Is it time for a different board? My synth dilemma:

[kaptainkeys]

7 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Factory presets and multis are templates to showcase the potential of an instrument.

 

The blank slots are for users to create presets and multis based on their own needs. 😎

I completely get that, it just perplexes me that Kurzweil don't put multis in there to wow a customer in the store like every other manufacturer does.

[ProfD]

15 minutes ago, kaptainkeys said:

I completely get that, it just perplexes me that Kurzweil don't put multis in there to wow a customer in the store like every other manufacturer does.

Most KB manufacturers do offer sounds that *wow* a customer in the store.

 

KB sounds baked in effects and other programming tricks and played through a nice monitoring system, the KB sounds fantastic.

 

Once customers get that same KB home, oftentimes, that wow factor doesn't last beyond those presets. Catch 22. 

 

To Kurzweil credit, they have always relied on top notch sampling and programming and presented their KBs rather plainly which gives musicians a real-world perspective of the instrument. 😎

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

I completely get that, it just perplexes me that Kurzweil don't put multis in there to wow a customer in the store like every other manufacturer does.

In the store, I don't know how many customers get past the first 50 multis (or other board's equivalents) anyway. I mean, by then, you've probably either already been wowed, or have decided that this board doesn't wow you enough to keep going. 😉

 

Personally, I've always found factory multis/setups/combis/whatever a board calls them to be pretty useless. They are basically just split/layered combinations of other sounds. The odds are almost nil that I'll actually use one for anything. I guess maybe you can unexpectedly find one inspiring to create a composition with. But for the most part, I find them gimmicky, or not relevant to my music, or just plain pointless. I mean, I've never heard a combination of sounds where I thought, "wow, I would never have thought of splitting/layering sound X with sound Y." Maybe I'm missing the point...?

 

This is also what surprises me about people who complain that they can't save some multi/combi without erasing an existing factory one. To me, they're all erasable. 😉

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

This is also what surprises me about people who complain that they can't save some multi/combi without erasing an existing factory one. To me, they're all erasable. 😉

Right. 😁

 

Nowadays, those useless presets, multis, combos, etc., can be restored if by chance there was something special about them.😎

[Dan32]

On 6/20/2024 at 4:08 PM, ProfD said:

IMO, it makes zero sense to buy, own and play a KB that isn't fun and inspiring to play. 

 

 

I'm also looking for a new synth.

I'd like to replace my upper tier Korg Triton Extreme 61 that I've used for twenty years.

It's a bit heavy and doesn't keep user samples in memory so they need to be reloaded on power up.

Have always opted for 'no compromise' flagship keyboards, latest being a Nord Stage 2 76. 

Fun and inspiring it certainly is. Same with the Triton Extreme.

 

I'm considering trading up my redundant Roland XP80 for a Fantom 06 as a top tier board. 

Easier schlep, considering I have the heavy Nord too plus band PA to take to gigs.

My local store does trade ins so I hope to do a part exchange. 

I briefly tried a Roland FA06 next to a Yamaha MOXF6 several years ago. Instantly preferred the MOXF keys. The Roland ones were just too small for live playing although I do have an A500 Pro for DAW use and that's ok.

 

So it's a bit of a synth dilemma.

Due to the much higher cost now of flagship workstations and their weight, I have to compromise key action and the aforementioned FTEC. 

Have done lots of comparing between the Fantom 06, MODX6 and also the Korg Kross 2.

While the Kross 2 would seem a logical, low weight upgrade to the Triton, the keys are quite cheap feeling.

For all round build/sound quality, key action, ease of use and useful live playing functions, I think the Fantom 06 wins.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Dan32 said:

I briefly tried a Roland FA06 next to a Yamaha MOXF6 several years ago. Instantly preferred the MOXF keys.

...

Have done lots of comparing between the Fantom 06, MODX6 and also the Korg Kross 2.

While the Kross 2 would seem a logical, low weight upgrade to the Triton, the keys are quite cheap feeling.

For all round build/sound quality, key action, ease of use and useful live playing functions, I think the Fantom 06 wins.

 

FWIW, the FA-07 keys were better than the FA-06, and at least IMO, also better than those of the Fantom-06. (I'd still prefer the Fantom-0 overall, though if I had to use it as a "bottom/piano" board as well, that would sway me the other direction.)

[ProfD]

5 hours ago, Dan32 said:

I'm considering trading up my redundant Roland XP80 for a Fantom 06 as a top tier board. 

 

I briefly tried a Roland FA06 next to a Yamaha MOXF6 several years ago. Instantly preferred the MOXF keys.

 

Due to the much higher cost now of flagship workstations and their weight, I have to compromise key action and the aforementioned FTEC. 

 

For all round build/sound quality, key action, ease of use and useful live playing functions, I think the Fantom 06 wins.

First, when it comes to key action, they don't make them like they used too. 

 

Back in the day, the cheapest pro-level KB in the store felt decent to play.  Times have changed in that regard. 

 

Old man grumbling aside, in your case, the Fantom-06 would be the best compromise considering your familiarity with the Roland sound.😎

[Dan32]

19 hours ago, ProfD said:

First, when it comes to key action, they don't make them like they used too. 

 

Back in the day, the cheapest pro-level KB in the store felt decent to play.  Times have changed in that regard. 

 

Yes. Since the introduction of the Yamaha MO6 back in the early 00's, cheaper synth type keys have become the norm.

[voxpops]

I own two Kurz SP6 88 boards (first one bought in 2018), each paired with a VR-09. One of the first things I did with the SP6 was to install about 2000 patches from the Forte SE and PC3 series, and later a few from the K2700/PC4 plus some of Dave Weiser's specials. That gave me a canvas to work with. I use multis exclusively when performing, having built a few hundred from the available sounds. I've used the editor sparingly when I needed to tweak sounds more effectively, but I've been very lazy when it comes to VAST, mainly because I could find pretty much what I needed from the installed palette of sounds. It's actually a very capable board and its innards, I suspect, only differ from the PC4 in a few areas (most obviously, polyphony and aftertouch).

 

I tolerate the action on the SP6 (likewise the VR-09). It's quite quick, but requires a fair degree of pressure at the end of the hammer travel. It's also susceptible to breakage at the pivot point. However, although it's a bulky board, it's very light for its size and that makes it an acceptable gigging board.

 

As an alternative rig I have the Numa X 73 paired with a Vox Continental 61. There is more variety with the Numa's pianos (although they exhibit some quirkiness) and the resonance is far more piano-like, but the lack of a VA synth and dedicated organ engine are telling when trying to build more involved sounds. The Conti versus the VR is a matter of swings and roundabouts. Despite its somewhat more refined engines, its well-documented limitations and less authentic CX3/Leslie simulations, mean I go back and forth between the Conti and VR with no clear winner in terms of sound and control. However, the action is streets ahead. It's less cut and dried between the actions on the Numa and SP6. The Numa feels better (less side-to-side movement, particularly) and more balanced, but I'm not sure it's quite as quick as the SP. I think, for a reasonably lightweight board (weighs about the same as the SP, but is 73-notes vs 88) the Numa is worth considering, depending on the kind of sounds you're looking for.

 

If you decide to keep the PC4 and want to install new sounds, you could make a start with the PC3 programs. You can still access them from this page:

https://kurzweil.com/x-pro_up/

 

Just go to the downloads section and look for:

PC3-V2_Object_Lists

 

There are similarly lots of PC4 and K2700 programs and multis available via ksetlist and other sites. Forte SE programs were also made available for the SP6 (and will work in the PC4). You can download them here:

https://ksetlist.com/community/ksetlist-com-compilations-volumes/forte-se-factory-programs-for-sp6/.

 

They may already exist in the PC4 - some were already in the SP6 factory programs.

[ProfD]

29 minutes ago, voxpops said:

One of the first things I did....install about 2000 patches...

Now I'm curious to know how many songs are on the set-list.😁😎

[voxpops]

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Now I'm curious to know how many songs are on the set-list.😁😎

2001, so I just play kazoo on the extra one. 😁

 

Seriously though, I frequently find it frustrating scrolling through hundreds and hundreds of sounds to find the right one. I should have taken the time early on to organize them properly, but at least they're mostly tagged according to type when you select, say organs or synths. I've also quit deleting ones I think I'll never use as, on more than one occasion, I've discovered that's just the sound I need!

 

The only real issue I've found with some PC3 sounds is that their effects need adjusting with the PC editor, as they sometimes don't respond properly to all the SP6's built-in FX controllers. Some of the Forte SE sounds are based on PC3 patches, but are often enhanced, particularly in terms of FX - and they work well with the SP6.

[kaptainkeys]

On 6/28/2024 at 10:07 AM, voxpops said:

I own two Kurz SP6 88 boards (first one bought in 2018), each paired with a VR-09. One of the first things I did with the SP6 was to install about 2000 patches from the Forte SE and PC3 series, and later a few from the K2700/PC4 plus some of Dave Weiser's specials.

It sounds like what you are saying is that the PC3 and Forte SE factory programs import just fine into the PC4, if so I will probably go ahead and download them assuming I can find a link for them.  I've also got to reach out to Dave for his soundset, I just have not had a chance to with my work schedule last week.

[voxpops]

59 minutes ago, kaptainkeys said:

It sounds like what you are saying is that the PC3 and Forte SE factory programs import just fine into the PC4, if so I will probably go ahead and download them assuming I can find a link for them.  I've also got to reach out to Dave for his soundset, I just have not had a chance to with my work schedule last week.

Yes, the architecture is pretty open and allows for imports of Kurzweil sounds from the past 20 years or so. I gave a couple of links in the post you quoted.

[kaptainkeys]

On 6/30/2024 at 3:25 PM, voxpops said:

Yes, the architecture is pretty open and allows for imports of Kurzweil sounds from the past 20 years or so. I gave a couple of links in the post you quoted.

I'm a little confused on how to access the PC3 sounds on the X-Pro page.

[voxpops]

5 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

I'm a little confused on how to access the PC3 sounds on the X-Pro page.

My apologies, the folder on that page is just the list of sounds (which it would be worth downloading anyway - you'll find it way down below "User Manuals"), what you'll need is the PC3-V221_UPDATE folder, which now seems to have pretty much disappeared from the web. I'll upload it here for you later today, all being well. IIRC, the objects with ".PC3" as a suffix are what you'll need. It's a long time since I loaded these, so I'm very rusty on method, but I'm pretty certain that your PC4 will only display files that it can access, so loading them should be a fairly straightforward process. I think you'll need FX as well as sounds.

[voxpops]

Here's the folder contents. The .PC3 files are near the bottom of the list.

.DS_Store .DS_Store PC3 v2 ArpShiftPatt.pdf PC3 v2 ArpVelPatt.pdf PC3 v2 Complete Base Objects.xls PC3 v2 FX Algs.pdf PC3 v2 FX Chains.pdf PC3 v2 FX Presets.pdf PC3 v2 Keymaps.pdf PC3 v2 Programs.pdf PC3 v2 Samples.pdf PC3 v2 Setups.pdf PC3 v2 Songs.pdf KORE64 Alg.pdf KORE64 FXChains.pdf KORE64 Keymaps.pdf KORE64 Programs (by Category).pdf KORE64 Programs (by ID#).pdf KORE64 Samples.pdf KORE64 Setups.pdf KORE64 ShiftPatterns.pdf KORE64 Songs.pdf KORE64-Objects.xls PC3 V2 Addendum 5-27-11.pdf PC3-v221-OS Install Procedure.html PC3-v221-Release Notes.html PC3FT063.BIN PC3OB212.PC3 PC3OS221.BIN XKORE225.PC3

[kaptainkeys]

Had the chance to try out some other sounds on the PC4, I imported the Forte SE sounds, wasn't to impressed with any of them that weren't already in the PC4 so I removed them to make room for the PC3 sounds.  Unfortunately, they did not import properly (my guess is that the keymaps didn't work correctly) so I removed them and I'm not sure what to do about those patches.  Still need to reach out to Dave Weiser for his soundset, but I was wondering if anybody knows if it is possible to find the K2xxx series factory banks and if they can be imported into the PC4?  I know they won't be the same as on those original boards, but I'm looking for new palettes, not to copy the sounds exactly as they were on those boards, so if they sound different that doesn't matter to me.  I also brought in some DX7 sysex banks, those imported just fine and don't sound notably different from how they sound in the Dexed VST on my computer.

[AnotherScott]

As I understand it, PC3 Programs should work, PC3 Setups (Multis) will not (because they depend on the same Programs being available, at the same locations). I'm not sure the PC4 includes all the Forte SE samples, I don't know how compatible Programs would be. PC3 Programs and KORE64 Programs are the only things that I think could come into the PC4.

[kaptainkeys]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

As I understand it, PC3 Programs should work, PC3 Setups (Multis) will not (because they depend on the same Programs being available, at the same locations). I'm not sure the PC4 includes all the Forte SE samples, I don't know how compatible Programs would be. PC3 Programs and KORE64 Programs are the only things that I think could come into the PC4.

Shockingly the few Forte sounds I imported imported fine using an .FSE file, but the .PC3 files I downloaded from the link that voxpops sent did not work, even though I made sure to import all the objects, samples, and programs.

[voxpops]

12 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

Shockingly the few Forte sounds I imported imported fine using an .FSE file, but the .PC3 files I downloaded from the link that voxpops sent did not work, even though I made sure to import all the objects, samples, and programs.

That's strange, because they've worked fine in my SP6 for the past six years. I recall that there were a couple out of the 2,000 or so that refused to play ball (so I just deleted them), but there are a lot of really useful patches among the remainder. I wonder if someone else with a PC4 could give them a go (the files are attached to my previous post, above).

[kaptainkeys]

11 hours ago, voxpops said:

That's strange, because they've worked fine in my SP6 for the past six years. I recall that there were a couple out of the 2,000 or so that refused to play ball (so I just deleted them), but there are a lot of really useful patches among the remainder. I wonder if someone else with a PC4 could give them a go (the files are attached to my previous post, above).

I downloaded them from your post, I may try going through and installing just a handful of programs and objects and see if I have better luck with that.

[voxpops]

4 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

I downloaded them from your post, I may try going through and installing just a handful of programs and objects and see if I have better luck with that.

I just now transferred the .PC3 files to a USB stick, inserted it in the SP6 and navigated to the place where you can load some objects, which meant I could scroll through the list. They were all there, ready to load. I wanted to check that a later firmware update hadn't messed with the ability to read those files. It all looked fine (same files and names that I already have loaded).

 

I'm really not sure what's going on with the PC4 as it should work in pretty much the same way. I can only suggest reaching out to either Dave Weiser or Kurzweil for assistance (personally I'd opt for Dave!). Good luck.