The Band Van

[Lee Flier]

So I'm on the lookout for a full sized van for my band, for getting to local and out of town gigs. We aren't planning on extensive touring at the moment, but regional touring for a weekend to a week at a time. But it would be nice to plan ahead too, in case we DO start touring more extensively. Having had van touring experience in the past I have a pretty good idea what we'll need, but hey, the last time I toured I didn't have the benefit of all these other folks on the Internet and the invaluable information that always comes from lots of people sharing their experiences. So, if you've hit on the ultimate "road van from hell" or want to share any tips about making your touring life comfy, please do! For example: Any particular vehicles that were particularly suited for the purpose? Any that were particularly UNsuited/unreliable/whatever? What kinds of modifications did you do to your vehicle, to make it more suited for a touring band? e.g. safety divider for the gear, bunks (where'd you put them and how), luggage racks or whatever. Little things would cool too, that have made life easier. How about that clothes iron that runs on a 12 volt car battery? How do you eat on the road without resorting to fast food (or DO you resort to fast food)? That kind of thing. Of course, all of the above must take into consideration the fact that we are an independent band with very limited funds, so tips that are cheap and DIY are good! So Road Warriors of the Order of the Van Tour, share your stories! --Lee

[KHAN]

One Word : Diesel. Hi Lee :wave:

[jackpine]

Bruce Berry was a working man he used to load that Econoline.......van Seriously. For the small cargo van type thing an econoline is a great way to go. There are a million of them out there, they're cheap to buy, cheap to fix and they'll go forever. Have over 200k on an '84 I still have. jim

[Tedster]

Lee, Ya wanna know what I'd do? I'd look into an older conversion van. These things lose value quite quickly, but comfy cruise...like maybe a '90-'95 model year. So, you could buy one cheap. Put a trailer hitch on the ol' girl, and buy yourself an old U-Haul type trailer. Band equipment in the trailer, band in the van. Cruise comfy. Paint something on the side of the U-Haul like "Acme Dead Livestock Removal Service"...[i]no one[/i] will fuck with it. Oh yeah...no diesels in colder climates during the winter months...they suck in cold weather. But, since you're in Atlanta it'd work. Oh yeah, and, if you wanna feel like the Partridge Family, you can pick up old school buses cheap. But, I had a couple horrible experiences with the Stephen King school bus from hell, so, I tend to shy away from them.

[Lee Flier]

I'm with you guys: yes, I'm looking pretty much exclusively at Econolines, and yeah Ted I'm looking mostly at older conversions. The Club Wagons seem particularly cool cuz they have those extended bodies, so's you can pull the back seats out and fit all your gear in, and still have plenty of room for the humans. And we've considered the trailer idea too.... don't know if we can afford both right now, but we'll see. Khan: why diesel? --Lee

[Duhduh]

I once owned an RV conversion van. Ya know, the regular kind of van with the extended top, installed fridge, sink, fold-out bed, etc. VERY cool! The extended top was cool 'cause you could stand up. Very important when on long trips! Oh, and with the outlets installed, made easy for hooking up all various needed electronics! And who can beat the min-fridge to keep your beer cold! (its legal to drink in the back of an RV converted van. At least in California)

[Duhduh]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b] Khan: why diesel? --Lee[/b][/quote]Probably because diesel is cheaper. But its also harder to find. You could easily run out of gas trying to find a station that sells it!

[videoeditor1]

Lee, The typical household clothes pulls anywhere from 7~12 amperes. I haven't seen many 12v versions..... If you got a DC>AC inverter that straps on to the cig. lighter, it would hav eto be pretty big, and the van would have to be running while you ironed a few clothes. In the past, we'd do the weekend gig/ van thing, but always book a room or two at the nearest Comfort/Quality/Day's Inn, just so that we could have access to the essentials (then, running water & clothes; now: internet access). Best of luck on your quest. If you buy (well) used, it boils down to how well the previous owners maintained the vehicle. NYC Drew

[nhcomp45aol.com]

The 15 passenger Dodge vans are cheap and very reliable. You can remove the extra seats in minutes. I use one for the band and have one for my trailer race car rig. All of the V-8s available with these are great.With a 318 in good tune and oversize tires you can get about 20 mpg. My race rig has a 4.10 rear. A 3.23 is better for a band van. Paul.

[rickpowell]

I have experience with many touring vehicles large & small. I've got some questions & ideas here. Q: How many people/#'s of equipment are you planning to haul? Comment: A well-maintained Econoline-type van will do well in "light duty"...that is, a few people, a smallish PA and minimal band gear. Once you're hauling serious equipment, I'd suggest at least a 1 ton "heavy duty" type vehicle (most of the "full-size" vans can be obtained in this style, like the Ford E350). If you are towing a trailer, you will also want a heavy-duty towing package. The typical mid-sized sound rig, decent-sized amps, etc., plus a few people put a pounding on the springs, shocks, and steering components of a van. Personally, I find U-Haul/Wells Cargo/etc. type trailers to be a safety hazard while driving, and a PITA to drive in urban traffic situations. Q: how many miles are you going to put on? Comment: If you're going to criscross North America, I wouldn't want to be towing a trailer or toting equipment in a van. I'd opt for something like an Iveco-style diesel straight truck. These things are relatively compact, can take a beating and will give you 300k+ miles between engine overhauls. (That's the main reason people are in diesels who do serious hauling...less moving parts, less maintenance, longer wear, a little bit better fuel efficiency for comparable engines). I've seen them modified to carry cargo in the back, with a passenger compartment accessible from the cab, occupying the front of the cargo box. And you can load a hell of a lot more equipment in a 12' or 14' cargo box vs. a van. Q: comfort vs. efficiency? Comment: No doubt, a conversion-type van is a comfortable way to travel. Not too much practical room for equipment, though. A small motor-home type vehicle might be a good choice if you've got a moderate amount of equipment. Most of them aren't really set up well to haul stuff other than people, though. Vehicles to avoid, IMO: Step-van trucks (the "Frito-Lay" type vehicles). Trust me, no one wants to drive 400 or 500 miles over the road in one of these. Personally, I wouldn't want to tour with a used school bus either, although I know a band from MI that criscrossed the US in one for several years. Lots of room in that one, but loading/unloading was a bear, and no A/C! I used to own an International straight truck with a 22' cargo box and a 466 gasoline engine. That thing was in the shop as much as it was on the road. HTH, RP

[Dak Lander]

Hi Lee. Let me preface this by letting you know I'm an ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician in my real life. I've held Truck Certs in the past too, but have given them up. How much do you plan on spending on a van or conversion? That'll make a lot of difference as to what you want to, or can, get as well as whether or not you can swing a trailer. Make & model is pretty much a moot point & only goes with personal preference. None are really any better than any other. It all depends on what kind of care they've had before you get it. So, with that in mind, if it were mine to do, I would go with a 3/4 ton van or conversion with a large V-8 engine & automatic trans. You'll want front and rear air and heating. You'll want a transmission cooler installed in addition to the in radiator cooler. Keep in mind it's going to be cramped with your gear. I'd go with a trailer. They aren't that expensive. Home Depot has a nice covered trailer for under $2k & as posted above, you can try to find a used U-Haul but you'll have to have it gone over, axle bearings, springs, perches, lights & etc. You'll want the van checked out by a competent mechanic too so the brakes, suspension, & other safety related things are A-1. Mechanically it should also be in tip top shape. You might also look at a class 3 motorhome in good shape. It'll have more room inside. First stop is [url=http://www.kbb.com]Kelley Blue Book[/url] for a cost basis in your area. Check all three prices they usually show on their site. The trade in, dealer and street price. That'll give you realistic values and you can then work from there as to what year you can go with. I'll be happy to help you walk through it if you think you need it & give me a shout at info@daklandermusic.com if you want information on a unit you find. Happy hunting... :D Added note per the 15 passenger van. Lots of states require a special drivers license for 15 passengers & above whether it's called a chauffeurs license or a class B or what ever. Check that before getting one of those.

[Curve Dominant]

[quote]posted by Tedster: [b]Paint something on the side of the U-Haul like "Acme Dead Livestock Removal Service"...no one will fuck with it.[/b][/quote]F*CKING GREAT IDEA MAN!!! LOL! Oh, the stories about gear-loaded trucks stolen from under the noses of bands I've heard...and seen on occasion. One example... John Scofield & band put on a killer show one night at Zanzibar Blue. Scofield had his hi-tech electro-fusion guitar rig, and his keyboardist had the vintage Hammmond de-lux w/ vintage Leslie speakers. Bob Wall was in true form with vintage kit. Killer gear, positively scorching gig. The Curve was working there that night and so I got to experience it for free (since I was on the sauté station which closes early)... Don't you know, at the end of the night, their driver, after ALL of the gear was loaded into the truck, started the engine, [i]and then proceeded to get out of the truck un-attended to go back into the club with the truck idling and the keys in the ignition.[/i] Gone-O. Vanished. Like, 90 seconds, tops. Some lucky brother jumped in that rig and took off. Bear in mind: this is Philly. When something gets stolen here, it's gone, finished, period, and good luck with the insurance claim. Don't let this happen to you, Lee. Vaya con Dios.

[fantasticsound]

Another reason to consider diesel, cold weather or hot: Should you have difficulty finding a hotel in extreme temperature weather (hot or cold), you can stay in the van with the engine idling indefinitely (or until the fuel runs out. This is a very bad idea in a gasoline engine. When we moved to Nashville from Chicago, I rented a U-Haul 17 foot truck. I was supposed to get a near brand new, gasoline engine vehicle. Instead, they screwed the pooch and had to scramble for another truck. It ended up being a diesel. After procrastinating instead of packing, it took us all day and half the night to clear and clean the apartment we were vacating. My wife had passed out an hour or two [i]before[/i] our departure, and I let her doze off again as soon as we were in the truck. We left at 3am, on a cold October 4th. It was around 30 degrees fahrenheit, without the windchill. I'd barely driven an hour before succumbing to exhaustion. Because the truck was a diesel, I was able to park next to the big rigs in a truck stop and sleep a few hours in heated comfort before setting out again. This would have been impossible with a gas engine. We'd have had to find a hotel for a few hours. (An expense we could not afford at the time.) I'm curious if all consumer diesels have poor cold weather performance. As we all know, 18 wheelers are all diesel engines, as are city buses, and they have no more or less trouble in cold weather than other vehicles. Do commercial diesel engines have something consumer vehicles do not?

[rickpowell]

Wax particles will begin to form in diesel fuel in sub-zero temperatures. If the particles become big enough, they will clog filters, etc. In frigid climates, there are additives used to combat this effect. Cold-weather starting is also more difficult with a diesel engine (but is often tough with gasoline engines...for different reasons). RP

[Lee Flier]

All good ideas, guys. Our needs are pretty humble, really. We're a 3 piece band with a 4 piece drum kit, small guitar combo, small bass combo, small PA (couple of 18" cabs, couple of wedges, combo head). We can fit everything into a minivan but it's a very tight squeeze! I think the extended body Ford or Dodge would be a good choice cuz we'd really rather not get into the trailer thing and the longer body would EASILY be enough room for us and our gear. And for the time being we are not planning to tour the whole continent; we're mostly sticking to the Southeast. Our bass player has toured with the Woggles, local denizens of the road, and they routinely crisscross the US in their 1988 Econoline which they adapted for the purpose. It has a high top and they built a wall between the passenger and rear cargo areas. The high top enabled them to put a bunk in the rear, over the cargo area. Everything fits just fine, although they abuse their van a lot more than we would. They do stuff like drive straight from Texas to Seattle. We are not that out of our minds. I think we take showers a lot more often than they do, too, which makes touring a lot more pleasant. :D Drew, I was kidding about the 12V clothes iron, it was just a totally random example off the top of my head. :D Curve, yeah being from L.A. I know all too well how easily stuff gets stolen (and Tedster had me LOL with the "Dead Livestock Removal" idea!) 'Course during many of my past touring years I took my 90 pound German Shepherd/Husky mix on the road. He'd stay in the van whenever we weren't in it and guard the gear. Never had a problem! He was the greatest dog in the whole world, but he passed away 2 years ago at age 12. :( I still miss him. So you mechanical types really don't think the manufacturer makes a difference? I've heard way too many times for example that the Econolines are the best and that all Chrysler products suck. I've never owned a Dodge van so I couldn't say, but I currently own a Jeep which has been very reliable for me. I have owned Ford and Chevy vans in the past and been happy with both. But I wonder why so many people have such strong opinions about this. Lots of great input here guys - keep it coming! --Lee

[where02190]

If you are doing anything more than an occaisional under 250 mile weekend run, rent from a national company. If you run inot problems 2000 miles form home, you are only a phonecall away from a replacement vehicle. Include the cost in your fees.

[rickpowell]

Personally, I have had more success with Ford vs. GMC truck/van vehicles. No experience w/Dodge. YMMV (ha!) Now that you've been more descriptive in your needs, I like the idea of the extended-body full size van. I'd suggest finding a single comfy bench seat (possibly from a junkyard, if not already equipped) to stick behind the front seats for additional riders, and closing off the "equipment" area with a partition solid enough to stop the equipment hurtling forward in case of accident. Guitars ride up front; i'd make a space for them. I'd prefer a "no windows" cargo van (to not make the equipment obvious); otherwise, dark-tint the rear & side windows (most states will allow you to tint all the windows in a van behind the driver/passenger side windows). Carpeting the front area like a 70's van will definitely cut down on the road noise, which is pretty obnoxious in a cargo van. A/C and a kicking sound system would be high on my list. Renting a U-haul or Ryder on a monthly basis might be an option. They have models with rear-seat passenger compartments, etc. (I drove a Ryder so equipped from CA to IL and it was pretty spiffy). I can't imagine you could get one for less than $1200/mo with a possible mileage charge on top of that. I do agree the maintenance-free aspect of the rental companies is pretty attractive if you don't have an auto mechanic type in the band. Best to you in your search. RP

[The Studio Pet-Rock]

This is my $825 piece of crap Club Wagon. 180,000 miles and STILL refuses to die. Despite my intense hatred for vans, this is probably the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned. The only gripe I have is the motor. It's a 460! ( I believe Ford still produces these motors for RVs.) Great motor - very powerful....8 miles per gallon on the highway though. If you get a ford, get one with a 302 or a 351. The 302 might struggle a bit with a fully-loaded trailer, but the trade-off will be tolerable mileage. [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/bc870647/bc/My+Photo+Album/Getaway+Car2.jpg?bcW2DF9ACJI7f29Y[/img]

[strat0124]

The one ton vans have plenty of room but as someone mentioned, gas mileage sucks, even more than the regular sized vans. Four good comfortable seats, AC, and music, are all creature comforts that we love, but mechanical reliability is #1 to me. Having been left on the side of the road in the pre cell phone days with a van full of gear and four tired and pissed off band mates. Mechanical spares, good tires, replacement fluids, belts, are all essential. As far as theft, even if you pulled up in a cement truck with gear hidden inside, someone would figure it out, theives are good at what they do. My friends played Nashville, and were ripped right outside the Bluebird in broad daylight. Get a van Lee...we wanna see you in Va Beach!!!! :)

[sign]

In Europe it's diesel all over the place, even sports cars, absolutely no problem. A modern diesel engine runs like a gasoline engine, starts like it, is as fast as a gasoline engine too. It only consumes less :D You can get diesel in any gasstation and in wintertime it has an additive in order to prevent 'flocking' (is this proper English?) A Mercedes diesel engine runs 400.000/600.000 km's before it needs an overhaul when driven and maintained properly. If you drive a diesel in cold wether, you can add a few liters of gasoline to the diesel to prevent 'flocking' :) In the Netherlands many gasoline cars run on Liquid Petrolium Gas, which is the cleanest way of driving a car. I have a 32 year old Jaguar that runs very good on LPG and it does 200 km/h So Lee, a diesel with a very big tank (300 gallon?) :D

[The Bear Jew]

Hey Lee... My band tours pretty regularly. We have a 1983 Ford Econoline. It's got about 200,000 miles on it now. It's the kind with two gas tanks -- a nice feature because we don't have to stop too often. We've traveled from Maine to Florida 13 times in it and across the midwest from Philly twice. So far (knock wood) we've never had a big problem with it. We built a platform in the back, and we can fit all of our gear underneath this "loft." It cost us about $100 or so for the materials to build this. I don't recommend building this thing any more massively than is totally necessary -- keep it simple and sturdy, but don't overdo it. We have a bench in front of the loft, and we have about 3.5 feet between the bench and the front captain's chairs. We can sleep two guys on the loft, one on the bench and one on the floor in front of the bench. It's VERY cozy, but we can avoid paying for motels this way a lot of the time. We love our van. A word or two about trailers: I don't recommend them. Almost everyone I know who tours with a trailer has a horror story to tell about the trailer becoming unhitched or swinging wildly around during a storm. I've even seen other cars get totaled by trailers whipping around and knocking them off of a road in a storm. Driving with a trailer attached to your van requires a special skill as well. Another problem with trailers is that they make your vehicle larger than most regular-sized cars or vans, so they can be very hard to park in cities. This is really a problem in super-congested towns like Philly, NYC, Boston, Chicago, etc. Try to park one of these monsters in a pay lot and you'll be nailed for HUGE numbers because the trailer takes up too much space -- you end up paying for two cars worth of space. Plus, trailers (regardless of what you paint on them) scream out "SOMETHING LARGE AND GOOD IS IN HERE" to anyone who might be considering a crime. One of our buddies' bands had their trailer stolen right off of their van as they slept inside! Personally, I'd rather sacrifice a little personal comfort so that I know my gear has a better chance of making the next show. Yeah, a van packed with gear can be somewhat less comfortable for traveling, but we are talking about rock n' roll here -- nothing worth having is easy to get, and a little suffering just makes you stronger in the long run.

[DC]

I've just always considered vans to be money pits. I've owned Ford and Dodge and it was just repair after repair on those guys. If you choose a van, be sure and get one with a large motor (I've poped a bunch of straight 6's). Also get a transmission tune up at least once a year because the weight is very hard on this guy. You'll also need to get out your JC Whitney catalog and order some leaf spring stiffeners and helper springs to go over your shocks. This makes a huge difference in your ride. Here is something just to consider. I ended up buying a Toyota box truck. Never had any unexpected expenses again, just routine maintenance. The box is also very secure and as Tedster suggested, paint; 'Caution: Nucleur Waste' on the side for added security. We used to gig pretty much between Indiana and Florida regularly. What ended up happening with us was everyone drove. I know it seems wasteful, but when you're in Florida with days off in between gigs, we could all go our seperate ways. The main reason is everyone could write off the mileage on their income taxes. It's a big chunk. I think you guys should consider something like this. A toyota box and a car on the side. You could write off two sets of mileage and have a car that everyone could fit in to go to dinner, museums etc. together and such. Check the rental places. A lot of them sell off their fleet every two years. I got a 92 Toyota with 10 foot box (and complete service records) in 94 which performed flawlessly for several years and when I sold it, I only lost a couple thou on it. It came out like $500.00 a year rent or so. Toyotas do not lose much value after the first two years. Just do what I did; go to your rich Jewish aunt and borrow the money. She'll give you an interest free loan. Pay her back religiously. Never worry about breaking down again. :cool:

[Tedster]

Anyone happen to have a spare rich Jewish Aunt they'd like to loan out for awhile? :D

[nhcomp45aol.com]

The Ford is most likely to have a transmision problem, The chevy a valvetrain problem or broken steering box. The Dodge 15 pass I use for pulling my race rig is an 80 one ton model rated at 8660 gross it has about 700 lbs of tools and spare parts in it. The trailer is 1800 lbs and the racecar is 3350. With a 250,000 mile 318, this rig will cruise at 65-70 all te way to Reading,Pa. about a 10 hour trip.It uses about a quart of oil each way. When the trailer is removed it gets 17 mpg. Paul.

[Botch.]

I'm not totally recommending what I had, Lee, a '77 Volkswagen bus. In the southeast you'd really like to have A/C! I bought that thing for $2,000 in New Mexico, and still froze a bit on those January 2:00 am returns to Albuquerque (usually 1.5 hour drive). I had to put a new clutch in it once. When I was transferred to North Dakota I decided a real heater would be nice, so I sold the VW... for $2,000! Can't complain about that! :)

[Lee Flier]

Erik, I'd love to see photos of the inside of your van/hear more details about how you built the platform. Sounds pretty much like what we want to do. mdpetrick: love your piece of crap! :D We will probably end up with something similar. But I hear you on the 460 motor - I was looking at this one '94 Club Wagon quite seriously, it seems perfect in many ways but it has a 460 and I juuust don't think I want to deal with that gas mileage! I will think very seriously about diesel, too, you've all made some very good points about that. I've been wanting to experiment with biodiesel anyway (burning waste vegetable oil as fuel) so that would be a good opportunity. I don't think we'll be dealing with subzero temperatures :D , so shouldn't be a problem. And definitely, A/C is a MUST, as is insulation and carpeting in the passenger area. --Lee

[Rim]

Probably not the cheapest choice but I think it'd be cool to get the Volkswagen Eurovan. To me, it's the updated "VW microbus with the shovels and rakes and implements of destruction". I also consider it the update of the historic "hippie van". It's the hippie vibe with the modern comforts and unfortunately, modern price. I don't know, though, it would still be so cool to have one to tool a band around.

[SFOracle]

Modern diesels work fine in cold weather. My parents live in Edmonton Alberta - you want to talk cold - minus 40 in mid winter is common. Their 2 cars? A 1986 Jetta Diesel and a 1997 Dodge diesel (Cummins) pickup. (Oh - my dad also has a 2000 Western Star highway diesel tractor). The '86 Jetta has 400Km on it and it is still running. Why deisel? Much better (up to 50% better) fuel economy, they last longer, and much higher torque for better pulling power. The somewhat greasy diesel exhaust even seems to help prevent rust. Downside? Don't breath the exhaust. Noise.

[Deathtoallwhoopposeme]

I had a 92 Dodge 250 conversion ready Cargo with a 318 in it..Literally drove it from FL to Alaska 2 times, all aroud the US and from CA to AK 3 times..Put 300K on it, but was on the 2nd engine..When you have that many miles on a vehicle you start to have other problems even with a new engine and tranny..Like axle, tie rod, weird chassis things that i don't understand..I had the Universal joint snap while on 95 driving 80, and the drive shaft just dropped off...That was crazy..Finally had to get rid of it....Anyway, I'm looking at Touring Full time in my career coming up and i'm Thinking RV...I like to have a place to sleep, cook, hang, etc and I'll pull my Blazer with it..I think I could fit all the Gear in it if planned properly. For short fairly close regional jaunts, a Van is fine..for a Full time gig, RV BAby!!!!!! The trick is finding the Cash to get one..... :)

[www.prometheus-design.com]

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