Reverb?

[ryst]

Ok. Now it's time for me to understand reverb. I think i know what reverb is and what it does but I still don't know how to use it effectively in music. I read a previous post where Bruce chimed in about his favorite reverb tricks but i cannot find the thread. I don't really know how to add it to either vox, guitar, drums, or sound fx. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to wash my mixes in fake reverb , I just want to understand it better to use it more effectively.

[KenElevenShadows]

It'd be difficult to tell you how to add it to something when we don't know exactyl what you are adding it to...

 

One exercise you may consider trying is to listen closely to real acoustic spaces, whether that's a living room, a cathedral, an underground parking garage, an interesting series of walls, etc., and then try and replicate it with your reverb unit. I think that would really help with ear training as well as an innate understanding of reverb.

[Mudcat]

With regard to reverb, I just try to make all of my mixes sound like "I Feel Fine" by the Beatles.

[KenElevenShadows]

If I am creating a larger reverb space, I like to mess around with the pre-delay on a reverb unit. With vocals especially, you can delay the onset of the reverb sound so that it doesn't "interfere" so much with the direct vocal sound. You can't usually get away with much pre-delay if you are using something like, say, percussion.

 

Another trick is to use two reverbs in series. Sometimes you can increase the realism and complexity of the reverb by doing this. Experiment with different settings (short reverb for the first one, longer one for the second, experiment with the EQ, predelays, etc.) to see what sounds good for your particular application.

 

In my experience, most people who begin using reverb tend to use it too strongly. Be aware of this as you are experimenting with applying reverb.

 

REAL reverb is wonderful. Think room mics, distance mics.....

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Mudcat:

With regard to reverb, I just try to make all of my mixes sound like "I Feel Fine" by the Beatles.

Yeah, or "The Boxer" by Simon and Garfunkel!!!

 

Ten points for anyone who remembers how that reverb was created!!

[Lee Knight]

Elevator shaft! Hal Blaine playing the snare overdub into the shaft.

[Billster]

Ken/Eleven: Two reverbs in series is interesting, I used to try parallel. See also what I said on the "delay" thread about early reflections.

 

I agree that too much reverb is a common problem. I think the longer the mix session goes, the more drastic the effect is. Definitely listen with a clear head the morning after...

[KenElevenShadows]

In parallel is also quite effective. Different, obviously, but quite effective. Good point!

[Lee Knight]

I like how Bruce uses predelay. Instead of thinking of separating the verb from the voice, he's trying not to mask the natural early reflections that were recorded. The gap before the onset of verb is to reveal these reflections. This concept had help me a great deal lately.

[Lee Knight]

How do I cash in my 10 points?

 

BTW, the album that The Boxer comes from (Bridge Over Troubled Water) is a great example of nice reverb.

 

Contrast. A church for the Steel Solo, nice small room distance micing on the acoustics, the previously mentioned elevator shaft , all different kinds of ambience coming together to create a wonderful buffet of verbage...

[Bruce Swedien]

ryst -------->I think that you are subconsiously digging about to find your own true "Sonic Personality".

 

You won't be happy until you do. It is like learning who you really are... How many people do you know that really know who they are???? Not Many!!!!

 

ryst I like your posts. You appear to be honest, sincere and a bright young soul!

 

To have a "Sonic Personality" that is truly your own, you must start your personal sonic development with a knowledge of natural, acoustical sounds.

 

There's far more to it than just adding a little doo-doo reverb to a recording and then thinking, "Wow - that's great!"

 

I've said the following here before, but It's VERY important!

 

To take that line of thought a step further I think I should say that I feel that the best way to develope your ears' 'benchmark' is to hear good acoustical music in a fine acoustical setting. How many of you get out and hear live music on a regular basis! Its very important! Let's talk about acoustical support as it relates to music...

 

All music is concieved to be heard with some sort of acoustical support.

 

This does not neccessarily mean long "Concert-Hall" type reverberation. It can mean very short closely-spaced early reflections and minimal reverb content. Both of those components comprise acoustical support. Once we know what music sounds like in a natural setting with good quality acoustical support, we can then take that "Audio Benchmark" and through our work, give our sonic images our own distinctly personal touch.

 

An engineer, or producers, listening ability does not descend on him in a single flash of inspiration. It is built up by countless, individual listening experiences. So ryst, my audio pal, make a real effort to hear the music and sound with as open a mind as possible. One of our most important abilities as a professional listener is judging balance. So let's consider balance as the first thing to listen for today. The balance of the instruments of the orchestra in classical music, in a classical recording environment, is the sole responsibility of the conductor. In our work, recording music, that responsibility is transferred to us. It doesn't matter whether the orchestra is acoustical instruments or whether the orchestra is represented by a synthesizer. We must be able to judge balance. Over a long period of time, if we have the native ability, we will develope a seemingly uncanny sense of hearing nuances of balance and sound that would pass unnoticed by the inexperienced.

 

There's much more to this audio adventure than just hookiing up a reverb device, or learning how to use some doo-doo plug-ins.

 

Bruce Swedien

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Lee Knight:

Elevator shaft! Hal Blaine playing the snare overdub into the shaft.

Bingo! Ten points! I think - what was the prize? Something like Daniel Lanois is gonna produce your next album, or you get 51% share in Musicplayer....????

[the stranger]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

In my experience, most people who begin using reverb tend to use it too strongly. Be aware of this as you are experimenting with applying reverb.

I find a good way to apply reverb (at least to the over all mix) is to dial in the verb, then lower the level until I can't hear it anymore. And after stepping away for a while and going back to listen again, it is usually the right amount of verb.

 

I'm not usually using reverb to effect the mix, I'm usually using the verb as a glue that

helps everything come together.

[theblue1]

Lots of good advice. I think Bruce and others have hit it on the head that the first place to start is to hear what actual acoustic reverberations sound like with live, unamplified music.

 

 

BTW... I've been in a lot of concert halls -- and I've never heard one that -- filled with people -- had the sound that most reverb patch designers designate as "concert hall" -- which often sounds more like subway tunnel station at 3 a.m...

 

[Ernest Buckley]

Ok. Now it's time for me to understand reverb. I think i know what reverb is and what it does but I still don't know how to use it effectively in music. I read a previous post where Bruce chimed in about his favorite reverb tricks but i cannot find the thread. I don't really know how to add it to either vox, guitar, drums, or sound fx. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to wash my mixes in fake reverb , I just want to understand it better to use it more effectively.

Reverb is subjective. Some don`t use it, some cannot make music without it. You say you want to understand it better, I`m not taking the easy way out here but I think you will understand it best when you start to use it and experiment with it. Isn`t that how most of us learn anything, especially when it comes to something so abstract as music?

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by theblue1:

Lots of good advice. I think Bruce and others have hit it on the head that the first place to start is to hear what actual acoustic reverberations sound like with live, unamplified music.

...and then try and replicate it with your own devices.

 

AND to use REAL reverb when possible. It's amazing how good your room sound can be when micing instruments. Distance mics. Room mics. Yippeee!!!

[Bruce Swedien]

Ken/Eleven Shadows sez--------->...and then try and replicate it with your own devices.

 

AND to use REAL reverb when possible. It's amazing how good your room sound can be when micing instruments. Distance mics. Room mics. Yippeee!!!

 

Brucie sez-------->Distance mics. Room mics...... Where can I get those plug-ins? How much do they cost? You might be on to something....

 

Brucie the Viking!!!!!!

[Bruce Swedien]

I forgot my Graemlins again!

 

[ViLo]

Originally posted by ryst:

Ok. Now it's time for me to understand reverb.

I'm a delay guy.........and I abuse it too...

http://www.89decibeles.com/foro/files/cagadso_de_la_risa_668.gif

 

Seriously

[StoneinaPond]

Originally posted by Bruce Swedien:

....Distance mics. Room mics...... Where can I get those plug-ins? How much do they cost? You might be on to something....

Look

 

HERE

 

And

 

HERE

[where02190]

I'm big on natural room acoustics, often recording room mics. AFA artifical reverbs go, I tehnd ot be pretty light handed. Vocal reverbs, where I want something lush, I tend to serial a delay then a reverb, so I can not only separately control the predelay, but also control the wet/dry delay mix to the reverb. A longish (150-300ms) predelay with the right blend of dry (nondelayed) reverb and some compression onthe send can make for a very beautiful sound if used tastefully (read lightly).

 

For drums I generally send the overheads to a stereo reverb, and often send the room mic(s) as well.

[ryst]

Originally posted by Bruce Swedien:

 

There's much more to this audio adventure than just hookiing up a reverb device, or learning how to use some doo-doo plug-ins.

 

Bruce Swedien

That's exactly what I am trying to understand. I know it's much more than that. I try and listen really hard to things and understand why they sound the way they do, but reverb is kind of elusive to me. Some of the parameters on plug-ins are confusing to me. But I agree that whenever possible, use real reverb. I would like to accomplish the same things that I hear on great records but I haven't yet figured it out. Especially with reverb.

[2_dup13]

Ballads have tons of reverb, even moving reverb. Rap has almost zero reverb.

It really depends on the style.

Anyway my fav trick is to use many reverbs, each one has a different position and color.

[dman]

On vocals pre delay is your friend.

 

I like the dry natural sound but a verb sounds great when used in the right context.

 

Anybody have " Joshoa Judges Ruth" by Lyle Lovett? I love the sound of that record. On some of the vocals it sounds so intimate it sounds like Lyle's gonna walk right out of the speakers.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Bruce Swedien:

Ken/Eleven Shadows sez--------->...and then try and replicate it with your own devices.

 

AND to use REAL reverb when possible. It's amazing how good your room sound can be when micing instruments. Distance mics. Room mics. Yippeee!!!

 

Brucie sez-------->Distance mics. Room mics...... Where can I get those plug-ins? How much do they cost? You might be on to something....

 

Brucie the Viking!!!!!!

My plug-ins sound just like my living room, bedroom, and kitchen.

 

You could go to recording studios run by George Massenburg, Daniel Lanois, Brian Eno, Trevor Horn, Pierre Marchand, Bob Clearmountain, or yes, even Brucie the Viking...but NONE of them are gonna have plug-ins that sound like my living room!!

 

[Bruce Swedien]

Ken/Eleven Shadows sez------->My plug-ins sound just like my living room, bedroom, and kitchen.

 

Brucie sez--------->I was having you on! I hate most plug-ins!!!

 

If the folks who make plug-ins had ears as good as their eyes, plug-ins might be a whole lot better....

 

Brucie the Viking!!!

[Lee Flier]

Yeah I agree Brucie, plugins, especially reverb plugins, mostly suck!

 

Nathan, I think one thing that's important to learn about reverb and delay is comb filtering. It's just like when you're learning how to place multiple mics so that their phase relationship is pleasing. Artificial reverbs, as well as having a sonic character of their own that may or may not be pleasing to the ear, also introduce a comb filter to the source just like natural room reflections. Certain frequencies will be amplified more than they were before while others will seem to disappear. You can end up with what amounts to a phase cancellation if you're not careful. The problem can be amplified if you tracked in a room that already has acoustic problems. Adding reverb will tend to just bring out more of whatever's nasty.

 

Definitely you need to experiment with the predelay and get the timing just right. Just as moving a mic a few inches can make a huge difference in the combined sound of multiple mics, tweaking a verb's predelay by a few milliseconds can have the same effect. Same thing with the length and density of the verb. I also tend to filter out the very high and very low end of digital verbs... anything over about 6K and below about 250Hz. That stuff is rarely any good. In general, EQ'ing the reverb returns is a good idea, it can really help alleviate whatever crap accumulates.

 

Using cheaper converters and mixing in the box or on a digital console seems to have a bigger effect on reverb than anything else. The sound of the reverb tails is always a dead giveaway to me that something was mixed on an analog desk. Tails tend to get swallowed with digital, which makes it tough to get a really nice rich verb. And digital verbs, even the expensive ones, never sound as good as real room or plate reverb, or even some of the better spring reverbs. So a lot of people have simply started shying away from using much verb, and you can't really blame them.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Bruce Swedien:

ryst I like your posts. You appear to be honest, sincere and a bright young soul!

I have met ryst, I'm lucky enough to be living in the same town as he is, and you are so right! He's a really, really great dude. Even cooler in person than online!

[ryst]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Bruce Swedien:

ryst I like your posts. You appear to be honest, sincere and a bright young soul!

I have met ryst, I'm lucky enough to be living in the same town as he is, and you are so right! He's a really, really great dude. Even cooler in person than online!

Really? That's not what you told me when I went to one of your shows. What I remember you saying was:

"You suck, your music sucks, electronic music sucks, the 80's suck, digitial sucks, I Hate you Nathan! Wanna buy my cd??"

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Bruce Swedien:

Ken/Eleven Shadows sez------->My plug-ins sound just like my living room, bedroom, and kitchen.

 

Brucie sez--------->I was having you on! I hate most plug-ins!!!

Ah, but I was having you on! My "plug-ins" ARE my living room, bedroom, and kitchen!!!

 

I have wonderful reverbs in my house already. I have wonderful spaces, so I love to use those.

 

I'm not really that into plug-ins, but the RealVerb doesn't completely suck. I'm really quite sparing with these reverbs, though, because I feel that if I soak my audio in these fake reverbs, it draws attention to what I feel is an inferior part of the audio.

 

I love distance micing, and now that I've now recently started recording digitally, I realize that they're even more important than ever. I started a thread about the extra "need" for distance mics in Phil's Phorum a few months ago. I really do feel that it is more important than ever, as I notice a sort of "flattening" and "lack of depth" with the digital medium, and so I am trying to put some of those wonderful things back in.