What would you ask a Radio PD/MD?

[Franknputer]

The latest "radio sucks" discussion got me thinking...what do we really think/expect goes on in programming radio today, vs. the view from the other side of the desk?

 

I'm proposing this: post your honest questions here, and I'll try to pass them along to the PD's & MD's at my stations & see what answers I get.

 

We have 4 music stations: CHR, A/C, R&B, & Country. The guys in charge are nice, not just corporate drones (we are an independantly-owned radio group) & I'm pretty sure that they do actually like music. So maybe they have a perspective to offer that is interesting?

[Lee Flier]

I've talked to several PD's here in Atlanta. Basically what they say is that they have little control over what they can play. We all knew that DJ's no longer have any power but most of the time the PD doesn't either... he has to answer to higher-ups who are not even in the same city.

 

All the guys I talked to were nice people, seemed to care about music, wished they had more control. They said that they used to have control of the playlist up until about 10 years ago. One said he was thinking of getting out of radio because he coudln't deal with it anymore, the lack of creativity... it was nothing like when he started.

[Billster]

I think my biggest question is how much of the playlist is determined by the desire to break out soemthing distinctive vs. "keeping up with the Joneses" (as in what the competitors or partially overlapping format stations are doing)

 

I mean, is there any desire to push things forward indepedently, or is it a big feedback loop of everybody seeing what someone else is doing and then imitating?

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by Christopher Robin:

... I'm pretty sure that they do actually like music. ... [/QB]

It's funny that this is probably as good as it gets in commercial radio these days.

 

Ask them if their ad sales are tracking the small rise in national ad sales in Q1:

 

U.S. ad spend rose 2.4% Q1

Advertising spending for Q1 rose 2.4% over the same period last year, due to gains across major media, according to preliminary figures released today by Nielsen Monitor-Plus. Advertising spending increased in almost all reported media, led by Spanish-Language TV, Cable TV, and Magazines. Network Radio and National Newspaper were essentially flat, while Coupon and the top 100 Spot TV markets showed declines. "Taking a closer look at Spot TV's performance for the quarter, the medium was down 3.9% overall; however, the smaller 101-210 DMAs experienced a steady 3.4% growth", said Jeff King, managing director of Nielsen Monitor-Plus.

Ask them if they are reaching their target demographic compared to competing stations.

 

Talk to them about music after hours. I don't know them personally, but I bet they don't think of music much in the course of a day.

[Franknputer]

Originally posted by doug osborne:

Originally posted by Christopher Robin:

... I'm pretty sure that they do actually like music. ...

It's funny that this is probably as good as it gets in commercial radio these days.

Actually, what I said was in response to the idea that they don't.

 

Ask them if their ad sales are tracking the small rise in national ad sales in Q1

I can ask, but what's the point?

 

Ask them if they are reaching their target demographic compared to competing stations.

Considering we have 4 out of the top 5 stations in this market, I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.

Talk to them about music after hours. I don't know them personally, but I bet they don't think of music much in the course of a day.

See, this is the assumption I'm talking about. How would you know?

[Franknputer]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I've talked to several PD's here in Atlanta. Basically what they say is that they have little control over what they can play. We all knew that DJ's no longer have any power but most of the time the PD doesn't either... he has to answer to higher-ups who are not even in the same city.

 

All the guys I talked to were nice people, seemed to care about music, wished they had more control. They said that they used to have control of the playlist up until about 10 years ago. One said he was thinking of getting out of radio because he coudln't deal with it anymore, the lack of creativity... it was nothing like when he started.

See - in our case it's a little different. There is no one in another town to answer to. Everyone, including the owner, is right here in the same building.

[Lee Flier]

Well that's a good thing Chris - I think your situation is pretty unusual these days.

[Franknputer]

The thing is this: the consensus here is that radio sucks, plays little or no good music, is just an outlet for big corps to sell manufactured art - right?

 

Yet - millions of people listen happily every day, all over the country. So: are they just mindless & gullible, or does radio fill a need in their lives that we as musicians (in a way, we are all musical snobs) may be missing?

[Franknputer]

We are unusual, but radio is not yet completely controlled by Big Brother. As such, it seems to me that it deserves more than just out-of-hand dismissal as useless crap. (And believe me, that's a sign of growth in my opinions...)

[Franknputer]

Originally posted by Billster:

I think my biggest question is how much of the playlist is determined by the desire to break out soemthing distinctive vs. "keeping up with the Joneses" (as in what the competitors or partially overlapping format stations are doing)

 

I mean, is there any desire to push things forward indepedently, or is it a big feedback loop of everybody seeing what someone else is doing and then imitating?

THIS is a good question - thanks!

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Christopher Robin:

The thing is this: the consensus here is that radio sucks, plays little or no good music, is just an outlet for big corps to sell manufactured art - right?

 

Yet - millions of people listen happily every day, all over the country. So: are they just mindless & gullible, or does radio fill a need in their lives that we as musicians (in a way, we are all musical snobs) may be missing?

Dunno Chris, first of all radio listenership IS down overall, so not as many people listen as used to. Second, even if all of us musicians conceded your point and said "Yeah, we're all snobs, we don't get what audiences want" what would we really do about it? Change our music for their sake?

[LiveMusic]

Wouldn't it be cool if some rich guy bought a station and decided there would be only one 1-minute commercial per hour. Kinda like The Masters golf tournament in April.

 

I can hardly listen to radio due to how many ads. Same with t.v.

 

It has truly gotten ridiculous.

[Tedster]

You betcha. Radio is dead for the most part...sadly...controlled by moguls claiming to represent the masses of brain dead sheeple.

 

There are a few cool stations...mostly smaller-town operations and college things...

[Billster]

Originally posted by Christopher Robin:

The thing is this: the consensus here is that radio sucks, plays little or no good music, is just an outlet for big corps to sell manufactured art - right?

 

Yet - millions of people listen happily every day, all over the country. So: are they just mindless & gullible, or does radio fill a need in their lives that we as musicians (in a way, we are all musical snobs) may be missing?

Yeah, musicians probably have a lower tolerance for anything perceived as prefabricated or overtly commercial, especially in the U.S.

 

I think most people accept a certain amount of crap with stuff they enjoy hearing. WHY they enjoy hearing of some of that stuff is difficult to understand, but then most people have a hard time understanding why I enjoy certain other things.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

Wouldn't it be cool if some rich guy bought a station and decided there would be only one 1-minute commercial per hour.

Tell you what blew my mind. One of my bandmates bought the DVD's of all the Ed Sullivan shows that the Beatles appeared on. The DVD's have the shows in their entirety - including the commercials.

 

There was a commercial break about every 15 minutes and it was ONE, one minute long commercial. That was it. Since those days the frequency of commercial breaks and the number of ads has gone through the roof. I can't take it either... of course I understand there have to be ads but this is just beyond all reason. When the ads overshadow the content, it's time to turn it off. And that's what I do... I very rarely turn on the radio or network TV cuz it just feels like an assault on the senses.

[not Cereal]

i only listen to two stations here. the DAM, i think a clearchannel bastardization but plays local music sunday nights. and the local farm-school has a really neat station that i hear a lot of stuff i never heard before often.

 

i dont listen to other radio. i no longer consider clearchannel playlists as music, its a product that i dont enjoy.

 

everywhere i go in this country has the same stores, the same stuff in the stores, the same food everywhere. now they have the same music everywhere.

 

where is my diversity i so long for?

 

its all the same everywhere here.

 

when i was a kid, the local radio stations were cool and played great tunes (that are still great today). YES, zepplin, who, kraftwerk, on an on and on.

 

no longer for the most part.

 

OH, AND THE LOCAL FARM SCHOOL STATION HAS NO ADVERTISING. EVER. ALL MUSIC, (most of it great, but they have this rap-thing they do in the afternnon that makes me gag)

[Tedster]

We'll be right back to Musicplayer.com, after these brief messages...

 

http://appserv.pace.edu/emplibrary/pepsi3.jpg

 

http://www.garagedewitte.be/start/Logo%20Nissan.jpg

 

http://www.twentysomething.com/_borders/TideLogo_small.jpg

 

http://www.boognish.org/ripvan/images/musicpage/jjjstudios.jpghttp://www.islandmadness.com/images/corona/ce121.jpg

[not Cereal]

iTide. ha ha ha

[Tedster]

(Authoritative voice):

 

By the way, Ms. Flier, Mr. Anderton, Mr. Quinn, may I see you in my office for a minute?

 

(sound of door closing)

 

I've just received word that our site, Musicplayer.com, is too "hip". We're not appealing to the masses. Therefore, from now on, to boost our ratings, all mention of independent artists is a no-no, and every forum must be related to that which anyone can relate to. Our forums shall be renamed as follows:

 

The Paparazzi Forum (only mentions current celebs, like Britney)

 

The American Idol Forum

 

The Golf Forum

 

The Survivor Forum.

 

The Soap Forum.

 

The Music Forum (only posts mentioning Elton John, Phil Collins, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Britney, J-Lo, 50 Cent, etc. will be allowed).

[Franknputer]

Lee, I'm not suggesting that anyone does anything other than consider the landscape.

 

You make music because it pleases you to do so. Still, you want someone to listen to your music, right? That's why you play shows & have a website, right? You could sit in your basement & play for your own amusement all day, but you do have a desire to get it out there. I'm sure others here do too, and that's fine.

 

One thing I'm suggesting is that completely writing off a medium that does actually provide (in however a minimal way) what you are selling is counter-productive. It's been mentioned that there are small radio stations out there that are different, and that's an important point. There are, and they can still matter if they can afford to keep the doors open - and that means support from their community. Otherwise, there's little to keep them from selling to CC or someone else, and then there will be none.

 

Personally, I would rather that music mean more to people than just background filler for whatever 'thing' is coming down the pipe. So - does that mean I should turn my nose up at ad-driven media? Or is there something that can be done by supporting alternatives in the same medium?

 

The real danger, however, is losing touch with the rest of the people. Listenership may be down, but choices are up. People are listening to more music than ever - yet a lot of it is the same stuff that is on the ad-driven stations, just without the ads.

 

And even so - there are still plenty of people who listen to the radio. Again, why? Are they stupid? Or does it do something for them? And moreso, how can my music fill that need too? Does it have to be along the most-hated channel, or is there another way to work the channel?

 

I hope I'm getting this across. Rather than just a big "radio suX0rs!" bitch-fest, I'd like us to consider with open eyes the medium that has, in fact, given so very much to us all.

[Tedster]

No, people that listen to the radio over and over, same old songs, aren't stupid. Rather, music probably doesn't hold as high a place for them as it does for us. Or, perhaps, it does, just not in the same way. It's something we can't really understand, because, being musicians (and non-musicians with the creative spark), it affects us differently. It's like those who can see color can never appreciate what it's like to be colorblind, because we aren't. And that analogy goes both ways, they can't appreciate what it's like to be us, and we can't appreciate what it's like to be them.

[Franknputer]

So maybe that's the question: What does a radio station mean to its listeners? Or, in the PD's case: how do you tell?

 

(more questions & less cynicism would be nice...)

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Christopher Robin:

One thing I'm suggesting is that completely writing off a medium that does actually provide (in however a minimal way) what you are selling is counter-productive.

But that's just it; they DON'T (any longer) provide what we're selling. Not what I'm selling or much of anybody I respect.

 

It's been mentioned that there are small radio stations out there that are different, and that's an important point. There are, and they can still matter if they can afford to keep the doors open - and that means support from their community. Otherwise, there's little to keep them from selling to CC or someone else, and then there will be none.

Look, the problem is that the business model for radio has become too large. What used to be a big enough listener share to keep a station's doors open no longer is. The smaller stations often sell out not because they aren't doing OK, but for the simple reason that Clear Channel, Infinity, et al dangle enough money in front of independent station owners that they cave in. The big radio networks are owned by public corporations and they have to cater to shareholders; that means they 1) have more money to play with than the indie, and 2) have to make the station pay much more to turn a profit. All of this comes at the expense of diversity, local control, and other stuff generally desirable to a community. It's that simple, and this trend certainly isn't limited to radio.

 

More and more people are turned off and have turned to other alternatives... satellite radio (however long that lasts), Internet radio, iTunes, whatever. There are some independently owned stations who are trying to make a go of it and aren't concerned with generating such huge revenues, and some of them are doing quite well. It's all cyclical and I think the way things are right now will change, but in the meantime yes, I think it's perfectly reasonable to completely ignore mainstream media.

 

Or is there something that can be done by supporting alternatives in the same medium?

Sure, and I do support alternatives where they exist.

 

And even so - there are still plenty of people who listen to the radio. Again, why? Are they stupid? Or does it do something for them?

Well, surely not all of them are smart. But for the most part I think people are just more passive about music. People are more and more squeezed for time and most people have to "multitask." So music just becomes the background for other stuff. Most people don't sit and just listen to an album anymore completely focused, any more than most people sit down and read a book. The Internet and home theater and other stuff is more appealing to the fast paced culture... and both the Internet and movies do have music as a component, but again, only as part of all the "other stuff." Radio is mostly for parties or driving or whatever... people aren't so much stupid as just willing to accept "whatever's on" because it's not necessary or even desirable that "what's on" should be anything but filler noise. If you want something more than that, nowadays you just go to a download service and find what you want.

 

And moreso, how can my music fill that need too? Does it have to be along the most-hated channel, or is there another way to work the channel?

There are other ways to work the channel, but not if things remain as relentlessly profit driven as they are. Note that this doesn't mean I expect radio not to turn a profit; it just means the business model has to shrink. I think it will eventually... meantime I don't see any reason to pay any attention to them. I AM very grateful for what radio has done in the past, but it flat out is nowhere near that way anymore and I'm not going to even pretend it is. Most of the people who made radio great are no longer involved with it or are seriously hamstrung, with a few very notable exceptions many of whom are long established celebrities (Jim Ladd, Steven Van Zandt, Steve Jones et al).

[Franknputer]

Lee: with all due respect, I know this rap quite well. Let me add a couple points:

 

But that's just it; they DON'T (any longer) provide what we're selling. Not what I'm selling or much of anybody I respect.

Music. They do provide music. That is what you're selling. I'm not talking about stylistic differences, just music. They do provide that, to an audience that consumes it. Whether you respect them or not is different.

 

What used to be a big enough listener share to keep a station's doors open no longer is. The smaller stations often sell out not because they aren't doing OK,

Umm...do you see the inherent contradiction in this statement? Actually, the way I hear it is that is IS financially difficult to keep small independant stations going - I know first-hand many of the expenditures involved, and it ain't cheap to run a broadcast facility - and many of them do, in fact, give up because of the difficulty.

 

Someone who just passes their business to a big company because they got offered big $$ is operating from a somewhat greedy position, anyway. A lot of the smaller guys do it (and have done it) because they genuinely enjoy it, and they would be the ones who would hold out as long as possible in spite of the mega-owners.

 

It's all cyclical and I think the way things are right now will change, but in the meantime yes, I think it's perfectly reasonable to completely ignore mainstream media.

OK, and here's the point I was trying to make: I'm saying that, by simply writing off "mainstream media" & adopting the position that radio sucks period, you end up in danger of writing off the medium, as well as the people who do listen to it - and if people who genuinely care about music do that, it will NOT change.

 

More later, gotta feed the brood...

[Franknputer]

couple more quick points to ponder:

 

1) Lee, I gotta ask (and you know I respect you, this is an honest question): What are the alternatives in radio that you support?

 

2) Sure, some people are stupid... but that holds true for musicians too, not just non-musical people. Yet, we are ready to write them off as sheep - is that just condescending?

 

3) Yes, there is more competition for everyone's attention...and there is also more crap-peddling going on in every medium as well. Goes with the territory. Personally, I think MTV has more to do with the root of the demise of music than radio, inasmuch as radio started following MTV's lead. It can be said that it was a chickenshit move, but MTV set the stage IMHO.

 

4) If a radio station responds to its audience...and you elect to not have anything to do with them...then why should they change for you?

[Is there bass in the caR-R]

The people I'd like to talk to is the AE's.... The Account Executives (read "Sales Guys") that are out on the streets trying to sign up new advertisers every day. If advertising is paying the bills, then the advertisers should have something to say about the programming thier dollars are supporting...

 

I'm in sales myself, and I have a hunch that these guys talk to people every day who will not advertise on a radio station that feeds the hand that bites. On the other hand, people who will buy what radio stations are playing these days will buy just about anything.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Christopher Robin:

So maybe that's the question: What does a radio station mean to its listeners? Or, in the PD's case: how do you tell?

 

(more questions & less cynicism would be nice...)

Chris, let me take a stab at answering YOUR question. I have quite a few non-musician friends ...

 

Listeners I know will generally find the five or so presets to program into their car radio, stations which play music in the genre(s) they generally like. They then listen to radio by surfing the presets ... what does it mean to them? A beat to tap their finger on the steering wheel to while dealing with traffic. On more involved trips, the listening mode automatically goes to playing CDs. Even out of the driveway ... so it isn't about just using the CD player to get around waning radio signals upon leaving an area ...

 

And I notice that most of my friends by very little new music. Yes, I'm old by music-purchasing demographic standards: I am no longer in my 20s, and neither are my friends.

 

But the ppl who buy new music are generally those who find it on the Internet, or college radio! And they're usually musicians ... or, non-musicians seem big on buying CDs from artists they see live! I think that's pretty cool ...

 

In terms of "giving people what they want," I'd say the average listener doesn't KNOW what he/she wants; people will listen to whatever is spoon-fed to them, because it's just a diversion while driving, to most. The good news is I see lots of CD stores offering music-listening stations, and I see people using them ... they may be listening to see what Maroon 5's "deep cuts" sound like, but a perusal of the offerings on the listening stations show an eclectic mix to choose from ... I can only be optimistic and hope that people are listening to the variety and building CD collections of substance ...

 

In terms of what to ask program directors, the only things I can think to ask are:

 

- Why can't you program what YOU want? What are the consequences?

 

- If you could program what you want, would it be more eclectic, or more narrow-casted (like just Celtic music or something)?

 

- If you could devise your own program, how would you go about seeing how your target listening audience finds new music (aside from your station)?

 

So there, I ask my questions ... but I'm sure they generally ring horribly naive or at best, merely hypothetical.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Most people don't sit and just listen to an album anymore completely focused,

Hmm, how's this for something to ponder ...

 

What if knowing the music was going to stop in 20 minutes, and you had to get up and flip the disk over, was a factor in "forcing" people to pay more attention to what was playing? Now you can load your entire disc collection into a shuffle-mode CD library, press play, and forget about it for a year.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Christopher Robin:

Music. They do provide music. That is what you're selling. I'm not talking about stylistic differences, just music. They do provide that, to an audience that consumes it. Whether you respect them or not is different.

I dunno, to me that's everything. If I don't respect them and they are highly unlikely to play my music or any music that I would enjoy, they may as well be selling baked beans as music - and they would if they thought they could make more money at it.

 

Umm...do you see the inherent contradiction in this statement? Actually, the way I hear it is that is IS financially difficult to keep small independant stations going - I know first-hand many of the expenditures involved, and it ain't cheap to run a broadcast facility - and many of them do, in fact, give up because of the difficulty.

Sure it is! I can appreciate that. But just because it's difficult doesn't mean it can't be done... it's just a struggle and that struggle makes it very tempting to sell out.

 

Someone who just passes their business to a big company because they got offered big $$ is operating from a somewhat greedy position, anyway. A lot of the smaller guys do it (and have done it) because they genuinely enjoy it, and they would be the ones who would hold out as long as possible in spite of the mega-owners.

Well I don't lump every station owner in the same boat. Some sell out just because they're greedy; others because they're just burned out, and tired of trying to compete against the mega stations with the mega-bucks so they sell to them. The real problem is the business model itself that created the mega-stations.

 

OK, and here's the point I was trying to make: I'm saying that, by simply writing off "mainstream media" & adopting the position that radio sucks period, you end up in danger of writing off the medium, as well as the people who do listen to it - and if people who genuinely care about music do that, it will NOT change.

Well again... what else could I possibly do about it but ignore it, if I think it sucks that bad? It's not like I'm going to listen to it just to keep the medium alive. I have other alternatives and they're going to have to figure out on there own that there's a lot of people they aren't reaching. I think they do know that, and there certainly are enough people in radio who know what's going on and why, and are screaming about it, but if it falls on deaf ears with the bosses who are totally married to the mega-business plan... then what's to be done?

 

Really, I don't know what else to do about radio except to turn it off when I think it sucks. You'd think that would send a message. What else would you propose to do?

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Christopher Robin:

1) Lee, I gotta ask (and you know I respect you, this is an honest question): What are the alternatives in radio that you support?

Well let's see... I listen to Little Steven's Underground Garage for the 2 hours a week that it's on. That's my idea of rock radio nirvana. I have called and written the station that carries the show on numerous occasions and told them they rock for carrying the show. I've tried to listen to that station at other times just to support them, it's the new "variety rock" format but I dunno... I can't listen for all that long.

 

I listen to stations in other cities that broadcast over the Internet if they're cool... Indie 103.1 in L.A. is a good station and I listen to that one for instance, especially Steve Jones' show which is funny as hell.

 

I sometimes listen to jazz and world music on the indie, public and college stations here, when they're on. There are some decent individual shows so I try to support those.

 

That's about it really. As far as the usual corporate mainstream radio dreck... I can't listen in most cases. A few years ago my band did a couple of live appearances on one of the stations that actually did a decent show that featured local bands... but they don't have that show anymore or even the same program director.

 

2) Sure, some people are stupid... but that holds true for musicians too, not just non-musical people. Yet, we are ready to write them off as sheep - is that just condescending?

Well first of all I didn't personally call anybody sheep, and I didn't say there weren't musicians who are stupid. When I said "the audiences can't all be smart" I was basically just pointing out that you can't lump "them" all together. If you can't call them all stupid, you can't call them all smart either. I have no idea whether "they" are stupid or sheep or what "they" want (if they even know) or anything about "their" tastes as a group. I can't even get my head around the idea of trying to generalize about groups of people as large as the ones we're talking about. And like I said... I don't think "they" are stupid so much as more passive than music audiences have been in the past.

 

So I don't have any opinion one way or the other about mainstream radio audiences. What I have a problem with, again, is the relentlessly bottom line driven business model. Again this is certainly true of a whole lot of stuff besides music... we see superior software companies getting driven under by the likes of Microsoft, and cool small businesses of all sorts getting run over by the Wal-Marts of the world. I think it would be serious denial to say there isn't something wrong with this whole approach or that it isn't condescending and uncaring toward its customers, even if individuals within the organization try to care.

 

Personally, I think MTV has more to do with the root of the demise of music than radio, inasmuch as radio started following MTV's lead. It can be said that it was a chickenshit move, but MTV set the stage IMHO.

Oh I totally agree. But I also agree that it WAS a chickenshit move on radio's part. I think the real problems for radio started in the mid 90's when the FCC rules were changed to allow a single company to own more stations. That's exactly when we got really fucked.

 

4) If a radio station responds to its audience...and you elect to not have anything to do with them...then why should they change for you?

I don't expect them to change for me. Like I said, I've pretty much given up on them. If there are enough people like me who turn them off, then maybe they'll change, but barring a complete collapse of the mega-stations or changing the FCC ownership rules back, I don't see how that can happen in any meaningful way. Again... what else am I supposed to do but not have anything to do with them? Other than listen to what little I enjoy that is still left on radio, what could I do that would make a more powerful statement from an individual than just turning it off? I'm not really sure what you're driving at.

 

Then there's the matter of "responding to their audience"... well, where do you draw the line with that? Has everything been reduced to an "on demand" society, a dog chasing its own tail because no one wants to lead, everyone just wants to find out "what the people want?" Where are the visionaries in the business end of things? If audiences know they "want" something then it must be something they've heard before, which basically means no new ideas are possible. And that's pretty much the way radio is now... like that post of Craig's: "Ooh, don't give them anything new, let's stick with what they're familiar with, hits and nothing but hits." How condescending is THAT?

 

We need people on the business end, and in a position to call the shots, who are truly passionate about music and willing to stick their neck out and play stuff they believe in. In the long run, nobody really respects somebody who panders to their every whim.