reverse effects

[ryst]

A few questions about reverse effects. First of all with reverse reverb, when applying it digitally, does one type of reverb work better than another? For instance, would a smaller reverb with a shorter decay sound more clear than a large verb? And the same question applies to delays. I assume that making reverse delays woiuld be the same as reverse reverb. Also, what other reverse effects can you recommend? I am not at home right now to experiment but I thought maybe applying an filter automation to a "reversed" track and then reversing the track back to normal would result in some cool sounding stuff...but i have to wait to get home and try it.

[theblue1]

That's pretty much how it's done -- or at least how I've been doing it since '96. I'll slice the section in question, flip it, apply reverb or echo, and then flip it back. Often I'll then apply some spot effects to disguise the transitions.

 

In fact, one of the very first things I did after moving from ADATs back in '96 (where reverse effects are essentially impossible without flying the track out for external processing) was get way into reverse guitars and reverse 'verb effects. Probably too far... but I always loved reverse guitars and other instruments and the first time I heard a reverse 'verb (late 60's or early 70's) I was knocked out.

 

I still have a softspot for reverse effects but I finally had to put a moratorium on reverse guitars in my work.

 

[Phait]

I'm working on another demo in a bit, I've been wanting to do something where a piano chord is sampled, reversed, and right at it's crescendo? (loudness), the chord plays normal. So it's kinda like a reverse-fade-in-strike. Sounds cool in my head at least.

[daddyelmis]

Dumb question -- what is "reversed reverb/delay?" Are we talking about literally reversing the sequence, or is this like ducking a reverb.

 

In that vein -- I've always wondered about Zep's "Whole Lotta Love" and that part where Plants echo voice preceeds the main vocal ("Way down inside . . ."). Is that simply pusing the primary vocal back in the mix and using the delayed vocal as the primary?

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

In the case of Zep, that's bleedthrough from printing levels so hot on analog tape that it leaves its imprint on the tape again as it winds around the reel.

 

Or so I've heard.

 

- Jeff

[theblue1]

I've tried everything I can to drive "Whole Lotta Love" (eeeyannhhhh) out of my head (don't get me wrong, I love a lot of Zep -- and actually saw them in 68) but, if I recall correctly, there's a reverse echo effect in it.

 

In those days the effect was typically achieved by flipping the tape (essentially making it "backwards") and then printing an echo or reverb effect to another track and then flipping the tape back and combining (often through ping ponging, since tracks were still pretty limited back then) the source track and the now backwards reverb/echo tail for that weird backward echo effect.

 

(A similar effect was used for the midget in Twin Peaks, although, as I've understood it, they actually taught him his lines backwards phonetically, put a bunch of echo on that and then 'flipped' it around forwards and had him lip synch to it.)

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by daddyelmis:

Dumb question -- what is "reversed reverb/delay?" Are we talking about literally reversing the sequence, or is this like ducking a reverb.

 

In that vein -- I've always wondered about Zep's "Whole Lotta Love" and that part where Plants echo voice preceeds the main vocal ("Way down inside . . ."). Is that simply pusing the primary vocal back in the mix and using the delayed vocal as the primary?

Literally reversing the sequence. Sometimes people also call it "preverb".

 

I don't know about that Zep thing, either. I don't know how it was done. A few people theorize that it was print-through, but i doubt that very much.

[ryst]

Originally posted by theblue1:

I've tried everything I can to drive "Whole Lotta Love" (eeeyannhhhh) out of my head (don't get me wrong, I love a lot of Zep -- and actually saw them in 68) but, if I recall correctly, there's a reverse echo effect in it.

 

In those days the effect was typically achieved by flipping the tape (essentially making it "backwards") and then printing an echo or reverb effect to another track and then flipping the tape back and combining (often through ping ponging, since tracks were still pretty limited back then) the source track and the now backwards reverb/echo tail for that weird backward echo effect.

 

(A similar effect was used for the midget in Twin Peaks, although, as I've understood it, they actually taught him his lines backwards phonetically, put a bunch of echo on that and then 'flipped' it around forwards and had him lip synch to it.)

I am a huge Twin Peaks fan....What David Lynch wanted was the "reversed" talking in the Black Lodge. What he didn't know is that Michael Anderson (the midget) could speak backwards fluentley. So David asked Michael to teach the rest of the cast to speak backwards. In fact, he filmed a lot of the scenes in the "Black Lodge" with the characters moving backwards. You can tell because the way the characters would move and dance. I don't think there was any lip syncing going on. He filmed them speaking backwards and then reversed everything so it was forwards again but obviously extremely F**ked up.

[aeon]

In terms of setting the time, I just make the RT60 a function of the subdivision of the tempo and then I set the mix density as appropriate.

 

Doing the reverse reverb trick with modern, high-density room simulators with well-defined ER patterns is a weird ear-candy.

 

 

cheers,

aeon

[theblue1]

Hey, thanks, Nathan!

 

I was actually feeling a bit shaky on that -- and I'd forgotten the sequence(s) where multiple people were 'talking backwards,' I just remember Michael Anderson. But what you're saying makes much more sense.

[ryst]

Originally posted by theblue1:

Hey, thanks, Nathan!

 

I was actually feeling a bit shaky on that -- and I'd forgotten the sequence(s) where multiple people were 'talking backwards,' I just remember Michael Anderson. But what you're saying makes much more sense.

Also, Whole Lotta Love, I believe was mixed by Eddie Kramer...Maybe not. But I recall from an interview I read was that in the end when Robert sang "Way down inside", Eddie (or whoever was the engineer) was trying to mute the duplicate (echo) part on the song. It wasn't intentional to have the echo there but no matter what he did...pulling the fader down, muting the track....it still bled through so he decided to just keep it there. I don't thnk he put an effect on it either. It was a mistake. Someone correct me if I am wrong but i remember that interview very well....I think.

[Lee Flier]

Hey Nathan,

 

It really depends on the tune and how big of an effect you're going for. I recently did a reverse reverb on a drum fill in this tune , and I used a long hall verb. Basically I cut out the drum fill, reversed it, applied the verb and printed the result, then turned it around forward again and lined it up with the original drum track. Obviously we were going for a pretty obvious and dramatic effect there, but you could use shorter ones for a little less effect, and that's probably a good idea on faster tunes. The verb or delay length should ideally go along with the tempo of the song somewhat.

[ryst]

ok...I will correct myself. For those who care. I was right about everything except the echo. The track (previous vocal take) was a bleed through that they couldn't get rid of. So they did put some echo on it and kept it.

[Mats Olsson.]

!seluR esreveR

[Prague]

The "Whole lotta..." result was called print-through. It was from the tape being wound on the reel, as da Weasel said.

 

To deal with this to a degree, you'd FF the tapes and store them "tails out". When you reloaded them, you'd rewind to the beginning.

[Keysking]

Originally posted by Phait:

I'm working on another demo in a bit, I've been wanting to do something where a piano chord is sampled, reversed, and right at it's crescendo? (loudness), the chord plays normal. So it's kinda like a reverse-fade-in-strike. Sounds cool in my head at least.

Yeah.. have done this a bit. works quite well.. but you need a good piano sound with smooth sustain. if you are using an electric piano.. Roland or yamaha are no good for this. Kurzweil is great for it. (k2500 up....)

 

i actually have a pad which has a backwards piano smapled through it which i created up for my rig. sounds lovely.

[Phait]

By "electric piano" if you mean something like a Rhodes or whatever, then nah I meant acoustic piano, but on my workstation.