If you loved your mix last month.....

[Reitzas]

.....but you hate it today; were you "right" then or are you "right" now?

 

This is kind of a rhetorical question but I would like to hear how others deal with the variance in our perceptions of sound over time.

 

I tend to think I'm "right" now because sometimes I have to separate myself from the pressures involved in completing a mix on time while trying to please myself and others and I realize better what I could have done.

 

On the other hand, have you ever finished a mix wishing you could have done better only to hear it later and actually be quite impressed with the results?

 

I've been doing this long enough to be on both sides of the coin and I manage to reconcile the whole thing by always giving my all to the task at hand. Thanks for letting me spill.

 

Always learning!

 

Dave Reitzas

www.reitzas.com

[Tedster]

Dave, that happens all the time to me. (Bearing in mind I'm a beginner)...but, I think a lot of it is hearing it after a month with "fresh" ears. But, unless it's truly bad, probably no point in remixing. We'll always hear things we could have done better.

[KenElevenShadows]

This happens to me all the time, and it happens even more when I get caught up in the minor details instead of keeping focused on the song and its emotional content as a whole. I just try and make the song come alive and make it sound vibrant and emotional and hope for the best. As Tedster the mildly bad says, unless it's truly bad, probably no point in remixing. I will sometimes do a little extra tweaking if something is bugging me, though, but I really try finish the song and move on.

[Kendrix]

Ah yes.

You can get into an endless loop if you let yourself.

It does seem to go both ways:

I get fixated on some issue when engrossed in the mix and feel its a disaster- only to listen months later and not even notice this problem.

 

OR

 

I feel Ive done a decent job only to come back months later and say " How the hell did I let this one out?"

 

Since Im just a project guy and have no particular deadlines to meet I often let a few days pass before confirming a mix as final.

 

I also notice how you can get familiar with a certain mix , develop an emotional attachment to certain aspects of it and kind of "miss" them when changes are made. Its all to easy to lose sight of the forest for the trees.

 

Its also true that there is no one right answer. Several alternative mixes can be good- just different. This subjectivity is what makes it so hard to choose.

 

Hey - thats what you get the big bucks for - right?

[coyote]

Man... it's like a painter knowing when the painting is finished.

 

Part of the problem I have with all the remastering done for CDs is that the representation of that music at that point in time gets destroyed. Whatever 'flaws' may exist in the oiginal release, it effectively captures a moment.

 

I say: Resist the urge to go back and change stuff done months (or years) ago. Instead, take the ears you have now and apply them to what you're doing NOW. Allow your earlier work to stand as-is, to be an effective representation of that moment in your life.

[Extreme Mixing]

That's the hardest part about mixing. And going back to remix is pretty hard when the record is already out...

 

I guess I'm the same as you, I just try to be really inside the music while I'm doing it, and make choices that won't make me cringe later on. I don't listen to the stuff after I'm done with it unless it comes on the radio or TV "out of the blue". I'm usually pretty happy with what I hear, but there are times...

 

Steve

[Lee Flier]

Well... like you say the ear is funny that way. It seems to have a tendency and willingness to "adapt" to different sounds and fill in any perceived gaps, which can be a problem if you're trying to hear things objectively. So, a lot of times I find the first mix I do is the best, or at least has the best building blocks for the rest of the process. That first blush is perhaps the only time you're going to hear the tracks truly objectively, before your ears start compensating and mis-perceiving things. It's also (unless you were the tracking engineer) the first time you're hearing the song and the performance and reacting to it on an emotional, gut level, the way your listeners will. So... I always find it extremely valuable to save that "first reaction" mix.

 

Ideally, after I do a mix I like to separate myself from it for at least a day, perferably several days and then have another go at it, because then you can come back to it from a fresh perspective. Of course it's not always possible to do that with tight deadlines/budgets... but when possible I like to be able to do that. That way you get a little of the best of both worlds.

 

But of course it also depends on the material... some stuff is easier to find the "focal point" than others, and the more the song has been arranged and thought out ahead of time the easier the mix will be. If they piled on everything including the kitchen sink during tracking it can be tough to get an emotional handle on the track during the first few listens. Yet another reason why I don't like records that are made that way.

[Billster]

I treat the mix as part of the performance, essentially. It captures a moment in time, even if it was constructed slowly. Like songwriting or composing, you have an initial spark, and sometimes it doesn't take much work, other times you need to refine things more. Once the mix is pronounced "done", I let it go to live its own life.

 

On the other side of the coin, for my own music, I was never slavish about duplicating the settings if I had to re-set a mix. I'd pull together the general idea for where things were left off, and move forward from there. Some guys take polaroids and notate settings, etc., but I always figured my perception changed anyway, so why worry about +/- a few mm of fader setting when returning to a mix. Of course now with digital, it's just a computer file, so the settings are there anyway.

[doug osborne]

double post

 

or

 

I thought I'd mix it one more time...

[doug osborne]

Dave,

 

Has the use of a DAW or console automation changed your way of thinking about this, compared to mixing from tape to tape through a non-automated board?

 

This is a fundamental change, and it seems like many mixing engineers haven't learned when to say "uncle".

[Bruce Swedien]

David......

 

I think it's all about staying "Attached" to the music at hand... (That may be a very personal obsevation, and it's not easy to explain.)

 

I do recall a similar situation, that was very interestng and quite dramatic, when we were recordng purely analogue.

 

I would finish a session and put the analogue reels away. Next day we would put those exact same reels on the exact same machines. We would listen carefully and look at each other and say...."Gee, it sounds differrent to me today!" You know why....

 

One day we figured out that, "it WAS different!" Overnight the magnetism on the tape lost a bit of its' residual energy. (Among other things!)

 

Sounds like an argument in favor of the Digital Domain, doesn't it? Hmmmmm.....

 

Bruce Swedien

[Billster]

Bruce, do you think your perception could change between mix sessions?

[bdbklyn]

Thank god it's not just me.......

I went through it many times with what Bruce is describing. I thought that was just my perceptions at the time. I'd look around the room and nobody else seemed to be grimacing like I was. I noticed it worse on 3M 250 than any other tape. One AES show I had a discussion with one of the 3M tape eengineers about tape retentivity over the first 12 hours which was enlightening to say the least....

 

Back to Dave's post, it happens to me all the time and frequently a lot less time than a month has past.

 

Have you ever taken it one step further and tried to recreate your mix to your recollection of it, then put that away for the same amount of time and then listened to both of them. I've done that a few times and found that almost all of the time I prefer the original version.

 

Wierd or what?

 

Bill Dooley

[Bruce Swedien]

Billster asks the musical query----->Bruce, do you think your perception could change between mix sessions?

--------------------

 

Brucie answers------>I don't think my perception (If you mean my perceptive abilities....) change, but after going through this stuff for awhile now, I think my mood and my passion for the music at hand may vary a bit from day to day. But, I've found that my mood and my passion are things that I can deal with.

 

I try to be involved with music and musicians that keep my mood and my passion elevated. Know what I mean?

 

Brucie the Viking!!!!!

[russrags]

Hey Dave,

 

Generally I'll mix a song day 1 (all day), then

take it home and see what needs tweaked, then day 2 usually 3 or 4 more hours and I'll be able to put that baby away. Sometimes I may mix 2 or 3 days on one song. Maybe that's a luxury in a lot of cases, but that's what I'm used too. I do not enjoy tracking and mixing the same day. After taking that kind of approach, I'll usually be satisfied with the mix forever.

 

The hard part is that I'm conditioned to play the same song all day long, so when it's finished I still find myself in that same mode of listening over and over. Once I get past that stage and put it away for about a month .. then when I come back, I can listen to it as a song, without thinking of all the mechanics that went into making it.

 

Also ... while you're at it, make versions, just to cover your butt. In the computer is easy Voc + 1db, Organ - 2 dB, SN +/- dB, Solo + 1dB and so on. Always make a No Ld Vocal Version and INST version. It's easier now than later.

 

It's still amazing to me when making a whole album, that after final assembly of all the songs, how it's like hearing it for the 1st time !!!

 

Man I LOVE making records

 

PS Bruce ... how did you pass me up in your number of posts !@#$%^ Congradulations on # 600 and thanks for sticking around. We LOVE Ya Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

MUCH.

 

Russ

[flyscots]

It's still amazing to me when making a whole album, that after final assembly of all the songs, how it's like hearing it for the 1st time !!!

Oh yeah! I love that feeling!

 

Dave - I can't answer the original question as it depends on the situation. I've gone back to redo a mix a few times but I have also learned to let go. Usually the first mix is the best for me though.

 

Also, yes I have quite often finished a mix thinking I could do better only to listen back later and be very pleased with the outcome.

 

Doug Osborne brings up an excellent point. If we were all using analog(ue) tape and had no automation, we probably would hardly ever even be considering doing the mix again.

[Philip OKeefe]

I used to hear the high end change on analog all the time, and it drove me nuts. Or at least to the point of distraction. Not to start another analog vs. digital debate (both have their strengths and weaknesses IMO ), but I always felt like I had to compensate and print things brighter than what I'd need in the end... it really changes over the course of an album's worth of tracking and overdubs... analog, for all its strengths, has never been perfect either, and I always felt I had to guesstimate on what I put in vs what was going to come back out on playback... especially over time.

 

Dave, I can relate... I don't think there's a single engineer on the planet who hasn't experienced what you're describing. Some people will print everything and then live with 'em for a while before deciding on "the one"... I don't know what the ideal solution is, but a little "distance" from it (ie - listening back after not hearing it for a few days) usually helps for me... and sometimes the opposite is also true... when under a tight deadline, you work your butt off and then hope for the best.

 

IMO, the ability to recall and then endlessly tweak a mix is both a blessing AND a curse.

[theblue1]

Hell... I've got at least 5 or 6 tracks up on my main DL site that shouldn't be there, should be remixed, fixed, or just plain nixed.

 

They're not done until you're dead. That's the way I look at it...

[Philip OKeefe]

Blue, that's where the deadline thing helps... if you have to have it in to the label by a certain date, then the desire to tweak it until you're dead may not go away, but you at least are forced to get it done and call it "finished".

 

And yes Dave, I've done things that I wasn't all that impressed with, and then listened back to them six months later and thought..."hey, that's not too shabby". Of course, the OPPOSITE has also happened... you finish and think you've nailed it, and then listen back later and think "what was I thinking?!?"

 

For those who work alone, I recommend finding a kindred spirit, who has ears you trust, to bounce things off of. IMO, that's one of the good things about the "is your recording / mix any good" type threads here on Musicplayer.

[miroslav]

I take awhile to finish a mix...but then, I don't have any deadlines I need to keep...so I just let the mix happen in it's own good time.

 

But once it's done...it's done.

And with the amount of time I give to a mix...I feel that the way it goes down...with any/all quirks...is they way it's supposed to be.

But I can see where trying to meet a deadline...you could end up with a lot of unfinished ideas still floating in your head.

 

I have come back to a particular song and just tracked/mixed it all from scratch...but hardly ever to just tweak a finished mix some more.

[Billster]

Originally posted by Bruce Swedien:

I try to be involved with music and musicians that keep my mood and my passion elevated. Know what I mean?

 

Brucie the Viking!!!!!

That will definitely help your outlook.

 

Phil - My favorite Ellington quote: "I've got plenty of ideas, give me a deadline."

[Anderton]

What a great question...!!!!

 

With me, a lot depends on whether I'm mixing another artist for commercial release or a CD-in-progress for myself.

 

With other artists, I'm with Dave & Bruce -- I totally focus in on the subject at hand, and when it's done, it's DONE because I'm at the end of the line. I've given it my all and when I listen back to it a year or two later, I never really think I could have given it more, and it is what it is.

 

But with my own stuff, that's different. It's like the way I write. My first drafts aren't that great, so I edit, tighten, delete, etc and get another draft. It's better, but...I catch things I didn't catch the first time, because now there's a different flow. Or maybe the first edits introduced things that need fixing in the second edit.

 

Each time I edit an article, it has fewer and fewer problems. When I can read it and don't see anything I need to change, it's done. Although I'll let it sit for a day or two just to see it once more with "fresh eyes" before signing off.

 

With my music, it's the same way BUT with one big difference. It takes me so long to work on my own tracks because I'm busy doing stuff for other people that a significant amount of time can elapse between starting and ending a personal project. I may be happy with an earlier mix, but it won't sit with the other tracks comfortably. In that case, I'll do a few tweaks, sometimes minor, sometimes major. In this case, I tweak up until the very end.

 

Now, some would say this is the danger of today's editing possibilities -- "you're never done!" I see it as more like a remix situation. I'm remixing some stuff from 1998 right now, and having some distance from the original tunes (which were recorded live) has paid off, at least to my ears. I don't hear the "live" performance part any more, and have made the piece more comfortable sitting in the middle of a bunch of studio stuff.

 

But I gotta say, I just listened to "Forward Motion" the other day (a 1989 release), and honestly, I wouldn't change anything. Given that it took me a year (on and off) to mix it, it's kind of a relief to feel it still works.

[Reitzas]

All great answers so far.

 

It's not something I'm really struggling with, it's just something I think about.

 

I have numerous answers to my question but the more I think about it the more I realize that my work is very client driven. Of course I have my style and my experience that I bring to a mix, but I'm really there to get inside the head of my clients and help them to walk out the door with a mix that makes them smile and have the desire to work with me again.

 

Sometimes I'll mix all day and the client will come in and start steering the mix in a different direction than I had started in and I'm all for that. However, that's probably one of the reasons why I sometimes might not have the jolly's when I hear the mix days or weeks later depending on how far the ship was turned around.

 

Have you ever been so far in a different direction than where your artist was hoping a mix would sound that you end up destroying it? It's like cooking a steak for someone that said they like it done medium. When you serve it up to them they decide that they really wanted it medium rare. There's no amount of tweaking that will get that result other than starting again with a new piece of meat. But you can still serve up a great dish by making a sauce or adding some vegetables or seasoning.

 

(Oh yeah, there's definitely stuff that I loved when I finished mixing it and I love even more each time I hear it.)

 

Late night ramble by,

Dave Reitzas

www.reitzas.com

[sign]

I am very happy with this thread, great questions and great answers.

 

The mixing starts (in my mind) in the tracking stage. I'm always thinking 'how would this sound in the mix'.

 

Like Lee says, the first hour in the mix stage is the most important. You tweak all sounds and set up the balance. I always burn this mix to the harddrive in 32/96.

 

Then the client comes with all his (their) wishes and things get changed and finally he (they) seem to be satisfied.

 

But when you compare it to the mix you've put on the HD that morning, most of the times this mix is more open, more musical, dispite of some minor things that need to be tweaked, but in my opinion nine times out of ten the first mix is the best in a way of music.

 

When I have plenty of time and budget, the mix is almost always very satisfying, even after months/years.

 

The problem is that many clients want to make a CD as good as their favorite CD, but you'd better do it in one day, or better one afternoon.

 

Yesterday evening I had to mix a recording of a six person vocal group and a grand piano. The mix started at 8.00 pm and was finished at 0.15 am.

 

Thirteen songs on CD and we even had half an hour break. This is not what I prefer to do, but it doesn't sound bad at all though.

 

Great thread!

[Anderton]

<>

 

You just explained why it's so much easier for me to mix other's people's music: The options are limited to what works best for them. With my own stuff, there's that "infinite options" issue. Something for me to think about...how can I impose meaningful limitations on myself...

[Reitzas]

..how can I impose meaningful limitations on myself...

Start adding up the hours/days you spend on your own stuff and send yourself an invoice for the time.

 

Seriously, work expands to fit the time allotted.

Without a destination your music is just wandering around looking for a place to stay for the night. I suppose if you focused some of the energy on selecting a home for your tunes it would be easier to pack up the notes quicker.

 

I'd love to hear some of your new stuff and I still regret missing your show at NAMM.

 

Best,

Dave Reitzas

www.reitzas.com

[Mr Darling]

Great thread (thank Phil for pointing this one out)

 

Like all engineers I usually listen to old mixes and grimace to myself (how did I let this one out the door) but with me its a case of I constantly learn, constantly evolve.

However that said I also agree with Lee alot, few times the first rough mix had that energy that I find very hard to recapture in the actual mix. it is just a matter of following your gut felling in the rough mix as opposed to technically and analytically mixing in the 'real' mix...

and sometimes, if not careful one can lose the fact the music is a form of art.

Mixing too much from the brain might take the soul out of a track!!

 

All that said, usually when finishing a mix, listening to it for at least a good week before committing - I find my self pleased with the work and proud of what we achieved.

 

Danny

[Dan South]

(1) If I loved my mix last month, but hate it today, it's probably because the mix presented challenges that I was not prepared to handle. I did the best that I could with the skills that I had at the time, but since then, I have listened to more reference recordings and have new ideas about what might work in this mix.

 

(2) If I HATED my mix last month, but LOVE it today, it's because I was focused on technical issues when I was mixing it and not really appreciating the musicality of the project. Today, I have forgotten those technical issues and can appreciate the beauty that I was overlooking before.

 

(3) If I LOVED my mix LAST NIGHT, but HATE it TODAY, then I suspect that I mixed beyond the point of ear fatigue.

 

(4) I can't even imagine what it must be like to mix with the skills of a Dave Reitzas at one's disposal. On the other hand, it's encouraging to hear that even people at Dave's level experience cognitive dissonance over decisions made on previous projects.

[Chris Carter]

I've found that I do much better if I have limits put on me like a calendar deadline and especially a total hours deadline. It's always flexible and if I need more time, it's always possible to get more time (usually). But on a few rare occasions where I had no limits placed on me, I wouldn't say those were my best mixes... I'd say they are average to below average.

 

I think it's a two-fold thing. For one, I think I work well under pressure; it focuses me. Second, without limits I can tweak to death and really kill the emotion of the mix where I'm no longer making the heart and soul elements shine because I'm getting too nit-picky and it's taking so long I'm losing the love-affair I originally had with the tune. Ya gotta have love....

 

I don't trip off mixes when I hear them a lot later if it's only so-so. So long as I know I did the best I could with my abilities at the time and with what I was working with, there are limits to what can be done. And I have to remind myself that the records I've cut that have done well in terms of airplay or sales were rarely the tunes that I thought were the best mixes (or my best production since the only stuff I mix are records I produced).

 

What I DO hate however, is old mixes that I listen to and I say, "how the f*ck did I do that?!?!" because I'm just blown away by it. I always feel like I should improve record to record and it's frustrating to have a mix lurking in my past that is better than my current mix I'm working on.

[Anderton]

<>

 

Well you see, that's the problem. I have so little time to work on my own stuff it's like an hour here, a couple hours there...I could easily pay my own invoices .

 

In that context, though, it's actually kind of fun. It's like the music is constantly a moving target, and I have the luxury of lots of time between takes to think about how things are gelling.

 

For example, I'm working on a remake of the Animals "We Gotta Get Out of This Place" but as a heavy dance music piece. I got the idea and did a drum track with bass part. I put just that on my Zen and listened to it a few times. There were a few things about the bass line that didn't flow right. Next time I got a chance, I fixed those little spots and the drums and bass just flowed, it was like they had a shot of WD-40.

 

I started doing vocals, and it was great to have a cooking drum and bass line to work with. I should have them wrapped up next time I get to "book my own session."

 

And I do have a deadline, so it will get done...June 20th. Why? Because I'm recording it in Project5 concurrent with reviewing it for Keyboard, and need to have it done for an online example of using P5

 

Of course here I'm talking about tracking, which DOES go pretty fast...I'm a believer in the "capture the moment" thang. It's when I hit mixing that I bog down, because it does not lend itself to that kind of piecemeal approach. With other clients, I block out the time I need, and go for it in one fell swoop, with a reality check the next day or two. With me, it's like get this part of the mix right...ooops, gotta stop. Next time, work on the rhythm guitar...that sort of thing. During those breaks, hell, I've changed so I often feel the need to tweak what I did before.

 

I guess that's why I find this thread so interesting, it focuses on a particular facet of this issue.

 

Cool idea, Dave.