Apple iPod vs. Creative Zen

[Anderton]

I got my wife an iPod from Sweetwater, she got me a Creative Zen from Circuit City. Both 40GB. I've been loading hers with tunes and loading mine, and have some observations...

 

Cost: No contest. After the Circut City rebate, a 40 GB Zen costs half of a 40GB iPod.

Display: iPod is far better.

Operating system: The iPod's touch interface is much better than the Zen's scroll wheel.

Data compression: WMA at 96kbps sounds equivalent to AAC at 128kbps. Far as I'm concerned, you can fit more stuff on the Zen without a sound quality tradeoff. In either case, forget MP3.

Backup: The way you backup with the iPod is to maintain the same library on a hard disk somewhere. If the iPod dies, you can transfer the library over. You CANNOT move files from the iPod out to the hard drive. With the Zen, you can transfer the drive to your PC, or from PC to Zen...whatever. This also lets you defragment: Send the Zen files to PC, erase Zen, copy back from PC to Zen. Very cool. Big advantage to Zen.

Size and weight: iPod, period.

Software: iTunes is cool, but I also like the Zen's Explorer-like drag and drop interface. Draw.

Battery life: Zen is a teeny bit ahead.

Battery replacement: Zen's battery is user-replaceable.

Status symbol: iPod. If Apple doesn't protect their trademark, iPod is going to become like "Kleenex."

 

Bottom line: The iPod is really cool. But the Zen is way underrated, particularly with respect to backup capabilities. Comments?

[fantasticsound]

Interesting comparisons. No clear winner, it would appear. Are specific features more important to you, Craig?

 

For me, the ability to use the Zen as a drive becomes very useful. Does it allow you to copy other file types as some other PC based media players advertise? (I'd love to have one to directly download pictures off my digital camera if I'm on another long trip, far from home.)

 

Originally posted by Anderton:

Status symbol: iPod. If Apple doesn't protect their trademark, iPod is going to become like "Kleenex."

I'm not sure what to make of this comment. "Kleenex" has been protected very well. Its' use is monitored closely by Kimberly-Clark and they have sued over its' unauthorized use. You'll almost always hear, "facial tissue" or "tissue" as the common use word for the product type.

 

From their website:

 

How did KLEENEX® Facial Tissue get its name?

 

To explain how KLEENEX® Facial Tissue got its name, it is necessary to go back to 1920 and the development of our first consumer product, KOTEX® Feminine Napkins. Our KOTEX® trademark was derived from the words "cotton texture" and met our requirements for being short, easy to say, easy to remember and easy to explain. KLEENEX® Tissue was originally designed in 1924 as a cold cream remover; hence, the "Kleen" portion of the word was coined to convey the cleansing purpose. We then added the "ex" from KOTEX® in order to convey what was the beginning of a family of products. In 1930, the name was changed from KLEENEX® Cleansing Tissue to KLEENEX® Facial Tissue.

The trademark KLEENEX® was registered with the U.S. Patent Office.

 

The KLEENEX® trademark identifies KLEENEX® as a brand name which may only be used to designate products manufactured by Kimberly-Clark.

[G. Ratte]

You CANNOT move files from the iPod out to the hard drive.

Sure you can, it's easy as pie. Just gotta get a utility. I like PodWorks, but there are a zillion of 'em.

 

http://ipodlounge.com/

VersionTracker \'ipod\' search

[G. Ratte]

also.. you can defrag & do maintenance on an iPod with the sublime Disk Warrior, same as any other drive.

 

PodLock will also defrag, which is a cool little app. Makes invisible partitions too, for easily backing up your home directory in OS X.

 

There's no need to manually copy everything to another dive, reformat and put it back... that sucks.

[Anderton]

Ah yes, that old "third party apps for Apple stuff that makes it work like you want it to"...COOL! Thanks!! I tried doing this stuff in iTunes, and no go.

[Phait]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

You'll almost always hear, "facial tissue" or "tissue" as the common use word for the product type.

I say Kleenex. Anyone that says facial tissue is anal retentive.

[karmadude]

I have been looking at this same comparison for awhile as I plan to make a purchase soon. If the monetary VALUE vs. TECH features is what the end result seems to initially indicate (first item mentioned, and one of my main concerns) then some of the tech and vanity features go by the wayside, maybe.

 

What I am also looking for are a couple of other things to consider:

 

The use of a Belkin-type AC-powered transmitter to the car radio? I tried to use one of these with a cheapo CD mp3 player without much results. I currently use a battery-powered one and that definitely sucks (batteries, but perfromance is OK) and I don't want rechargeables either for the transmitter.

 

For the chic factor, I think the iPod wins. As far as the cost factor at about 1/2 as Craig points out and the flexibility issues points to the Creative unit.

 

My research has been just online and I have not had any real-world experience with any of these products. I have seen the Flash models gaining in memory capacity, but the concept of the hard drive beats that hands down.

 

Craig, thanks for bringing up the debate. I hope more chime in here with personal experiences.

[Bbach1]

Well, I regret not making a trip to a Best buy for a Zen for my daughter. I spent $125 bucks on a Sandisk mp3/fm player for her. It works fine, but is only 256mb. With all the gifts we got her, I wasn't going to get her a $350 iPod. Had I looked at the Zen, I might have stepped up.

[deanmass]

Craig, you cannot be serious about APPLE being guilty of needing third party stuff to make it work right...Ummmm...MICROSOFT!!!! They are the WORST.

 

The utilities I have used work fine. The iPod can be used as a drive as well, bootable one at that in OS X at least.

 

The ZEN is neat. iPod is still superior.

 

One side note. I HATE creative. Try downloading their sound card drivers. They do not exist on their American sites! I had to pull drivers for my sound blaster live! off the asian site because I lost the CD. I called support, and they told me to use the CD, and if I had lost it, they would sell me another. It still bugs me that they are pretty much the only game in town when it comes to sound cards, and that they ATE 2 of my favorite companies, EMU and Ensoniq.

 

Done ranting...

 

All this being said, if the extra cash is that big of a factor, I'd much rather have a ZEN or a Dell DJ than any of the chip based MP3 toys.

[offramp]

Podworks worked flawlessly for me (past tense, now that my iPod is trashed ). Simply started up and did it, no arguments.

There's a certain fluidity about the iPod; something about the integration with the entire Apple line and the ease of use, ergonomic sensibility that I don't mind paying for. Certainly don't mind contributing a little to innovation, either.

[Geoff Grace]

There are a number of additional iPod features that are also worthy of discussion (calendar, contact info, games, text notes, voice recording, etc.). Apple provides a good overview here:

 

iPod - Music and More

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Anderton]

Yes, another cool thing about iPod is it includes some PDA-type functions.

 

One nice Zen feature I forgot to mention is you can also record/playback standard WAV files. Of course that gobbles up storage, but at least you can record uncompressed data if desired.

 

Another aspect of both machines I forgot to mention is that they can store data as well if you need an external hard drive.

 

The main reasons I went for the Zen were:

 

* WMA compatibility (I can store more stuff with the same perceived sound quality)

* User-replaceable battery

* Cost

 

But I greatly prefer the iPod's display, user interface, and smaller size. I also didn't have a large MP3 library built up. If I'd just wanted to transfer MP3 files, I would probably have gone with the iPod.

 

Also, the iPod has a lot of third party support and accessories. I don't think you'll find any cute little skins for the Zen!

 

After transferring hundreds of songs to both of them, though, I can pretty much say that iTunes makes it tiny bit easier, but I like the way Zen is so drag-and-drop oriented. Also, it seems the USB 2 vs. FireWire is a non-issue -- they both work fine.

[mars_dup1]

Got myself a U2 Special Edition iPod just before Christmas. Very disappointed that it did not include the new album or even one song! Anyways - I've been using it mainly to move project files back and forth. Also, apart from some MP3s that I already had lying around - all my listening stuff is stored as AIFF. I've been drifting in to mastering over the last few years and I need to listen to stuff at the best possible quality.

 

On that note, in the last year I've seen an alarming rise in persons using Windows Media Player to compile tracks for mastering, not realizing that it's been converting all their stuff to WMA

 

I took a look at the Creative Zen after seeing it mentioned in this thread - not the least bit interested. Sorry

[Bejeeber]

Hey this is a seriously worthwhile thread! Head to head comparisons of competing technologies, along with rebuttals'n stuff = invaluable IMO.

 

I've seen an alarming rise in persons using Windows Media Player to compile tracks for mastering, not realizing that it's been converting all their stuff to WMA

Ouchy!

[Super 8]

Well you guys have my attention because I have finally put together some cash to pick one of these babies up.

 

Craig,

you didn't mention which model of the Zen you have. Creative's website has quite a few different models.

 

One question I have; if the Zen is that close to the iPod in functionality and quality, yet half the cost, why would anyone buy an iPod? I mean, unless you just have a couple hundred bucks you don't know what else to do with. But this issue alone would seem like a no-brainer in favor of the Zen. The iPod is hardly a bargain price. In a few years, you'll be getting 3 times the storage, and it'll probably cost about 50 bucks.

 

Offramp,

You mentioned that your iPod is trashed. What happened to it?

 

In terms of software for the iPod, does this all include PC software, or is it basically all Mac stuff?

 

I've been wanting an iPod for quite a while. In fact, I was just thinking about posting a thread about it.

Mainly, I want to strap it on when I walk and excercise, and I'd like to plug into a Aux for use in my car.

 

Now that I'm hearing about the Zen, I'm really wondering if the iPod is worth the extra expense.

[deanmass]

iPod iPod..

 

The user replaceable battery is a huge deal, Craig. I overlooked that.

 

I think the ZEN is totally usable, and the iPod is probably not WORTH more, but it is really a measure of your personal importance of elegance over raw function. I have both a 20 GB iPod and an iPod Mini. Since I use it promarily for listening, the mini gets far more use, and I prefer it to the larger 20 GB unit. I take the mini with me everywhere, and I don't take the slightly larger 20 GB out much. For me, capacity is not that important, since neither will hold my entire library of CD's.

[Anderton]

<>

 

Yeah, they like really long, non-snappy product names. Mine is officially the Nomad Jukebox Zen Xtra (40 GB).

 

<

 

1. It was first. It's what you think of when you think "portable music device."

2. It's smaller. I believe the deal is that Apple owns (licenses?) the patent on a particular hard drive technology that allows it to be so small.

3. Apple has more cachet than Creative by a long shot.

4. Superb industrial design (like almost everything Apple makes), better display, easier user interface.

5. Mac people want to have Apple stuff.

 

<>

 

I've been told that Apple's profit margin on the iPod is pretty astronomical. So it's a no-brainer that a company could come into the fray with off-the-shelf technology that's a bit clunkier, but for less money...that's the Zen.

 

<

 

iTunes is cross-platform. Apple has done a good job of accommodating both platforms, like the 4th generation model my wife has includes USB 2 and FireWire. I first thought the cross-platform thing was going to make the iPod the logical choice for me -- whether I was working on Mac or Windows, I could hook up to the iPod. But once you format it to work with one, it won'twork with the other...and if you reformat, kiss your data goodbye. It's better in that respect than the Zen, which is Windows-only, period. But I was hoping the iPod would be truly cross-platform, not in an EX-OR type of way (Boolean logic people, y'all know what I mean...)

 

<>

 

If you expect to be giving your box a fair amount of shocks, I wouldn't recommend anything hard disk-based. Go for Sony's HD MD (a highly underrated device, if you ask me...not that you did...I almost got that instead of the iPod or Zen), or a memory based MP3/WMA player. 1GB models are now under $200, which isn't cost-effective compared to Zen/iPod, but they're VERY light, easy on batteries, and will put up with just about abuse.

 

<>

 

The expense was indeed a big factor for me; given how much I travel, it's likely the Zen will not die a natural death. If so, I can get another one and the total cost will be what it would have cost to get one iPod. BUT really, one of the biggest factors for me was the WMA capability. I want to fit as much as possible on the hard drive, and WMA just sounds better to my ears. Actually the new Sony ATRAC3 sounds pretty damned good too (it sounds as good as the original ATRAC sounded bad ), but that's a separate discussion.

 

If I HAD to buy an iPod, I'd be fine with that. If I HAD to buy the Zen, I'd be fine with that too.

[Anderton]

...but the bottom line is that right now, I've got my earbuds on, and I'm listening to "Glittering Prize" by Simple Minds...such great music...just a few clicks of the scroll wheel got me there. Which might take me to Ultra Dance 5 next, then to the Specials, then Gwen Stefani's new CD...David Arkenstone...Bach...my own stuff...it's all there. That concept alone is so cool it almost transcends the hardware that implements it!!!!!!

[offramp]

Super8, see my thread about the auspicious start to '05.

[Super 8]

Thanks Craig for that reply.

 

Few more questions for anyone with an opinion:

How do the ear buds sound. Are the stock sets pretty good?

 

Regarding playlists. I like my music randomly selected. Do they let you do that? Is the randomizer pretty good?

I have trouble with 'random' on soft media players (i.e. Winamp)...they always seem to play the same songs.

 

Regarding excersizing; I like to walk. No running involved. I hope that wouldn't be an issue for a hard disk based player. Correct?

 

The iPod is really cool. But the Zen may end up filling the bill for me. I guess I'll have to go check 'em out myself.

 

Originally posted by offramp:

Super8, see my thread about the auspicious start to '05.

Yeah, I read that after I posted. Bummer for ya...

But at least you weren't wearing it at the time it was run over.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Phait:

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

You'll almost always hear, "facial tissue" or "tissue" as the common use word for the product type.

I say Kleenex. Anyone that says facial tissue is anal retentive.

You're not listening, Phait.

 

Craig remarked that if Apple failed to protect their trademark then iPod would become as ubiquitous as "Kleenex" is to tissue. I responded that "Kleenex" has and is protected by their parent company. For commercial use you will never hear "Kleenex" unless they are describing the specific product from Kimberly-Clark. (At least not without a paid license. )

 

This has nothing whatsoever to do with individuals using one or the other. iPod will likely become common use if someone doesn't coin a similarly simple, one word description of these new hardware media players. And I'm quite certain Apple will love it if that happens.

 

Craig - Have you noticed any sound quality difference between the two units playing identical files?

[popstar]

Another selling point for the iPod is use of the iTunes Music Store, which is considered the best of the online music stores. The integration of the iPod with the iTunes Store is done very, very nicely and I think Apple is the only company which has all the pieces in place.

 

Craig, as far as getting non-music computer files onto the iPod, can't you just drop them onto the iPod icon when it appears on the desktop? I haven't tried it, but will soon...

 

Overall, the entire concept of these portable music devices is a total winner. Having your entire music library in your pocket at all times is great. And for those of us wanting to store our mixes on said player, the iPod is great because it accepts AIFF files, MP3, and AAC. When I import my mixes into iPod, I do so as AIFF, when I download off the iTunes Store, they go in as AAC and I also have a big MP3 library. The iPod treats them all the same....you just push play and the iPod figures it all out...

 

ps

[Phait]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

You're not listening, Phait.

 

Craig remarked that if Apple failed to protect their trademark then iPod would become as ubiquitous as "Kleenex" is to tissue. I responded that "Kleenex" has and is protected by their parent company. For commercial use you will never hear "Kleenex" unless they are describing the specific product from Kimberly-Clark. (At least not without a paid license. )

I know this, but I was just remarking as an aside about the usage of these terms when it comes to... kleenex

 

BTW, Kimberly-Clark isn't far from where I live. Yay.

[offramp]

Snot a bad place to be, then, Phait.

 

Super: Most earbuds provided with players are pretty pointless; Apple's standard-issue ones just don't stay in, and are uncomfortable. Better to pop for a new set right out of the box.

[Anderton]

<

How do the ear buds sound. Are the stock sets pretty good?>>

 

Offramp's right. Factor in good ear buds or noise-canceling headphones.

 

<

 

Zen has a "play any track" function. If you skip a track, it does not go to the next higher or lower numbered track, but to another random option. So far I haven't experienced repetition. Some iPod people swear that the iPod random function favors certain songs, but if it truly is a random process, then it's logical that you'll have certain songs that repeat more than others.

 

<

 

They just don't like sudden shocks or jarring. You should be okay.

 

Hey iPod fans -- any recommendations for good external speakers?

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by Anderton:

Hey iPod fans -- any recommendations for good external speakers?

Here ya go:

 

http://www.adam-audio.de/studio/midfield/images/s3a_data_01.jpg

 

Originally posted by Anderton:

<

How do the ear buds sound. Are the stock sets pretty good?>>

 

Offramp's right. Factor in good ear buds or noise-canceling headphones.

Does anyone have good ear buds? If so, please advise.

 

Thanks.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Duddits]

Click for the best iPod earphone replacement

[offramp]

Craig: Bose MediaMate. Stunning sound, really. @ $100/pair.

Or maybe you could review them, score a free pair...

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by Duddits:

Click for the best iPod earphone replacement

Thank you kind cat.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Super 8]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

iPod will likely become common use if someone doesn't coin a similarly simple, one word description of these new hardware media players. And I'm quite certain Apple will love it if that happens.

Eh...whatever. As far as I'm concerned, it'll always be a Walkman...