So how about the Michael Jackson thing?

[Martin Kantola]

Ptuzer wrote: "For *$% sakes I am forty yours old and I DON"T sleep with young boys in my bed. I remember when my girlfriends daughter (who was 8 years old at the time) Climbed into bed with me (my gal had left for work). When I woke up and saw her there ... I freaked out and got her go back to her own bed. That is the correct thing to do with kids."

Listen up, Super-8, because this proves my point exactly! The 8-year old girl had no dirty thoughts in her innocent mind. It's all about how WE feel about it.

 

Some of you would most likely freak out completely if I told you about how people in Finland of all ages and both sexes traditionally go to the sauna together, even with total strangers! If you'd been there, you'd know that there is nothing sexual about it at all. In other countries some people have turned the word "sauna" into something completely different.

 

Sorry Super8, I'm only trying to see the issue from a wider perspective. Is a young boy odd? Is a shower odd? Is an older man odd? Of course not, it's how, when and especially WHY these are combined that makes the diffrence between something normal and perverted.

 

We have a huge responsibilty to give our children the right ideas and references in these matters. That's why I think this discussion is important.

 

Martin

[Angelo Clematide]

Originally posted by Martin Kantola:

how people in Finland of all ages and both sexes traditionally go to the sauna together, even with total strangers!....

 

...In other countries some people have turned the word "sauna" into something completely different.

common Martin,

 

our US american friends here are not so blocked

as we sometimes assume. They just have funny laws,

and a lot of religious fanatics we don't have

anymore, because we kicked them out in the last 400 years.

 

Yes, you are right, we developped the sauna to

a sex club for all ages in Switzerland !!!

 

-

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide:

our US american friends here are not so blocked as we sometimes assume. They just have funny laws,

and a lot of religious fanatics we don't have

anymore, because we kicked them out in the last 400 years.

Michael Jackson is a Johovas Witness and he doesn't have a problem with men sleeping with young boys. So much for your stupid theory.

[Angelo Clematide]

well Steve,

 

it's probably a language thing, i didn't meant

it the way it provoked you answer...

 

what you mean by:

 

"he doesn't have a problem with men sleeping with young boys"

 

or is that a proven reality with jehovas, and

only the justice has a problem with that...

 

-

[Ernest Buckley]

would you feel the same way if it was someone who isn't famous, exhibniting the same behaviour?

Excellent point.

 

I will not be PC here, I think there is something serious wrong with him. The fact that he does not try to act more appropriately in such a situation shows me that there are some screws loose.

Showing up at court in his customs, arriving late, jumping on his car hood to wave to people, etc... just shows how out of reality he really is. I kind of feel bad but if I was a parent of one of the accusers... rather not say.

 

I don`t know the "man" but I would venture to say he is a bit odd even amongst people he knows and trusts.

[cerumen]

Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:

Are you making an insinuation that Q was somehow the cause of MJ's alleged behaviour?

 

That's a pretty cheap shot to make, considering Quincy isn't here to defend himself and you have given nothing insofar as source, documentation or anything whatsoever to back it up.

Sorry Phil.... only reason i mentioned it (as a "supposedly" statement) was because i've heard the same story from 3 different people...true or not... i don't know...

 

It's kinda like what Bruce said in his statement:

"I have been told things that would curl your hair about Michael. I have not seen any of those things. Have you?"

 

No sources (given either), documentation, etc.

It seems to me,

Bruce was commenting on something told to him.

Same with me.

Please tell Bruce that was also a cheap shot as you have referred to me.

 

I think i just happened to have heard one of those stories that Bruce heard. One of those persons (of the 3 i mentioned) heard the same story. He works a lot at Westlake. And he has nothing to do with the original person that I heard the story from (about 4 years prior).

 

Coincidence? Maybe... don't know...

I do believe MJ is wierd though.

 

No hard feelings (i hope) Phil.

I really do appreciate your opinions and advice on this board.

Jorge

[Enrique]

Since MJ is black, I have given evidence that Michael Jackson has received more attention

and unfair treatment by the judge and the media as compared to whites that have been accused and/or convicted of pedophilia.

 

If all this attention and mistreatment from the press is not racially motivated, does anyone have another reason as to why MJ has consistently received so much bad press?

 

Will anyone address the points I made directly?

 

Like, why does no one ever talk about what kind of parents LET a grown man (Michael Jackson) into their home for sleepovers if not for a shakedown.

 

Do the parents have ANY responsibly in this at all and why dont people and the media

talk about this point?

 

Come on, its easy to be neutral and diplomatic.

 

If you really think Im wrong, tell me why.

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Originally posted by Enrique:

Since MJ is black, I have given evidence that Michael Jackson has received more attention

and unfair treatment by the judge and the media as compared to whites that have been accused and/or convicted of pedophilia.

Michael Jackson is one of the biggest celebrities in history, so obviously he is going to get more media attention that a non-celebrity.

 

The Martha Stewart trial was as big (or very close) a media event as the Michael Jackson trial. That is the price of fame.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Enrique:

Like, why does no one ever talk about what kind of parents LET a grown man (Michael Jackson) into their home for sleepovers if not for a shakedown.

 

Do the parents have ANY responsibly in this at all and why dont people and the media

talk about this point?

 

Come on, its easy to be neutral and diplomatic.

 

Huh? Where've you been? *Everyone* keeps talking about how bad the parents look for doing these things and how they come off as crass opportunists/scam artists and how at the very least, how they are insanely poor parents!!! I can hardly turn on the TV without people critizing the parents, talking about how freakish MJ is, how it looks like these people were gunnin' for money from other celebrities, and everything.

 

I'm not even following this circus and I see the coverage you're talking about!!!!

[Murphman]

Originally posted by Enrique:

Since MJ is black, I have given evidence that Michael Jackson has received more attention

and unfair treatment by the judge and the media as compared to whites that have been accused and/or convicted of pedophilia.

 

If all this attention and mistreatment from the press is not racially motivated, does anyone have another reason as to why MJ has consistently received so much bad press?

 

Will anyone address the points I made directly?

Sure. R. Kelly supposedly made a video of him having sex with a minor female, but the case been pushed under the media rug. He's black too. It's not about race. It's about a man, who has a history of bizarre behavior and one of the best selling albums of all time. If you record "Thriller," own a llama, a monkey, an amusement park in your backyard, marry the "King's" daughter, and publicly state that you share your bed with boys, when one of them says you molested them, it's going to make news! MJ is one of the most recognized people in the world, perhaps the most recognized in the entertainment business. He owns the Beatles and Presley's music. He's been the butt of jokes forever (remember Eddie Murphy's "Tito, get me a tissue" line?). Chalk it up to bad luck, bad management, or bad decision making. If you don't want the attention, don't be so bizarre. I'm not saying the media isn't sometimes motivated by race; I just think that in this case, it's about MJ. If Bill Gates was being accused of molestation after an interview where he mentioned sharing a bed with boys, you would see the same coverage.

[Enrique]

Originally posted by Murphman:

Originally posted by Enrique:

Since MJ is black, I have given evidence that Michael Jackson has received more attention

and unfair treatment by the judge and the media as compared to whites that have been accused and/or convicted of pedophilia.

 

If all this attention and mistreatment from the press is not racially motivated, does anyone have another reason as to why MJ has consistently received so much bad press?

 

Will anyone address the points I made directly?

Sure. R. Kelly supposedly made a video of him having sex with a minor female, but the case been pushed under the media rug. He's black too. It's not about race. It's about a man, who has a history of bizarre behavior and one of the best selling albums of all time. If you record "Thriller," own a llama, a monkey, an amusement park in your backyard, marry the "King's" daughter, and publicly state that you share your bed with boys, when one of them says you molested them, it's going to make news! MJ is one of the most recognized people in the world, perhaps the most recognized in the entertainment business. He owns the Beatles and Presley's music. He's been the butt of jokes forever (remember Eddie Murphy's "Tito, get me a tissue" line?). Chalk it up to bad luck, bad management, or bad decision making. If you don't want the attention, don't be so bizarre. I'm not saying the media isn't sometimes motivated by race; I just think that in this case, it's about MJ. If Bill Gates was being accused of molestation after an interview where he mentioned sharing a bed with boys, you would see the same coverage.

Pete Townshend is a celebrity too.

 

"Townshend admitted using his credit card to visit a web site * OFFERING * child porn, but told cops he was just conducting research. The rock star will still spend five years on a U.K. register of sex offenders."

 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/petetownshend1.html

 

Yet, Townshend was not crucified in the media like Michael Jackson has been.

 

R. Kelly and MJ have been crucified in the media while Townshend

receives a slap on the wrist and little coverage in the media.

 

Thats why I concluded this to be a racial thing.

 

Ken, all the coverage I see on the news is Jacko this and Jacko that and nothing about the

the parents bearing any responsibility for this situation.

 

Im talking about shows like Entertainment tonight, the insider and of course the hit

piece from 20/20, a respectable news magazine show.

 

They play up the freak factor.

[Murphman]

Originally posted by Enrique:

Pete Townshend is a celebrity too.

 

"Townshend admitted using his credit card to visit a web site * OFFERING * child porn, but told cops he was just conducting research. The rock star will still spend five years on a U.K. register of sex offenders."

 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/petetownshend1.html

 

Yet, Townshend was not crucified in the media like Michael Jackson has been.

 

R. Kelly and MJ have been crucified in the media while Townshend

receives a slap on the wrist and little coverage in the media.

 

Thats why I concluded this to be a racial thing.

 

They play up the freak factor. [/QB]

I disagree that R. Kelly has been crucified. I don't know that MJ is being crucified as opposed to just being reported on ad nauseum. You stopped hearing about the R. Kelly case. a month or two afterwards (and I'm in Chicago, his hometown, where you might hear about it a little more). The MJ case has been going on for close to a year and a half. You said it best: they play up the freak factor. That's the reason. Not that he's black.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Martin Kantola:

Some of you would most likely freak out completely if I told you about how people in Finland of all ages and both sexes traditionally go to the sauna together, even with total strangers! If you'd been there, you'd know that there is nothing sexual about it at all. In other countries some people have turned the word "sauna" into something completely different.

No, actually, most people around here seem to know that already. And they do that in Japan as well. Nothing shocking there.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Enrique:

Ken, all the coverage I see on the news is Jacko this and Jacko that and nothing about the

the parents bearing any responsibility for this situation.

 

Im talking about shows like Entertainment tonight, the insider and of course the hit

piece from 20/20, a respectable news magazine show.

 

They play up the freak factor. [/QB]

Enrique, those are entertainment news programs. I mean, if you consider that news....

 

But I really don't watch that much TV, but despite that, I hear commentators and debators constantly saying that the parents are irresponsible for letting their kids near anyone who has been suspected of molestation. Truly, I hear this all the time. And honestly, just about everyone here at my work, Democrats and Republicans and others alike, keep commenting on how stupid the parents are.

 

What I'm trying to say is that this is hardly being overlooked at all. It's pretty damn obvious. And I've heard this on the news numerous times. Newsweek has mentioned it in print. I've heard it on TV.

 

But I think the news is starting to angle past this now, and are pointing out that the parents are not so much irresponsible but that that they're scam artists who were purposely trying to get something like this going to get money, so you might not hear as much commenting on their parenting skills anymore.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Jurors should not lose sight of this:

 

- Just because the parents may be scam artists does not mean that MJ is not guilty of molestation.

 

- Just because MJ may be guilty of molestation does not mean that the parents may not be scam artists.

 

It's possible that both are true. It's possible, I suppose, that neither are true.

 

I sure don't know, but I hope that the truth actually surfaces and that if there are any criminals they are locked away.

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by cerumen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:

Are you making an insinuation that Q was somehow the cause of MJ's alleged behaviour?

 

That's a pretty cheap shot to make, considering Quincy isn't here to defend himself and you have given nothing insofar as source, documentation or anything whatsoever to back it up.

Sorry Phil.... only reason i mentioned it (as a "supposedly" statement) was because i've heard the same story from 3 different people...true or not... i don't know...

 

It's kinda like what Bruce said in his statement:

"I have been told things that would curl your hair about Michael. I have not seen any of those things. Have you?"

 

No sources (given either), documentation, etc.

It seems to me,

Bruce was commenting on something told to him.

Same with me.

Please tell Bruce that was also a cheap shot as you have referred to me.

 

I think i just happened to have heard one of those stories that Bruce heard. One of those persons (of the 3 i mentioned) heard the same story. He works a lot at Westlake. And he has nothing to do with the original person that I heard the story from (about 4 years prior).

 

Coincidence? Maybe... don't know...

I do believe MJ is wierd though.

 

No hard feelings (i hope) Phil.

[Enrique]

Jurors should not lose sight of this:

 

Just because Michael Jackson is a freak, that does not mean he is a child molester.

[Bryson]

Originally posted by Enrique:

Jurors should not lose sight of this:

 

Just because Michael Jackson is a freak, that does not mean he is a child molester.

And just because he's a rich talented superstar does not mean that he isn't.

 

His dad should be the one on trial, IMO.

[pseudonym]

Golly, you folks sure have written alot about this, thats cool, but you must wonder about some of the testimony that was incriminating. Why would someone with nothing to gain "perjure" themselves?

 

I haven't been watching much of this either, but it's darn difficult to avoid if you want to catch the news. It's been a distraction from more important "things". I sure shall be pleased when it's all done and gone and he can go back to his millionaire lifestyle whatever he does, I don't really care, I never liked him or his music anyway! Screwing kiddies, girls or boys is bad, everyone knows that???????????

 

I really liked the mixes though!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Bryson:

Originally posted by Enrique:

Jurors should not lose sight of this:

 

Just because Michael Jackson is a freak, that does not mean he is a child molester.

And just because he's a rich talented superstar does not mean that he isn't.

 

His dad should be the one on trial, IMO.

I think all that could be true. And the last one sounds like a good idea...

[pseudonym]

Do you really think his dad should be on trial? Man you are really out-of-touch with reality, after you reach a certain age, you are resposible for your own actions, and Jackson has gone way past that.

 

The only thing that can keep a dude like this going is his money, and that gets good lawyers and such. Just as I shouldn't be blamed for my fathers wrongs, I cannot be blamed for his, it's called civilised rationality(or free will), you are wholly resposible for your conduct, unless it is proved that you've been directly assalted and you are defending your life and thats it.

[Enrique]

Just to add a point.

 

Pete Townshend said he was just doing research.

 

I dont buy that.

 

Who is interested at looking at naked little boys having sex but pedophiles?

 

To my knowledge Jackson has never tried to access child porn online like Mr Townshend

has. Im sure the media would have let us know about that by now.

 

When MJs place was raided (without prior warning) the police didnt find any child pornography, they did find some regular pornography though.

 

Regular pornography meaning a girl and a guy having sex.

 

What does that say to you?

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Enrique:

Regular pornography meaning a girl and a guy having sex.

Now that I have a hard time believing. Have you ever seen Michael Jackson kiss a girl? It's about the most awkward thing I've ever seen him do. He couldn't look more uncomfortable.

[Bryson]

Originally posted by pseudonym:

Do you really think his dad should be on trial? Man you are really out-of-touch with reality.....

 

Thank you!

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Enrique:

Pete Townshend said he was just doing research.

 

I dont buy that.

 

Who is interested at looking at naked little boys having sex but pedophiles?

People who are trying to stop pedophiles.

 

Townshend wrote regularly about the subject for years before the incident and had established a precedent for being an activist about this issue. He had a web site about the child porn industry. No one has ever come forward accusing him of inappropriate behavior with children. There was no pattern as there is with MJ. You really can't compare the two cases in any way.

[Enrique]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Enrique:

Pete Townshend said he was just doing research.

 

I dont buy that.

 

Who is interested at looking at naked little boys having sex but pedophiles?

People who are trying to stop pedophiles.

 

Townshend wrote regularly about the subject for years before the incident and had established a precedent for being an activist about this issue. He had a web site about the child porn industry. No one has ever come forward accusing him of inappropriate behavior with children. There was no pattern as there is with MJ. You really can't compare the two cases in any way.

I dont feel the need to WATCH child porn to KNOW that Im against it.

 

Do you?

 

It seems that the first step to stop child pornography is to ban it, not to support it

with your money.

[cerumen]

the rumours you're referring to are more like secondhand rumors, while Bruce has some firsthand knowledge.

I'm thinking that's where Bruce's comment about "not with a clear conscience" came from!

I hope he doesn't have any firsthand knowledge

 

The danger here is that someone else will see your comment, and then turn around later and say "hey, I've heard MJ got weird after he started working with Q" which perpetuates that rumor, and casts Q in a very negative light.

 

Bruce OTOH, specified that he's HEARD things from people that would curl your hair, but OTOH, he's never seen anything firsthand.

IMO, there's a big difference there.

Well.....Bruce's statement does cast some negativity on MJ....very indirectly.

I'd hate to have first hand knowledge if any of those stories were true

 

Again, sorry if my post came off as overly harsh. Absolutely - no hard feelings. [/QB]

No problema Mr. Phil.....

I was actually hoping to see if anyone else had heard of that stuff because sometimes where there's smoke, there IS fire.

[Bruce Swedien]

cerumen sez---------->I'm thinking that's where Bruce's comment about "not with a clear conscience" came from!

 

I hope he doesn't have any firsthand knowledge

 

Brucie sez---------->I don't have any first-hand knowledge of Michael doing any of the things that he is accused of. But people that I trust implicitly claim that they have seen things. That's why I couldn't come forward in Michael's defense when I was asked.

 

When you are under oath you MUST tell the truth.

 

Bruce Swedien

[Ernest Buckley]

Brucie sez---------->I don't have any first-hand knowledge of Michael doing any of the things that he is accused of. But people that I trust implicitly claim that they have seen things. That's why I couldn't come forward in Michael's defense when I was asked. When you are under oath you MUST tell the truth.

Thats a powerful statement. I`m not an attorney but I wonder if a Forum comment can be held accountable in court?

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Enrique:

I dont feel the need to WATCH child porn to KNOW that Im against it.

 

Do you?

Of course not, but if I were writing a book about it, I would have to. You can't report about something you've never seen. The price of writing a book or being a journalist or researcher is that if you're writing about horrific stuff, you have to be exposed to it. Being a mortician means you have to handle dead bodies a lot and spend a lot of your time thinking about them. But doesn't make you a necrophile.

 

Pedophilia involves a consistent pattern of behavior (apparently it is almost impossible to rehabilitate pedophiles and they never stop doing what they do unless they're locked up). Townshend has never displayed that pattern, he was cleared of charges (was not in possession of any porn), and no one has ever claimed that he even MIGHT have acted inappropriately with a child. End of story.

 

If anything, people are giving MJ MORE consideration than they would a less famous person. Many people seem willing to believe that he is simply a child trapped in a man's body and concede that we don't really know what the deal is. I think the issue of race being a factor in this case is completely bogus - as OJ proved, wealth and fame always trumps race. The fact is that whether or not he is guilty, MJ completely brought the public "persecution" on himself through his own bizarre behavior.

 

In any case... Bruce, your candor here is truly a breath of fresh air. Too many people are too afraid to say what they think!

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

...if I were writing a book about it, I would have to. You can't report about something you've never seen. The price of writing a book or being a journalist or researcher is that if you're writing about horrific stuff, you have to be exposed to it.

As a journalist in a former life, I can vouch for this. You must know what you're talking about to have credibility. That almost sounds too obvious, doesn't it?