miking drums in a small situation has no direct impact on the overall dB SPL unless the mixer behind the board is inept. I place at least two mics up on drums in almost all situations. Why? Because many drummers play to what [i]they[/i] are hearing from the kit, not necessarily what is appropriate for the room. With only 2 mics I can add a modest amount of bass to the kick and, via a single overhead, to the tom(s). You advocate a Marshall stack, even at modest volume, for a room you believe should not include mic'd drums? That's silly. If the room truly does not require drum mics, then it certainly should be limited to a small combo amp. I, too, hate when volume takes precedence over sound quality. But don't take your frustration out on all live mixers when the real fault usually rests with the bands. (I've been on [i]both[/i] sides of this equation at just about every level, and overwhelmingly it's the band that pushes the volume to overkill. If I had a dime for every band that refused to listen to my advice to turn down and sound good... and I've made that suggestion as a player as well as engineer!)[/b][/quote]

[surfjunkie]

fantasticsound gives fantastic sound advice. this question/comment comes up here every once in a while. of course every club/band situation is different, and i wasn't there, but i'd "blame" the drummer. i'll bet the snare mic was off (except maybe for reverb) and the band was amplified to that level. but your comment was really about bands playing too loud in clubs, and i agree. i don't go out to rock clubs often for that reason. and i always wear earplugs when i do. i think someday i'd like to own a small music club (somebody shoot me now!). if i do, i'll work closely with live sound and acoustics experts to design the space, not just build a stage and put up stacks. it would be great if a band could set up and play the way they want without busting anyone's eardrums.

[Tedster]

I like the sound of mic'ed drums. I wouldn't mic 'em in the VFW hall, but if you've got a larger room, yeah...not necessarily for a lot of volume, just for presence.

[JimK]

Yikes, I didn't mean to start a fight. coyote: I agree with you that a 4x12 cabinet sounds better then a 2x12 or 1x12 (most of the time :) ). This place was probably too big to not mike the drums. But like I said, the band didn't seem to be too loud on their own. I think the PA was the house's, and it was the problem. And that's what really surprises me. I can understand that there's a lot of bands out there that want to be loud, because they think that's the "cool" thing to do (and they don't know any better). But why would a bar willingly crank the volume level to the point where it's driving customers out the door? While I was leaving, there was a guy fighting with the bouncers to get in. (He had no ID. Hello!? Going to a bar? Here's a tip, bring an ID.) A couple of people told him on the way out, "Don't bother, this band sucks!" I've got to believe that their comments were due to the volume level.

[Franknputer]

One reason to mic more stuff is to have all the audio eminating from the PA at relatively the same time - different distances between the physical location of the instruments & the PA can cause delays that become problematic. It's less of an issue in a small club, but it is audible in a surprisingly small space. (An extremely rough estimate can be done by 1 foot=1 ms delay, so put your amp 10 feet from the PA & you are now 10 ms behind the sounds coming from the PA.) Also, having to balance the PA to couple with the stage volume is tricky, and as often as not it seems that many musicians are reluctant, if not unwilling, to make the necessary changes in "their sound" to make it play nice with the PA. By the way - I am also a guitarist. :D

[luuker]

WHAT!!??!! -luuker-

[Franknputer]

Sorry for the 2nd post, but I have to speak to the idea of the soundperson as a "control freak". Sure, there are some guys out there who use their position to pump up their deflated egos, I'll grant you that. But, how often does soemone in the crowd come up on the stage in the middle of a song & start telling you what to do musically? For the soundman, it happens practically every night. Also, being in a band makes you responsible for 1 or 2 hours of sound (ok, maybe you're the house band...) whereas the soundperson is responsible for the entire night (or day & night, if it's a festival) and when you are in some other club, or at home, or in a bus the next night, he'll still be there at the same rig, doing it all again. So, when he's mixing somebody, he's got to deliver what the club & crowd expect, and not shoot himself in the foot for tomorrow. Some food for thought.

[Tom Capasso]

I went to hear a friend who was playing a showcase at a club in NYC. I thought my ears would fall off. All the bands I heard were way too loud. One singer had trouble hearing himself so he could stay on pitch - no surprise !! If I needed to see a friend, I'd be sure and bring some ear protection next time - or maybe listen from a block away... As to mic'ing the drums, I could see it. There are times when parts of the sond gets swallowed. If the sound is done carefully, you can make up for that sort of thing. We played a small bar that had the bar set up as a rectangle on one side of the room. The bar had the requisite overhang (for glasses and whatever). Since we do our own sound and are learning our way, we didn't know how to overcome this (if there is a way), so people on the far side of the bar couldn't hear the vocals well (cabs on tripods - sound blocked by the overhang). We have a drummer and percussionist - the percussionist thought no one would hear him (we're a 6 piece classic rock outfit). I put a boom box across the room on otpof a booth (but not behind the bar area). The recorded result showed plenty of percussion. It also showed people talking the whole time. I thought we were too loud for talking, but I guess not (that's a good thing). The only problem we had was the lead guitar wasn't loud enough, so next time we play there we'll have to position his amp better. Tom

[Franknputer]

Professional Audio Secret #714: Just because a mic is pointed at something doesn't mean you have to turn it on... :D

[Wewus432]

Did anybody mention a sound level meter here's a cheap one: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spl-meter_e.html I think that's a tool that most rock bands should have, and club owners too.

[k1neta]

Musicians need to learn how to keep stage volume down. That's basically the biggest problem with most bands. Drummer not capable of hitting "less hard" with enough punch (read: bad technique). Guitarists with those ****ing Marshall stacks blasting away. and so on.... . It's perfectly possible having a great live sound in a club, even if micing an entire drum kit. And sometimes, considering the music being played, micing the whole lot is necessary. Unless I play very low-key acoustic gigs, I always mic the entire kit. The key is, as I said, keeping it down on stage. Then you won't have to turn the PA all the way up to drown that freaking Marshall (both of em, if you have 2 guitarists...) on full tilt. In other words, a smaller amp, prefferably a combo will do the trick. The guitarist who can't seem to get a good "tone" out of a good combo amp needs to practice his playing. The tone is in yer fingers, not yer amp :D (FYI, in another band I am the lead vocalist/guitarist. With that band I always use a 60W combo on stage. That amp has never been turned higher up than 5. And it still sounds good.) That being said, on the last few gigs I've done, we've actually had to turn up the PA mucho a lot, because the house DJ was playing so loud he made us sound like acoustic smooth jazz in comparison. A rock band can't have that. So we did push them thar faders up a bit. And nobody has ever complained about us being too loud. So we must be doing something right :) All right. Incoherent rant over. K.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by coyote: [b]OK, since you decided to label my opinion 'ignorant' instead of merely differing....[/b][/quote]Point taken.. you have a right to your opinion. Sometimes I miss the, "IMO". Sorry. Now that would've been the point to take your chips and leave, but you had to try and defend your opinion as fact... tsk..tsk. :D [quote]Originally posted by coyote: [b]Anyone who does sound knows that, the more mics you use in a system, the less gain you can apply to a given mic before overall system feedback begins. Phase issues also start to creep in.[/b][/quote]Technically true. Neither will affect a half decent system with a skilled technician behind the board. I rarely have any issues with system feedback with bands. Of course I tune the system before soundcheck. Gain? I could beat you senseless with gain if you want me to prove that the gain before feedback shouldn't be an issue. If a kick mic limits your system gain before feedback or creates phase problems, you've got far worse problems with mixing and yes, you should get rid of any extra mics. As for the overhead, if it's a problem, you can always decrease it's level or mute it altogether. (On several small stages in the Mideast, the drummer for Mink used it for presence in his ear monitors while none was pumped through the house.) [b] [quote]Yet some soundguys insist on micing the drums, the guitar amps, and everything else just so they can get the ego rush of being "in control" instead of serving the music. I've heard enough awful-sounding bands to know the sound guy is clueless.... BTW, I've played in live situations for the past 25 years as a drummer, then as a guitarist, and currently as a keyboardist. [/b][/quote]I agree there are egotistic, SOB's running sound at many bars. I've been on the receiving end of these guys more than once. That has nothing to do with the desire to extend the kit sound to [i]everyone[/i] with drum mics. I never said drum mics will fix a poor tech's mix. If you're having trouble with soundmen, find one who's skilled that you trust and pay him to mix all your gigs. You'll never know if the fault lies with the soundman or the band, unless it's something obvious such as the mixer muting a channel on the board. Even then, it could be a system problem. There are too many variables. I tend to mic everything possible, because I can always [i]turn off[/i] the mic. It looks pretty stupid, running an extra mic in the middle of a set because you assume an instrument won't be necessary in the house mix. I let a band talk me into that once... once! Speaking for myself, I care at least as much as the talent about the overall sound. My reputation, future work and pay depends on it. But mostly I care because I want them to sound better when I'm mixing than anywhere else. I always take pride in the comment, "Man, I didn't know this bar/band could sound this good!" I hear it a lot. [quote]Originally posted by coyote: [b]A drumset w/ a properly-tuned 20" kick is enough for *any* bar! No mics neccessary - and I could always hear myself just fine. Same for the rest of the kit. [/b][/quote]Your opinion. I disagree. It won't adequately carry the bass response expected in modern rock bands, throughout small - medium rooms, except at very low SPL. Maybe if we're talking jazz... It took me about 10 min. to convince the drummer when I mixed Bill Frissell that two mics were for m-i-n-i-m-a-l adjustment in the house to extend his kit, and the third was simply there for control over an aux mix to MD. [quote]Originally posted by coyote: [b]And a Marshall stack is a *tonal* device as much as a volume device! My Marshall w/ its 4x12 cabinets sounds better than my Fender combo amp in nearly every playing situation. I haven't turned it up to 11 in many years.[/b][/quote]Outside of you, I know one guitarist with a half stack who understands that he must control his level, and not control the band level by his stack. Most others pull out the, "It doesn't sound right if it isn't loud," or "This is rock and roll, it's supposed to be loud." As if I'm supposed to magically polish his turd, because he can't play at an appropriate level for the room. I refuse to mix above an out of control rock band. 140db SPL is not an option in the seating area, and I've had to endure this from other mixers before. (With earplugs, of course, but it was still too loud.) [quote]Originally posted by coyote: [b]In fact, I used to run the Fender combo thru the 4x12 and sometimes still do. But if the stage has room, the 4x12 is there because of its tone. A full stack allows the added richness of a floored cabinet while putting another cab up in the player's ear so he can hear himself properly and not need all that volume. And having the top cab also allows feedback at much lower volume.[/b][/quote]Now you're talkin'! :) That's exactly my point! I don't care what cabinet you use, so long as you don't aim a 100 watt head through several cabs at the audience, killing any chance they have of hearing anything else. I'm a huge fan of Ultimate Support's Genesis Amp stand, because it aims the cabinet at the players head. This, instead of dialing up way to much level and high end on the amp because the player's head is off axis from the speaker(s). (Someone in the audience always end up on the receiving end of that one! If I'm [i]really lucky[/i] the moron points it at FOH, and all I can hear is shrill guitar.) [quote]Originally posted by coyote: [b]No mr.fantasticsound, I don't have an "ignorant opinion" here. Do you perhaps?[/b][/quote]That's grand! I'm no world famous soundman, feel free to email me if you really want to know my background and education/experience behind the board. Ignorant of live sound mixing? Without tooting my horn too loud, I think not. Now fishing... fishing I know diddley squat about. So please, please reply that I'm ignorant about fishing so you can get a nice dig in. ;D :D Well, let's summarize your points. 1. You seem to have knowledge of feedback and phase concerns, but blindly cancel the drum mics as the only way to solve these issues. 2. You claim that the number of mic'd instruments will inform you which soundmen are ego-driven control freaks who don't care about the music. 3. Apparently a 20" kick, to you, is the end all of needs in "*any* club." 4. You infer that, since you play to the room with your stack and utilize lower volume by using the top cab for controlled feedback, other guitarists do too. (God! If this were only true I'd have a few less frayed nerves! ;) ) Yep... the first two are still kinda ignorant. (Meaning you are unaware of several ways other than 86'ing the mics to solve gain/feedback and phase problems, and the number of mics will not clue you in to who is and who isn't a control freak. It's what they do with those tools that gives away the clueless.) The third is your opinion, one that I do not share, and the last simply says you see other guitarists who use stacks in clubs through rose-colored glasses. I stand corrected on several points. I think... what were we talking about?

[Philip OKeefe]

If the band's too loud, wear GOOD earplugs. I don't go to concerts, clubs or pre-production rehersals anymore without a set of plugs. My ears are just too valuable to me, and it's too easy to slip a pair into a pocket "just in case" for me NOT to have a set available at all times "just in case". Trying to convince bands that their on stage volume is just too darn loud is one of the reasons I stay away from live sound.

[Dwarf]

Wow, am I in the right room for an argument? I think so :wave: OK, when I do sound I like to mic everything. As has been stated already, if I don't need it in the mix I bring down the fader. I usually find that a little is needed just for presence. A drumkit at 40 feet usually sounds pretty thin when gauged against the rest of the band coming out the P.A. I usually do my best to get the band to turn down or face the guitar amps inwards. I'll never understand why most guitarists point their amp at their ass. Hello, you ears are where? Your guitar amp is your [b]monitor[/b], use it as such and your band's sound will get immeasurably better. The worst case I ever had to deal with was a punk band whose guitarist had a 200 watt Marshall which he had on 10. The bassist had his Marshall on 10. The only thing coming through the mains was kick drum and vocal, and they were fighting for their lives. 120db at the soundboard which was 50 feet back from the stage. Nothing on earth could have motivated me to walk closer to the stage. (According to their roadie they sounded great that night, better than most nights.) When I'm playing drums I mic each drum. My 20" kick (which is very well tuned thank you very much) is definitely not "enough" when it has to compete with most guitarists. And don't get me started on DJs, I can't stay in the bar when most DJs start their assault. Even with earplugs I find it too loud. -- Rob

[Steve LeBlanc]

Well regardless of all this...it really comes down to the musicians, they are either legitimate or wankers. A good musician wants the whole group to sound good not just himself...so if you have a group of good musicians everyone adjusts and it sounds great...even better with mics on everything so the 'soundguy' can adjust to optimize what the audience is hearing (which is different from what the band hears even in the smallest clubs). So yeah...it's the wankers fault, not the PA.

[surfjunkie]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]Now fishing... fishing I know diddley squat about. So please, please reply that I'm ignorant about fishing so you can get a nice dig in. [/b][/quote]you're full of carp. :o

[henrysb3]

One of my mottos is: Just because the buffet says all you can eat does not mean that's all you should eat. Same goes for FOH sound. I have tinnitus from several loud occupations, including standing in front of a 4X12. This issue will only become more visible as the boomers age.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by wager47: [b] [quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]Now fishing... fishing I know diddley squat about. So please, please reply that I'm ignorant about fishing so you can get a nice dig in. [/b][/quote]you're full of carp. :o [/b][/quote]LMAO, wager47... You don't know the half of it! Most nights I [i] flounder[/i] behind the console. (Don't look!) [i]Shell[/i] I even [i]fish[/i] for complements on my [i]crappie[/i] mixes? Holy [i]mackerel[/i], my [i]sub[/i] went down... (I think it's time I [i]clam[/i] up, before I get [i]hooked[/i]! ;) ) [i]Whale... sea[/i] you later! (Couldn't resist two more! :freak: )

[BassGuy]

One of my favorite players came through town with his new band. I'd seen them at an outdoor festival a couple of years ago and had a wonderful time. This time, in a hall seating about a thousand people, it was JUST TOO #$*#$*# LOUD!!! EVERY bass drum hit, and EVERY bass note, was like a kick in the sternum. WITH earplugs, there was an uncomfortable pressure roaring in my ears. Only ONE song was anything below ffff volume level - they went down to plain old fortissimo for the "mellow" piece (no drums). That "backed way off" level would have been my choice for the loudest peaks of the whole night. It was impossible to tell where the guitar fuzz left off and the keyboards began. On the album, these instruments are beautifully balanced and distinctive. The drum set had lots of individual mics, the bass player had a stadium-sized stack (I think it was 4x12 on top of 1x15), the keyboard player had a pair of EON speakers right behind him, the guitarist had a small mic'd amp behind him and a pair of huge monitors in front of him that were as loud as the PA. And they all had in-ear monitors! YUCK! I wanted to find more about how to win the volume wars. So far I've found two sources of hope: one is the THX certification & calibration process for motion picture mixing and presentation, the other is Bob Katz's "K-20" and "K-14" level settings (average volume at 20 or 14 db below digital full scale). I'd love to have concert halls rated by a third party so that I'd know to come and expect a nice night, to expect a nice night with earplugs, or - as in this recent concert - to have stayed home. The last show I saw at the auditorium was straight ahead jazz - drums, digital piano, stand-up bass, and saxaphone - at a delightful volume. I think both tours were small enough to use the house provided sound tech. I understand having an exciting piece and a loud finale, but I just don't get the appeal of having music so loud it hurts, ALL the time.

[where02190]

I've been watching this post grow for w abit now, and figure it' stime for my 2 cents worth. Being raised a live engineer, cutting my teeth so to speak in the bars before graduating to touring, and being a player as well, I uderstand a bit about both sides of the coin. For the bands, it is about understanding dynamics and getting a good sound without the aid of a sound system, so the sound system acts as distribution to the audience. two problems now occur, generally with one cause. A bad system not properly designed to distribute evenly throughout the room, and an ignorant/inexperienced engineer. Problem: generally the club is too cheap to pay. they spend the minimum they can to get a PA in the room, and bottom line wages for the cheapest guy they can get to mix. A receipe for disaster. The maintainence and daily operation of the system suffers, because the guy has little to no experience. the audience suffers, and ultimately the bar suffers. From the engineers standpoint, if he/she has a clue there are many ways to move up the ladder to better pay. If a band is too loud, othere than ask/suggest they turn down beyond touching the knob and smiling, there is little they can do with a band with bad dynamics. If they don't have a clue, they are at the mercy of their skill level, and need to adjust the learning curve quickly in order to make the best of what they have. Often than not, the house guy has been there for yeasr as opportunity passed him/her up, and well, it's a place to hang out, get free drinks, etc., and they end up subscribing to the "this is the way I always do it" theory of clubheads. Ignorance is far from bliss. Not all of this applies 100% of the time, however in most cases I see it comes down to the venue paying decent money for both a good system and operator. Otherwise eveyone suffers. We live in a loud world. Every place that has music thinks they need a PA. I stop going out to dinner on the wekends as it seems every place I go has wome sort of "entertainment", like I want/need that during dinner. I recently went to a fav Mexican place for a business meeting on a thursday night. Place holds about 100 maybe. Some guy playing guitar and singing, wireless on the guitar, wireless headset, all plgged into a couple of speakers on sticks. We were trying to talk, and found ourselves shouting over this guy. this was an important client, so I went ot the manager, who I also had to shout to. Isexplained who I was, and my opinion. Ended up he went over and shot off Mr. Roaming Musicians stuff. everyone applauded. He kept playing acoustic, and it was perfect. Now I'm not saying every rock club shold do the same thing. yes you need reinforcement for these places, but remember it is reinforcement. People come to have a good time, dance, sing and enjoye eachothers company. Not much enjoyment in shouting into eachothers ears. Without the patrons we are all out of a job. As always just MHO.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by BassGuy: [b]...I wanted to find more about how to win the volume wars. So far I've found two sources of hope: one is the THX certification & calibration process for motion picture mixing and presentation, the other is Bob Katz's "K-20" and "K-14" level settings (average volume at 20 or 14 db below digital full scale)...[/b][/quote]Not sure what you're going for here. THX cert. has nothing to do with live sound in a concert hall, auditorium, or bar. THX assumes a mixed and mastered recording. Live instrument mixes and post-production movie mixes are apples and hamburgers. (To have said, "oranges" would indicate they're possibly similar enough to compare! ;) ) I don't know about Katz' system, but "14dB below digital full scale" sounds like you're confusing [i]recording[/i] level on digital media with control over speaker levels. Is this correct? If so, I could use a digital mixer to apply his standard and still blow your ears out with a powerful amp/speaker setup. One has nothing to do with the other. Please correct me if I misunderstand the use of his system. [quote]Originally posted by BassGuy: [b]...I'd love to have concert halls rated by a third party so that I'd know to come and expect a nice night, to expect a nice night with earplugs, or - as in this recent concert - to have stayed home...[/b][/quote]Wouldn't we all!!! :D It's just not feasable. Most of these locations do not have concert sound systems, and even those that do will be usurped by the sound systems that travel with name acts, which are vastly different from one another. (Not to mention you have different engineers who don't all mix the same. ;) ) One night may be no plugs, the next you need plugs, and the next you wish you'd stayed home. Even if the sound system stays constant this can be the case. You can get info on spaces from people who have listened and/or worked in them, but these are usually semi-informed opinions at best. If I gave you my opinion of the Nashville arena based on the Kiss reunion tour in 1997 (my first concert there), you'd stay away for certain. It was everything we've been complaining about. The level was so high and the mix messed up, it took me 30 seconds, with earplugs, to identify some of their most famous songs. (Songs I've known for 25 years!) On the other hand, I've heard upwards of 50 concerts there, and all but one sounded fantastic. It's wonderful, for an arena. You run the risk of an opinion representing one or two shows, and not an objective look at the space itself. [quote]Originally posted by BassGuy: [b]...I understand having an exciting piece and a loud finale, but I just don't get the appeal of having music so loud it hurts, ALL the time. [/b][/quote]Preaching to the choir! We have a WIT-ness from the congre-GA-tion!! Can I get an "AAAAAMEN!!"? ;)

[Ultravibe]

Running live sound, I have: "Made them sound better than they ever have before." That's when the band actually listens to me and turns down, and lets me do my damn job of mixing. When they don't... well, it's a toss up whether they'll sound good or not. Of course, I've been to see bands where the live sound guy has no clue that an EQ can cut as well as boost. "I'll just crank up right in the 150 Hz range on everything. That'll give it some balls!" Drew

[videoeditor1]

This is tangential, because I have nothing new to add to the main thrust of the thread...I read and see everybodys different perspectives... There [i] are [/i] venues (yes, even clubs!) that mandate a specific SPL limit at the mix position. Some (other) venues operate at the grace of the community...or local law enforecement, and are required to monitor and not exceed certain decibel levels at mix position, at the outer edge of the venue(s), upstairs (for some clubs) etc etc. There are clubs in the UN area of manhattan that come to mind, a nice venue in Maui, Hawaii - where thanks to a screaming audience we ran up a big tab :) , the Wolf's Trap in VA (?), another spot in Atlanta, .... It's so bad at some of these venues, that one time I had a 85dB/A from the mix position. During the sound check, the system engineer tapped me on the shoulder - I was hitting 90dB from house mix. As it turns out, all the VCA's were muted, we were hetting 90dB on the meters from the STAGE :eek: mixes. During the night, the sys engineer pretty much threw the meter away, since even between songs the audience was hooting and cheering in the 90dB range ... :) NYC Drew