Stereo Piano Recording

[Tom Williams]

Having recently bought my first acoustic piano (5' 2" YC), I've had several relatives and friends ask me to record a bit with it.  Budget ain't huge.

 

A few years ago folks here directed me to the Roswell Mini-K47, which I love.  I plan to use it for realtime vocal while I record the piano in stereo.

 

A buddy who records for a living recommends a pair of Aston Origins, not because there's anything wrong with the Mini-K, but because "If everything emphasizes the same response hump, that will get annoying."  Makes sense to me.   Then, just to confuse me, he recommended a couple of pencil mics.  The Interwebs are full of advice from pencils to lolli's to omnis to figure-8s.  (probably eliminating the latter, as my music room is most likely too small for a Blumlein approach to be meaningful)

 

Do any of my fellow amateurs / cheapskates (or even pro cheapskates) have any passionate opinions or better yet anecdotes relating to this? 

[Dave Bryce]

Speaking as the Royer guy, I probably need to stay out of this topic.  

 

FWIW, I prefer one mic in the piano and one outside the piano to using two mics in the piano. I also lean towards not using matched pairs when I do that.

 

dB

 

 

[Tom Williams]

Thanks Dave; yeah, Royer looks to be above my hobbyist budget. 

 

That said, your advice has never been anything but stellar.

 

Cheers!

[Anderton]

17 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

Speaking as the Royer guy, I probably need to stay out of this topic.

 

I think it's the other way around - you got expertise, dude!

 

The one in/one out approach works for me. I did that when miking Kathleen McIntosh's harpsichord for her Bach and Antonio Soler albums, and used condenser mics. The "out" mic wasn't a room mic, though, it was relatively close to the harpsichord. Harpsichord has some unique miking issues that aren't as much of an issue with piano. 

 

Much of getting a good piano sound depends on the room. Some basic acoustic treatment will help tremendously, and doesn't cost much. Also, don't be shy about experimenting with mic placement. That's hugely important.

 

The reasons there are so many recommendations about how to mic a piano is because they all work, to one degree or another. The interaction between piano, room, and mics is unique. So, it's not surprising that one setup would sound great in one context, but a completely different setup would sound wonderful in a different context.

 

 

[KenElevenShadows]

2 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

 

The reasons there are so many recommendations about how to mic a piano is because they all work, to one degree or another. The interaction between piano, room, and mics is unique. So, it's not surprising that one setup would sound great in one context, but a completely different setup would sound wonderful in a different context.

 

 

 

Exactly. There are so many ways to record a piano. I've heard of really complex setups as well as X-Y directly over the strings (or the latter with a room microphone). 

 

Many variables between what kind of piano as well. And there's many variables between what kind of sound you want.

 

For instance, the last time I recorded a grand piano was in the Cal Arts recording studio. We wanted an ambient sound, so I used two 414s, both 20 feet from the hammers, and 20 feet from each other. Sounded great. But do most people want this sound? Well, who knows.

 

You can hear one of the recordings of the piano here. You'll know when it comes in, which is periodically.

 

 

[Dave Bryce]

9 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

I think it's the other way around - you got expertise, dude!

 

Fair enough. 😎
 

I've been using ribbon mics in my piano for years, long before I came to Royer. Here's why: besides the more natural sound of the ribbon element as opposed to a condenser, a ribbon is basically two mics in one.  I put it about 8" off the hammers - just above them, hieight-wise -  with the front face angled down towards them, and the back side (remember, ribbons are Figure-8 polar pattern) angled up towards the lid, which I usually put at 1/4 stick.  Kinda like having two matched mics in there, back to back. 

 

First, I had an early Cloud mic, then I moved to the AEA R-84.  Now - yes - I use Royers. My piano is the main thing I used to listen to/learn about most of the models because of its full range and unreal dynamics....plus, I know my (K. Kawai) piano and the room it's in really well.

 

dB

[Anderton]

Ribbons would have been great for the harpsichord, but at the time, neither the studio nor I were that much into The Way of the Ribbon. 

[Tom Williams]

Postscript: In early August, a Famous Camera Store offered a matched stereo pair of Aston Spirit microphones for a tad over the price of two Origins.  (No other US store was offering this package at any price... weird.) The kit also includes two shock mounts and a stereo bar.  To the chagrin of my wife I ordered the set -- good thing too, as the price went up about 40% a week later.  The Spirit mics are a superset of the Origin, notably in that they offer switchable cardioid, omni, and figure-8 polar patterns vs the Origin's cardioid-only mode.

 

I experimented with a truckload of mic placements, mostly in cardioid mode, and about 75% of those sounded decent enough for my amateur purposes.   When I mentioned it to a friend who has a recording studio, he said "That Figure-8 is great for Blumlein,"  to which I said nope - my little music room's acoustics ain't that hot, they'll add nothing to it.  So he steered me to Mid/Side, which I had not heard of.

 

Wow!  Once I got the hang of it, the customizable stereo image of m/s was perfect for my needs.

 

Fun Fact: it appears that Mr. Blumlein invented the Mid/Side technique as well.

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, Tom Williams said:

I experimented with a truckload of mic placements, mostly in cardioid mode, and about 75% of those sounded decent enough for my amateur purposes.   When I mentioned it to a friend who has a recording studio, he said "That Figure-8 is great for Blumlein,"  to which I said nope - my little music room's acoustics ain't that hot, they'll add nothing to it.  So he steered me to Mid/Side, which I had not heard of.

 

Come to think of it, Chapter 5 in Mic'ing for Musicians covers all the main stereo miking techniques. I think you might find it very helpful. Go to the link (which is within this site, no worries about ending up someplace weird), and you can see the contents. 

 

[The Real MC]

If the piano is in a good sounding room, an omni mic might sound good.

[Philbo King]

If the piano is the centerpiece of the recording, a stereo (or stereo plus spot mics) is reasonable.  If the room acoustics are suitable, perhaps a room mic too.

If it is one instrument in a multitrack ensemble, mono is fine.

[Dave Bryce]

On 9/2/2024 at 8:04 PM, Tom Williams said:

Fun Fact: it appears that Mr. Blumlein invented the Mid/Side technique as well.

 

Makes sense. I believe pointing one face/lobe of a Blumlein stereo mic array (coincident crossed Figure-8 pattern) directly at a single point source is basically Mid/Side micing technique. To get a stereo effect from a Blumlein array, you’d point two of the four faces/lobes 45 degrees on either side (to the left and right, respectively) of the source.

 

dB