OT Sound and Gear for a Arena Show 2024

[Docbop]

As most of you know in my youth I was a roadie and sound man for bands including crewing on a Yes arena tour a big band at the time.    This video is for arena tour now and amazing how things have changed in the digital age.   I'm a little surprised no stage monitors at all just IEMs.   I was expecting them to be using Studio One I hear a lot of big shows they playback engineers are using Ableton Live.    I never heard of the band "Take That" but must be popular to take that big of a production on the road.   

 

 

[D. Gauss]

@19:30  "I can't here the drums live."    

 

shoot me now.  high tech karaoke.  might as well just play the album really loud on spotify in the arena.  each show a carbon copy of the last.  no thanks.

 

perhaps some real rock and roll?  how about starting the show by totally fucking up the opening notes of one your most famous songs that you've played 100's of times in front of 60k people?  ha! @:40 sec mark:

 

 

 

[Stokely]

^ You've just described the main reason I have no interest in these big shows.  Might as well stay home and listen to the album.   

I wouldn't want to listen to a local guy with an acoustic playing with tracks, I sure ain't paying big money for a rock version of country bear jamboree.  

[Docbop]

I'm an old Stones fan and I've heard off the board recordings of the Stones live and they are horrible.   Especially Ron Wood just playing when his feels like it or can remember the licks.  

 

Big shows were never my cup of tea even back in the days most were so rehearsed and staged even they were like meat puppets on stage.  Now a days they even pump in audience sound into the PA to get the audience to be more responsive.   I'd rather watch a DVD of a concert than go pay a fortune for tickets,  park, view blocked by people holding their phones making videos they probably won't ever watch, and spend more bucks on swag to prove they were there, no thanks.  That's why I've always prefered hearing bands in clubs they are more spontaneous and working off the audience energy.    

[Moonglow]

Just watched that...wow! I like how he started off explaining things “old school” and then incrementally worked through all of the updated technology. Wish I could have heard a little more of the final “product.” Thanks for sharing. 

[stoken6]

On 6/12/2024 at 4:22 PM, D. Gauss said:

@19:30  "I can't here the drums live."    

 

shoot me now.  high tech karaoke.  might as well just play the album really loud on spotify in the arena.  each show a carbon copy of the last.  no thanks.

He can't hear the drums live because he's on IEMs, not because they're tracked. He's hearing drums (played live), mic'ed up and sent to a foldback bus and a headphone amplifier. . 

 

Now I have exactly as little interest as you do in playback of tracks in "live" music, but the comment you quoted had nothing to do with that.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

Ah well, since i also reacted that way I take it back   

And you don't have to be on a big gig to experience that.  We play some very small gigs, gigs where only the kick drum needs a mic and only a bit.  Even on these, we've been adding a hihat and overhead mic because otherwise we can't hear them from 10 ft or less away.   These two mics often aren't used out front much or at all.   It really changes the feel as you can imagine!

It's a bit counter-intuitive--take all the sound away, then use tech to add some back!  Key word is "some".  The days where I'll willingly be next to an acoustic kit without IEMs, even one with a drummer who doesn't bash like Animal, are over.

[stoken6]

If I could find a pair of earplugs that evenly attenuated the sound, and still enabled me to hear my singing, I'd be happy with that. (Any active noise-cancelling mavens out there - this is your next quest!). Second choice is IEMs - block too much sound, then add back the bits you need. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[J.F.N.]

Stunning!!

 

 

 

[D. Gauss]

18 hours ago, stoken6 said:

He can't hear the drums live because he's on IEMs 

 

fully aware of that, and THAT actually was my point.   in my world, (which obviously is no longer like the real world), music should be visceral and respond to changes/interactions with others.  Clearly, playing to tracks diminish that aspect considerably, but IMO, so do IEMs where you can't hear the actual "source sound" of the instrument right next to you.  I don't want to hear the kick/snare or the bass after it's been EQed & compressed to death, thereby nulling any attempts at dynamics/subtlety from the players.   I realize that I'm ancient and don't play "big league" venues any more (shitty biker bars are more the norm), but on the occasions that i play gigs that actually use monitors, (most gigs=zero monitors), only vocals go through the monitors (no miced instruments save maybe a kick), and more importantly, the vocals go through the monitors "post fader," e.g. the vocal mix in the monitors is exactly the same as the PA so the singers can blend harmonies by ear.  If the drums are too loud, he/she plays softer until it's right.   

    Now get off my lawn you pesky kids, i have to get to Perkins for the "5pm blue plate all you can eat" dinner special...   

[Stokely]

I've mostly gotten a full mix in wedges, minus (sometimes) bass and drums.  So in that respect, there's not much difference between IEMs and wedges.   I do NOT want a guitar amp pointing at me loud enough so that I can hear the high mids over drums....

Some mixers allow you to get a mix of instruments pre-EQ, pre-insert.   The P16m I use allows me to pick where in the signal flow I want each channel.    We don't go nuts with EQ or compression anyway when we mix.  Mostly just a bit of high pass filter on some instruments.  With sound company gigs, yes I'd prefer to get a mix before compression (ESPECIALLY compression because those people often squash keys to oblivion) but I wouldn't normally be using IEMs at those gigs anyway.

I can see the post-fader vocal point, but it's not something I've ever done.  We have a sound guy now so we let me adjust as needed out front, and I don't want to hear it if he does that.    We just work on "working the mic" and get a pretty decent blend that way.   Four of us sing lead so it is tricky.  I can't normally hear our bass player's harmonies very well (he backs off a bit too much IMO) but we work the parts out in vocal practice so I know what he's doing.  

Bottom line, I would have quit years ago if not for IEMs....that, or moved away from a full band with a drummer.   My ears were ringing after every single show.  Now, they never do.

[stoken6]

On 6/14/2024 at 2:24 PM, D. Gauss said:

fully aware of that, and THAT actually was my point.   in my world, (which obviously is no longer like the real world), music should be visceral and respond to changes/interactions with others.  Clearly, playing to tracks diminish that aspect considerably, but IMO, so do IEMs where you can't hear the actual "source sound" of the instrument right next to you

It was the comment

On 6/12/2024 at 4:22 PM, D. Gauss said:

high tech karaoke.  might as well just play the album really loud on spotify in the arena

that sent me a different way. ("Tracks" = karaoke, and "Tracks" = play the album). 

 

Personally, I thank IEMs for saving my hearing and prolonging my gigging experience. Noisy amps and drum kits  may be "visceral" but they're not pleasant.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[analogika]

On 6/14/2024 at 3:24 PM, D. Gauss said:

 

fully aware of that, and THAT actually was my point.   in my world, (which obviously is no longer like the real world), music should be visceral and respond to changes/interactions with others.  Clearly, playing to tracks diminish that aspect considerably, but IMO, so do IEMs where you can't hear the actual "source sound" of the instrument right next to you.  I don't want to hear the kick/snare or the bass after it's been EQed & compressed to death, thereby nulling any attempts at dynamics/subtlety from the players.   

 

If you normally play gigs without any monitoring at all (or, at best, a vocal monitor), then I hope you consider yourself suitably lucky that you actually hear everything you need at a decent balance, while so does the audience. I've played a few such gigs, but rarely with more than four people on stage. 

You've never played IEM, though, have you? 

 

Your entire monitor mix is usually split off from the stage box, BEFORE it goes to FoH. Whatever compression or FX you have on your own in-ear mix is ENTIRELY up to you. 

The second-biggest reason for going to IEM in the first place is to ENABLE players to hear the actual "source sound", and not a compressed, harshly EQ'd signal, piped through a speaker sitting somewhere near you (or not), and mixed to barely balance between making stuff audible to you and not causing stupid feedback, and not bleeding into everybody else's mic too much (which is the single biggest reason for IEM). 

For the band I do most of my stage work with, there's the vocal chain compression from the hardware pre-amp and hardware comp on the bass signal, but everything else in my mix is completely uncompressed. And I get to adjust the mix myself, by what I want to hear. 

Anything bigger than a thirty-foot stage, you're NOT going to be hearing the "actual source sound" anyway — just diffuse banging and whatever gets piped into your wedge and the sidefills.