Alcoholism: How much is too much?

[phaeton]

First off, i should mention that I know and understand the difference between the 2 common types of alcoholics:

 

1) Chemical Dependent- An imbalance of chemicals in the brain makes them physically addicted to alcohol. Stopping cold turkey means things like violent behaviour, hallucinations, and the like. It's not a flaw of personality or character, and they can't help it. Their only solution is to never drink again. My grandfather fits in this category, though he has been sober for over 30 years now.

 

2) Psychologically Dependent: People that drink for emotional reasons and *could* stop at any moment without any adverse physical affects. This is more the escapist/cry in the beer crowd. Just about everyone knows one of these...

 

Lots of people get that wrong, so I just wanted to make sure y'all knew i didn't.

 

However, where do you draw the line between addiction and addictive personality? It's increasingly often that I find myself looking forward to my next beer. Sometimes I spend a goodly portion of the day at work thinking about the Guinness in the chiller at home.

 

I drink to get a buzz. Specifically. Is this bad?

 

How much is too much? What if i drank on saturdays and sundays, but not during the week? How about if i drank every day after work? Or is it only considered "too much" when you're calling in "sick" from work to drink?

 

Drinking alone or 'socially'? Well, i don't have many friends, aside from y'all. I'd be happy to sit down and throw some back on some nice afternoon with every one of you. But since i can't, i drink mostly by myself.

 

When I get home from work, i'm starving. But instead of eating, i drink beer first. I do this because if i drink beer after eating, i won't get a buzz from 2 or 3.

 

I've been home a total of 15 minutes and i'm on my second 14.9oz of Guinness.

 

Right now, i *usually* don't drink beer every day of the week. Some weeks I only drink on the weekends. But I'll put away a 12 pack of bottles on the weekend if you'll let me. If i drink on the weekdays, i usually stop at 2 or 3.

 

How much is too much? As i mentioned, my grandfather is an alcoholic, of the dependent sort (type 1). One of my aunts (his daughter) drank herself to death about 5 years ago, at the age of 49. No one else in that side of the family (which is Irish, for the record) exhibits any forms of alcoholism. My dad (the German side) is type 2.

 

Now, moderation is the key, but I likes me beer. It is known to me that I have an addictive personality. At what point do i worry?

[offramp]

I don't feel like addressing this in full length fashion--for various reasons--but I will say that Guinness is one of the few beers I can just plow through tons of before I am actually drunk. I don't know if it's the alcohol level in it, or some other factor, but, man...two-fisted and furious.

Not that I'm particularly proud of this 'talent'; to be sure, I'm certain I've drawn concerns from my small group of friends on occasion.

I put away a 12 of Warsteiner Dark between Saturday afternoon and Sunday night. Haven't had anything since.

 

It comes and goes. I did go through a seven-days-a-week period about 5 years ago, for the better part of the summer, mostly due to failed relationship and insecurities about other aspects of life. And boredom.

I snapped myself out of it, and spent that August dry.

[phaeton]

Guinness is the only drink on the planet in which i cannot taste the alcohol. It goes down like water for me. The effects are the same as any other beer, so i have to be careful. I'm halfway into #3 right now. Look at the timestamps of my posts.

[Tedster]

Being an alcoholic, to me, is defined to me by:

 

1) The person's need for the substance, whether physical or psychological. If you "have to have it", you're on the road.

 

2) A state of denial about said person's drinking. If they're drinking enough, and have had people react to their drinking in a negative way (so the drinker will try to hide the fact that they're drinking), they're on the road.

 

Also, there's a difference between someone who drinks daily and a binge drinker. A binge drinker can go for weeks or even months without a drink, but once they start, they can't stop.

 

My wife is a binge drinker. She's an alcoholic, even though she doesn't drink every day. Once she starts, she can't stop, and she turns into the bitch from hell. She tries to hide her drinking, makes extremely poor decisions while drinking...like trying to drive, or this feeling of being "Queen Shit". Once she starts, she usually can't stop until she's all but incapacitated.

 

I would say, if you have any questions, contact your local AA chapter. Sit in on a meeting. You don't have to speak, or confess to being an alcoholic. Listen to what types of behavior these people exhibited while drinking. And if the shoe fits...

 

That said, if you feel you're beginning to have a problem, Phaeton, I commend your stepping forward, bro!

[Angelo Clematide]

i went to a restaurant with a old friend, he is so around 65, and a professional drummer, i'm 51. I was dringking a half a beer in a hour...

 

a) my friend was drinking how much beers in the same time?

 

b) drove him home. Next day his wife called me and said what?

 

c) from the ninth beers on, he went to the pissoir every ?? minutes ?

 

.

[phaeton]

That's the other thing. Once i start, i keep going. I only stop when i get to that stage of "ugh, if i drink any more i'll be sick"....

[TrancedelicBlues]

Originally posted by phaeton:

Or is it only considered "too much" when you're calling in "sick" from work to drink?

Oh, please... is that what we've come to in this culture?

 

It's your life, brother, not your employer's... or your creditors, for that matter...

 

How would you benefit if you stopped or scaled way back?? Never mind the power structure, what's in it for you??

 

 

 

That's the way to look at it

 

 

 

Sound to me like it's what you really want to do in your heart... I say go for it

[blackpig]

I come from a culture where 5 pints of Guinness and a few shots of whiskey is considered a "poor night's drinking". According to E.U. health gurus, 4 beers taken more than twice in a two week period is considered a binge and the binger has a problem. It's a relative thing, I suppose. The main thing to remember is that if you feel you are drinking too much then you probably are. Take a crowd like the French or Italians - they take a glass or two of wine with most meals. Given that there are 6 or so glasses of wine in each bottle the average French guy probably puts away 3 to 4 bottles of wine per week. The fun starts when you drink like an Irishman and gargle your way through your week's allotment in one sitting. As I write this I've just had 4 pints of beer and a shot of whiskey on top of the bottle of wine I shared with Mrs. Blackpig at dinner time.

[Angelo Clematide]

Originally posted by blackpig:

I write this I've just had 4 pints of beer and a shot of whiskey on top of the bottle of wine I shared with Mrs. Blackpig at dinner time.

leave off the beer, and the wine, but love Whiskey!!! Hey, and i'm not irish...

[Angelo Clematide]

.

[KenElevenShadows]

I was going to write something very similar to what Tedster posted! I'd also add to that an interference in one's life. That's admittedly vague, but hopefully you know what I am trying to say.

[Anifa]

Phaeton,

 

Here is a free verse poem that I wrote for the 2002 PRISM Awards program...

 

 

A Means to an End - web page

When the things that once entertained us keep us bound in shackles...

 

When we no longer have control, instead our habits control us...

 

When we seek to numb the pain rather than to face the problems...

 

When aspirations and ambitions turn to desperation...

 

When we reach for a bottle or drug before reaching out to a friend...

 

When we begin to party alone...

 

When everyone else has a problem, yet we fail to recognize our own...

 

When goals turn to obsessions...

 

When we alienate those who love us for no reasons, but instead just because they were in the line of fire...

 

When we begin to feel that the world has turned it's back on us...

 

When we take offense to the offering of a helping hand...

 

When we stop caring...

 

 

 

 

 

When do we say WHEN???

 

 

 

 

 

.... don't let it be your last goodbye, or a last goodbye of a friend

 

 

 

 

There is a song on the web page called One Last Goodbye that I wrote and performed with a friend in Maryland specifically for the program... It's not the greatest in recording, but it was enough to receive recognition. Now that I've got my Sonar 4 SE, and the Yamaha i88x preamp that just came in... I plan to redo all of the vox.

[Billster]

Indications for your consideration:

 

When you seek to keep the amount of drinking a secret.

 

Seeking justification

 

Check this thread in the Guitar Forum if you want some experienced individuals with this topic.

[D. Gauss]

"one's too many and a hundred's not enough." -nick lowe

 

 

-d. gauss

[DC]

Well, I've known people like Ted describes in his Deb and that's just really uncomfortable to say the least. It's such a drag because then I can't drink around them.

 

I've also known people who drank every day with no negativie results, but started drinking so heavily that they basically woke up drunk as hell nearly every day and then it turned into personality disorders.

 

I'd say there are tons of daily drinkers with no problems, but when you go too far you go too far and lets face it, if you weren't drinking to start with you wouldn't have got to that point.

 

phaeton, if you wake up clear headed and have no problems with staying up too late because of the bottle and such, you're probably fine. If anything in your morning or afternoon is messed up because of drink then I'd watch it. If you drink till you're sick or feeling funny when you wake up then you're on a bad road.

 

But a big thumbs up on your choice of Guiness as it's my fav beer by far!

[theblue1]

I'm not going to address your specific situation because, I don't know, I don't really like talking to people specifically about their own habits.

 

But let me say that I drank enthusiastically for a couple of decades pretty much day in, day out, with rare exceptions. Even when I was in the hospital for two months after a nasty motorcycle wreck, I drank some. (My doc, a Viet combat doc during that war, said a beer or two every day or two wouldn't hurt me. Of course, I was loaded on morphine, Demerol and dilautid most of the time, so it didn't take much more to get a nice buzz. Actually, come to think of it, the beers were kind of superfluous.)

 

Anyhow, one thing I ultimately found enormously helpful was that I finally "experimented" with not drinking.

 

I didn't much want to be one of those guys who keeps quitting drinking forever so I decided to quit "for a while." (And, actually, my first experiment was not drinking for 2 months before going on a long-planned party trip to New Orleans... the breather gave me renewed vitality in my drinking, let me tell you! )

 

Previously, I'd assumed that if I ever quit drinking, I'd never sleep again.

 

Ha!

 

The first night I fell asleep at like 10:30 pm... practically late afternoon, to me. If anything, I found my sleeping was far better.

 

I didn't drink for many months and, against all my expectations, it really wasn't a big deal. Yes, I had cravings, but I by and large distracted myself.

 

But that experiment was so 'successful' that I allowed myself another experiment: a single beer after shows (I was playing a lot back then). And that went so well, I started letting myself have a beer with dinner. And that went pretty well so I started letting myself have a beer after dinner. Then two beers. Then unlimited beers after dinner. Then a beer with breakfast. Then two beers with breakfast...

 

In a couple years I was up to an all time day-in-day-out habit of 12 beers a day. Sometimes 11, sometimes 14. But you get the idea.

 

 

Anyhow, pretty soon I was in my early 40s and the drinking was showing as a seemingly permanent red glow across the bridge of my nose and my cheeks, which were getting that ruddy, rough look of the career drinker. I woke up one day and thought, man, my looks are goin'...

 

I remember vividly (in a soggy alcoholic kind of way, mind you) the night I more or less decided that I'd had it.

 

It was 11:25 pm, I was getting ready to watch my second Cheers rerun in a row, getting up off the couch where I'd been sitting drinking for hours watching TV to go get my 12th beer and I thought to myself -- I used to go out and have wild adventures and be a bon vivant, life of the party, "fun drunk"... and now look at me, a big blob sitting on a couch drinking a half case of beer a day. And I thought, 12 beers, just like the big strapping ol' guy at my old factory job who was fabled around the plant for his drinking -- he also drank 12 beers a day -- and who went home from work one night and had a massive aneurism that left him a vegetable...

 

...and I though, yeah... this ain't no fun any more.

 

 

I woke up the next morning, cracked my first Bud of the day, got about halfway through it and thought, screw this, not only am I not going to have my second morning beer... I'm not even gonna finish this one...

 

 

I'm one of the lucky ones, I guess. It took me a while to wipe all the 'alcohol-comfort-zone' associations out of my head (you know, you're driving down the street and you see a billboard for Courvoisier and you think, ah... I can feel the warm burn of the...NO! That's over...) but there really hasn't been much white-knuckling.

 

And, when I imagine being drunk -- even a nice warm buzz -- it doesn't even sound good, anymore. (I think I have dreams where I relive my drinking days... the residual feeling is having been trapped in a big soggy cocoon...)

 

But, I will say, not drinking unmasked some lifelong mood problems. I'd been self-medicating for so long, I'd almost forgotten that the 'reason' I started drinking (again -- after a brief period of binge drinking right around HS graduation) was to 'escape' what had seemed a crushing depression following the breakups of a couple of key relationships (the 70s, everything overlapped) and some of the life disappointments that can overtake certain starry-eyed youngsters in their early 20s.

 

But my only real regret is that much of my conviviality and love of people apparently came out of the bottle... when I quit I became something of a hermit.

 

I'm not a program person -- although I did ask my 'higher power' for help, I'd read enough to know that 'tough guys' can seldom beat themselves or their addictions.

 

But I now strongly suspect that I would have been better off attending meetings -- even though I felt little or no urge to drink -- because, when you drink for 20 years, there's a whole lot of "growing up" you haven't been doing and there's going to be a whole lot of adjustment. I kind of wish now I hadn't fallen prey to the ego-baiting temptation to go it alone -- just because I could.

 

Anyhow, that's pretty much a ramble, but maybe you'll find some part of it helpful.

 

Good luck, whatever you do. And, remember, these things really are a lot easier if you take them one day at a time. Seriously.

 

[EoS]

Phaeton,

 

If you're worried about it, chances are you've got something to worry about. And from your descriptions of how, when, and why you drink it looks to me like you may be well on the way.

 

In other words, if you think you've got a problem and you're continuing to drink (even while you're discussing it) - you've got a problem! Think about it, man.

 

Alcohol is an addictive chemical, and one that alters brain chemistry. The degrees to which it can effect you physically or mentally vary greatly. The effects can be sublte. But be very careful about thinking in terms of your 2 categories - the easiest way to find yourself becoming a 'type 1' is by convincing yourself that you're only a 'type 2'. No one can rationalize shit like an alcoholic.

 

You're thinking about drinking during the day, and drinking to get buzzed. I ain't gonna suger-coat it - that's bad.

 

If you're voicing your concerns because you really think you may need to address a problem, then that's great. If you're just trying to get others to convince you that you're ok, then you've got a major problem.

 

Sorry to be so blunt, but I've been there/done that.

 

I've have been free for 20 years now. If you'd like to get help or discuss it offline, feel free to PM me. I just ask that you wait til you're sober to do so, ok?

 

good luck,

 

Sean G.

[ryst]

Originally posted by blackpig:

I come from a culture where 5 pints of Guinness and a few shots of whiskey is considered a "poor night's drinking". According to E.U. health gurus, 4 beers taken more than twice in a two week period is considered a binge and the binger has a problem. It's a relative thing, I suppose. The main thing to remember is that if you feel you are drinking too much then you probably are. Take a crowd like the French or Italians - they take a glass or two of wine with most meals. Given that there are 6 or so glasses of wine in each bottle the average French guy probably puts away 3 to 4 bottles of wine per week. The fun starts when you drink like an Irishman and gargle your way through your week's allotment in one sitting. As I write this I've just had 4 pints of beer and a shot of whiskey on top of the bottle of wine I shared with Mrs. Blackpig at dinner time.

I was looking for blackpig to chime in! He brought up some good points. Drinking is looked upon differently by culture. In Ireland and in England drinking is more accepted than it is here. Over there, there are pubs at every corner. Over here, there is a shitty restaraunt serving shitty fattening food every other building. For some reason is more accepted in this country to be obese and have an eating problem than to have a so-called drinking problem. An American going to a bar every night after work is an alcoholic but if this same person did it in England he would be considered normal. I don't think drinking everyday is a problem until you let it become a problem. I can drink pretty heavily at times and then at other times I don't want to drink at all. I grew up with an alcoholic and one thing I learned from that was to never drink when I am upset. I only drink when I am having a good time. I refuse to get near any substance if I am upset about something or stressed about something. If you find comfort in alcohol then you might have a problem. But if you just like to drink guiness because you like the way it tastes, I don't think that's a problem.

[pseudonym]

I used to work for a guy that drank scotch for breakfast, and would just drink himself into oblivion everyday, he lived to be 72 and died from lung cancer.

 

I recently knew someone, She would fall-off the wagon and drink a fifth of vodka in a hour, she almost killed herself when she fell down, they took her to the hospital with an alcohol level of 2.0 - something - enough to die from. She was also a very bright and intelligent, hard-working person and always fighting the demons.

 

I can't really drink Guinness, nor can I handle whiskey or one of my favorites Jagermeister, it's just too heavy for my stomach, and it just put's me too far gone but I drink beer on a fairly regular basis and get-up and go to work every day, it's when it starts to mess around with you're life(not being able to do what you have to do)and you're eating habits. If you eat well, exercise, you can drink moderately and not have much-of a problem.

 

Also, I have known of some people that can't handle drinking at all, because they think the more they drink the smarter or more talented or something they get, they should not be driving a car. I'm sure everyone has run into these people in the music business from time-to-time, they are really pathetic when they want to record or perform and are just shit-faced beyound what they imagine themselves to be, delusion is one of our human failures.

[MikeT156]

Simply put, an alcoholic is someone that does not have the power to stop drinking "on demand". It applies to a binge drinker, or a regular drinker. Once you start, you can't stop. You can't control it. People that are powerless to control alcohol shouldn't drink at all.

 

 

Mike T.

[where02190]

Alcohol is a drug, and like any drug, if used to abuse, is only one symptom of a bigger issue the addict is using the drug to escape from.

 

Been there, done that. If you think you might have a problem, put it down for a good long time. If you find this difficult,m there is plenty of good and free help if you want it.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by ryst:

I was looking for blackpig to chime in! He brought up some good points. Drinking is looked upon differently by culture. In Ireland and in England drinking is more accepted than it is here. Over there, there are pubs at every corner.

Yeah, and that's part of the reason it isn't such a problem I think. You can walk down to the pub for a night of drinking, and stumble home afterward. Not so much drunk driving.

 

Over here, there is a shitty restaraunt serving shitty fattening food every other building. For some reason is more accepted in this country to be obese and have an eating problem than to have a so-called drinking problem.

Good point. Whereas obesity isn't as rampant or as acceptable there. I also wonder if these two things are related? Crappy junk food and obesity mean you have major blood sugar imbalances, which would probably increase your susceptibility to alcoholism and the effects of the alcohol on your body.

 

A lot of it's down to individual genetics too of course. Some groups and some individuals are more or less tolerant of alcohol than others. Many Europeans seem to have a high tolerance. Native Americans have almost none. So depending on your ancestral background, genetics, diet, brain chemistry etc. you could have two people drink the same amount and one could be an alcoholic and the other not be.

[phaeton]

I can't say i've ever felt the "oh, woe is me, i need a beer" phenomenon. I like the taste of beer, and I like the buzz from it too, but I'm not using it to dull any other emotions. I've got my ups n downs like everyone else (or maybe more like ryst) but they are completely independent of my consumption of alcohol, and vice versa.

 

There *are* days where I don't want to drink at all. Sometimes when I do my Saturday 6-pack, the following Sunday I don't really want to drink anything but non-alcoholic drinks: water, soda, coffee, etc. I never feel 'hungover', and any sort of 'binge drinking' typically doesn't affect me one way or the other the following day. There are days where i don't want any beer, and I didn't drink the day before.

 

Also in my favour, i have a collection of various styles and types of beer that i just plain don't like. They've been sitting around collecting dust, even during my days of not having any other beer around to drink. At this very point (today) i have consumed 3x14.9oz cans(!) of guinness, and 2x12oz of Stevens Point lager. I have a pretty good buzz going, and I feel good. I have a couple more Steven Points that I *could* drink. I almost would *like* to drink them, but I'm deciding not to, and I won't. (it's getting close to bedtime).

 

I guess to clarify exactly *how much* i drink... Here is a typical week:

 

mon: none

tue: none

wed: none

thur: none

fri: 25oz of beer with dinner

sat: 4x12oz bottles

sun: 4x12oz bottles

 

Here is a 'lush' week:

 

mon: 3x12oz bottles

tue: none

wed: none

thu: 3x12oz bottles

fri: 25oz beer with dinner

sat: 6x12oz beer

sun: 4 or 6x12oz beer (or sometimes none at all)

 

There are probably some people that put away much more than that every week..... There are some weeks where I don't drink anything at all. And on the same token, i feel confident that if i really wanted to, i could stop drinking beer entirely, starting right now, for any length of time up to and including forever.

 

Problem is, i don't want to.

 

I like to think that it's just a matter of "addictive personality"- I've had willpower issues with other stuff, certain foods, coffee, soda, video games, sex, etc... this feels very much the same. I almost feel like it will run its course and I'll be done with it.

 

Am i looking for justification and encouragement to do what I want to do? Sure...That's the desired answer..... Am I looking for someone to point out any warning signs they may see? Sure... All one in the same, really...

 

"if you feel you are drinking too much then you probably are"/"If you're worried about it, then chances are you have something to worry about.."

 

Well, i don't know. Really. I spent probably the last 13 years drinking maybe one or two beers every eight to twelve months. It's only in the last year or so that I really 'got into' drinking. I don't know how much is "excessive". My roommates give me crap about it constantly. My girlfriend knows how much I drink and she tells me i'm fine. I seem to think there are some folks that drink upwards of a gallon or two by the end of the day every day.

 

As far as responsibility, if i know i'm going to have to go somewhere via automobile, i don't drink. Simple as that. If i can walk there (i.e. to the store) then it's bottoms up. I've never had an alcohol-related driving infraction, and that's something i won't even toy with. I won't drink before going to work, and even though i *could* drink while i'm at work, i won't do it.

 

Once again, i guess i'm not sure how much is too much... I'm kinda disturbed by how frequently i've wanted to catch a buzz over the last week. For all i know, it could be 'normal', or at least 'not extraordinary'....

[D. Gauss]

i say just try not to overdo it...

 

http://sidesplitters.catastrophe.net/arch/2004/drunk-Day_after1.jpg

 

-d. gauss

[theblue1]

I agree that cultural context defines a lot of the societal perception of this stuff -- but it's easy to cover even severe problems from your family, your friends -- and especially yourself. Ultimately, the individual has to answer the central questions of this thread himself in an almost entirely personal context.

 

________________

 

With regards to comparative cultural contexts, I used to work with a passel of British guys,so I would never discount that aspect. But I have to say that in the 'white Republican' cultural milieu I grew up in in Orange County, CA, in the 50's and 60's -- it was pretty much expected of you to drink. People who didn't drink weren't trusted. Seriously. During my college years, I barely drank anything, and it was always odd being around adults. Even if you weren't 21, they would always be trying to get you to have a beer or wine.

 

When I finally started drinking at family and other 'adult' social gatherings, it was as though I was somehow signalling I'd joined society (after being a hippie outcast). People just fell over themselves giving me booze.

 

It was such a relief.

 

And, once I got used to getting a steady buzz, I found it so much more effective as a social lubricant than other, more subtle intoxicants that were common in the era.

[force]

One sign that one may have a problem, or at least an issue, with alcohol is when one begins to wonder if one has a problem, or issue, with alcohol... At least that's what I've found to be true.

 

btw, I think I was at that campground party.

[EoS]

Phaeton,

 

Who are you trying to convince of what?

[MikeT156]

Quote by Force:

----------------------------------

btw, I think I was at that campground party.

----------------------------------

 

I think you would have remembered the woman flat out on that table if you were there, or did you have too much to drink?

 

Mike T.

[Bill Roberts]

It is pretty easy. A problem drinker is one in which alcohol causes "any" problem, be it health, attitude, legal or socially inept to carry on lawfully or acceptible as "norm".

 

Red flags go up when an indivigual has had (based on legal guidelines) more than 10 drinks per month.

 

This means someone who drinks one beer a day is considered beyond 'social drinking' with a 30 count per month.

 

I would rather have my whole dose of 10 at once, once per month and be cool..

 

All kidding aside, some people can down a 6 pack every day for decades and be cool as a cucumber and totally responsable whereas others (I have seen) will pee their undies on one.

 

I would think for my frame (I weigh 200+) that I could hit 6 a week and not be considered an "alkie" which is a case/Month.

 

No difference between a shot of 80 proof, 7 oz of wine and a 12 oz beer in alcohol content.

 

If it causes problems with yourself or others, it is too much. Period.

[Angelo Clematide]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

....you could have two people drink the same amount and one could be an alcoholic and the other not be.

experienced that a lot, the rest of the party is already lalling, but i was drinking the double, and have a speech...

 

i'm not sure about the genetics, but my japanese friend can't stop giggling after a few glasses

 

A real problems are the ones, who get aggressive, change personality, and drive a car on alcohol!!!!

 

.