Who killed Sam Ash (and how is Guitar Center still alive)?

[p90jr]

(I'm "gifting" this article so you can read it without a New York Times subscription)

Sam Ash Music Stores to Close After 100 Years in Business
The chain, which started with a single shop in Brooklyn in 1924, said it would close all 42 of its locations by the end of July, citing competition from online retailers.

Some of you should remember that I've been watching for the death of Guitar Center and posting updates on that here for... I think close to 15 years, now... (wow, time flies)... and somehow it has beaten the odds, and actually shot into the black during the great guitar-buying frenzy during the COVID shutdown, which of course was not going to last (though apparently the suits in the instrument business believed it would...).

I don't know if someone shared this here already but...

“We forgot who our core customer was”: Guitar Center CEO says premium guitars key to firm’s future and promises “playground” experience for serious musicians

Gabe Dalporto, the new CEO of the US-based gear giant, outlined his vision for the firm, and a retail experience that lets players get hands-on with more pro-quality gear

some counter opinions:
Tom Morello Hits Back at Guitar Center CEO's Controversial Comments About Affordable Instruments
"He doesn’t want to sell guitars to serious musicians, he wants to sell expensive guitars to lawyers/doctors/etc." - X (Twitter) user comment 

Here's my opinion(s):

Sweetwater were genuises in setting up their entire online operation. It improved on Musician's Friend and made it more focused and personal.

The Chicago Music Exchange were genuises when they set up Reverb. It improved on eBay and made it more focused and personal for gear.

It's a simple rule of economics and business that you make more money selling a lot of something that is inexpensive than a few of something that is expensive. You will not have someone come in and buy a $1,500+ guitar every single day, but you will have someone come in and buy a pack of strings and picks and a patch cable every hour if you're in the right location, and that is what pays the bills steadily. You sell a lot of Squier and Epi starter packs around Christmas... that is the market to let GC grow into a behemoth (along with Bain Capital...).

"Pros" are also pros at the hunt of finding great guitars and gear for a bargain, and vintage gear has long been fashionable to everybody except maybe the metal segment. I don't see the "pro" segment going into Guitar Center anymore... it turned itself into the WalMart of music gear, just as others more shrewdly built online things aimed at Pros.

The used gear section of GC's website is abysmal.

Brick and Mortar music stores can't sell expensive gear that's new, because most guitar buyers these days suffer from "Trogly's disease": they expect a guitar to be perfect and never before handled by human hands... unopened in a box, flawless... so a physical store would have to have a floor demo model and then boxed models in the back, which most can't afford to stock that way. A guy ranted in a guitar group on facebook that he went to GC and asked for a guitar and told them he wanted an unopened one from the back, so they got one, put it on the counter and started opening the box... he lost his temper and they looked at him like he was nuts. "Didn't I say I wanted an unopened one! Why are you opening it!" "Hey, man... I have to see what I'm selling you so you don't come back and say it was a Squier in the wrong box or something, you can be the only one who touches it!" "Forget it, you're idiots!!!" Storms off... he didn't appreciate people telling him he was unreasonable and nuts. So that shifts sales to online. Local guitar shops can do well if they're good at finding used instruments and selling them online. As for new guitars, besides the big sellers the guitar companies themselves are cutting out the middle man and selling direct online, now... so if you can afford to stock every model of guitar in every color and variation and not open them for display you can have happy customers. People now expect it to work like Target where you look at the display model and buy an unopened example... a change from the "I would never buy a guitar unless I'd played it for an hour to make sure I liked it" mindset.

So... GC will create a lot of dented and scratched new guitars that they have to sell as used to move if they put the $500 and up guitars within arms reach on the wall. I can't see this as a winning business strategy. Maybe with their volume they can afford to have a demo model designated of higher-end guitars on the floor at each store that they "sacrifice." My personal advice to them would be to have employees set up, stretch out and tune all of the Squiers and Epiphones on the low level of the wall, because they're uniformly awful and seem to go right out of the box onto the wall with no care... and I've watched kids come in with their parents and grab one and plug it in and have an awful experience, which makes them think the guitar is defective because it's almost impossible to tune, the intonation isn't set, the action sticks and frets buzz and strings ground out and electronics don't work properly. And I say that as a guy who had the same experience as a 13-year-old who was excited to find tons of vintage Jazzmasters and Jaguars in pawn shops for $50-150 that were all wrecks and scared me off.

But also, I think we're headed into the great post-COVID Guitar comedown... there's a glut of slightly used guitars on the market, which in turn should be creating a glut of new guitars on the market... which could be what killed Sam Ash.

[AnotherScott]

Two thoughts...

 

...One, if a customer wants an unopened box, then for god's sake, check with him before you open it! If the store really has a policy of selling no unopened boxes (I've never heard of such a thing), let him know that. But don't just go ahead an open it. Maybe he was buying it as a gift, or has other reasons for wanting it to be factory sealed, he's entitled to that.

 

...Two, with guitars, I think it's unusual that someone actually wants a sealed box, I think they usually WANT the exact display unit they played. There's no real additional value here to "one that has been untouched by human hands since leaving the factory," at least compared to "I want the exact one that put that smile on my face when I played it." Because more than with keyboards, every guitar can feel and play a little differently. Especially acoustics, but even electrics. At least that's how it used to be, anyway.

[p90jr]

... One... I dunno, it was Guitar Center, and I'm sure they have their share of scams... hell, people grab guitars and just run out of their stores some places.

--Two. While I agree with you, generally (I've bought a lot of guitars online, most of the ones I have, really...) that doesn't seem to be the emerging mindset, and I think that's because you and I are players who buy guitars to play, and increasingly the average guitar customer is someone buying an object they think will appreciate rapidly and they don't really play that well or gig. I want used or "open box/demo" guitars that are pre-dented and discounted, so I don't get pissed when I do it... I'm fine with B-stock stuff... it's going to get played and gigged and as careful as I try to be some wear will happen. I get great laughs from guitar groups on facebook (as much as from vinyl record groups on facebook) because people are increasingly a bit nutty and unknowledgeable. The guys returning Fenders because of that inevitable hairline fracture in the finish that almost all of them get in that lip where the neck is bolted on (if you have a Strat, you have to know what I'm talking about)... the fact that they ignore the instruction to not open the box and let the guitar acclimate to the new environment/temperature for 48 hours then return the guitar 3 days later when "this crack happened in the finish!!!" is funny/sad. Guys will dent a guitar and ask how much it costs to have it refinished... we're talking about MIM Telecasters, not expensive vintage guitars. People will post a guitar that they've changed something on and people start yelling at them about "ruining the resale value!" Like, for a late 70s Fender Brinco or something. One guy trolled a group by posting tons of pics of Late-50s Les Pauls and early 60s Les Pauls/SGs that had been heavily modified and letting them all go insane... and I recognized that these were Les Paul's personal guitars that were being auctioned off... they sold for way more than if they were perfect because they were LES PAUL'S PERSONAL GUITARS!!!! mostly prototypes he was experimenting on, and all were given to him for free... "It doesn't matter. He was a jerk to do that to vintage guitars, man!!!"

The "pros" I know can't afford $3,000 guitars because they're playing for a living and don't make that kind of money... unless they do make that kind of money in which case they're big enough to be given a lot of stuff by companies and they buy rare vintage stuff as tax write-offs. EVen some kids I know in a stoner metal band got to the point where Gibson gave them guitars on permanent loan, which came in handy because they were trying to figure out how to afford guitars after grinding the affordable stuff they had down with constant touring.

This actually just rolled around on my youtube channel while I was assembling something for my wife. I like this guy... he usually has some good insights as a former store owner...
 

1:37:22 below he talks about GC
 

 

I believe acoustic guitars are overwhelmingly sold online these days...

[surfergirl]

Sweetwater is not on my favorite list anymore. I have an order coming from them now, it's shipped but I have go to my account to get the information. I've received no order confirmation or shipping confirmation. My last order was 6 days late. But they were both sale or demo and a good price. I guess you can't always expect good service. I try to buy local if I can, but they don't always have demos blemished or B stock, which is what I look for.

[CEB]

If I buy a new guitar I better not get it in an unopened box.  That s*** needs to be setup.  Even then getting my Acoustic stuff right is often a process.  

 

Unopened box is cool for keyboards but, guitars are a no.   But that is just me.

[Winston Psmith]

GC is still alive in part because it killed off so many small independents that the major manufacturers and distributors still need GC to front their products, at least for now. It'll be interesting to see how many of them start looking into exclusive relationships with other marketers, the way you can only find Behringer gear through Sweetwater.

 

I know back when GC could still afford to mail out regular sales flyers and catalogs, you'd see some products that were exclusive to GC. In many cases, it wasn't so much a particular model or product that was exclusive, so much as a cosmetic detail, like a specific Guitar finish, or a pedal with different graphics than the usual run, but otherwise, pretty much a stock item. As it is, I can't think of the last time I got any kind of flyer/ad from GC?

 

Luckily, here in the D.C. area, we still have Chuck Levin's Washington Music Center (locally known as "Chuck's"), which is very much what you'd expect a full-service Music store to look like, well-stocked, and well-staffed, with some folks who have worked there for decades, no exaggeration. For Used Gear, we have Atomic Music, out in the industrial wasteland of Beltsville, where I have found some of the coolest, and strangest stuff I currently use. There are also a few other independent Music stores, even for Vintage Gear.

 

If GC were to shut down, it's not the Pros who'd be impacted, at least not here. Many of the big acts coming through town check in with Chuck's, and many of the locals have long-time relationships with Chuck's.

 

In fairness, I have to mention the small GC outlet that was just blocks from my house, tucked into the upstairs of a local indoor mall. There were some good folks working there, and the vibe was very different from many of the full-size GC's. I found my Brian Moore iGuitar in that store, and the last thing I got there was my Quarantine Guitar, a used Taylor 110CE, bought on Friday the 13th, 2020, right before the world closed down. Less than a week later, our Governor ordered all indoor malls to close, which killed that GC outlet.

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

On 5/5/2024 at 1:00 PM, AnotherScott said:

 

 

...Two, with guitars, I think it's unusual that someone actually wants a sealed box, I think they usually WANT the exact display unit they played. There's no real additional value here to "one that has been untouched by human hands since leaving the factory".....

 

 

[p90jr]

 

[p90jr]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guitar/comments/8xrxje/question_guitar_center_told_me_they_cant_give_me/?embed_host_url=https://forums.musicplayer.com/index.php

 

[murphybridget]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:00 AM, Winston Psmith said:

GC is still alive in part because it killed off so many small independents that the major manufacturers and distributors still need GC to front their products, at least for now. It'll be interesting to see how many of them start looking into exclusive relationships with other marketers, the way you can only find Behringer gear through Sweetwater.

 

I know back when GC could still afford to mail out regular sales flyers and catalogs, you'd see some products that were exclusive to GC. In many cases, it wasn't so much a particular model or product that was exclusive, so much as a cosmetic detail, like a specific Guitar finish, or a pedal with different graphics than the usual run, but otherwise, pretty much a stock item. As it is, I can't think of the last time I got any kind of flyer/ad from GC?

 

Luckily, here in the D.C. area, we still have Chuck Levin's Washington Music Center (locally known as "Chuck's"), which is very much what you'd expect a full-service Music store to look like, well-stocked, and well-staffed, with some folks who have worked there for decades, no exaggeration. For Used Gear, we have Atomic Music, out in the industrial wasteland of Beltsville, where I have found some of the coolest, and strangest stuff I currently use. There are also a few other independent Music stores, even for Vintage Gear.

 

If GC were to shut down, it's not the Pros who'd be impacted, at least not here. Many of the big acts coming through town check in with Chuck's, and many of the locals have long-time relationships with Chuck's.

 

In fairness, I have to mention the small GC outlet that was just blocks from my house, tucked into the upstairs of a local indoor mall. There were some good folks working there, and the vibe was very different from many of the full-size GC's. I found my Brian Moore iGuitar in that store, and the last thing I got there was my Quarantine Guitar, a used Taylor 110CE, bought on Friday the 13th, 2020, right before the world closed down. Less than a week later, our Governor ordered all indoor malls to close, which killed that GC outlet.

It's interesting how Guitar Center used to offer exclusive products or cosmetic variations in their catalogs. It's a shame that physical flyers and catalogs seem to be less common these days. It might be worth checking out their online offerings to see if they still have any exclusive items or unique finishes available.

[skipclone 1]

Sad news. My main U.S. electric which is still in storage, was purchased at Sam Ash. I went through maybe half a dozen Charvels before I found 
'the one'.  

[ElmerJFudd]

The MI retail business has changed so much.  Derek Ash tried to close 18 underperforming stores, but that wasn’t enough for them to continue being Sam Ash.  Their model had always been to have a great showroom with quality instruments to try out.  Ditching the quality stuff and filling the shops with entry level gear that anyone can grab online for less doesn’t work for them.  
 

GC is a mess.  The two that are closest to me are packed with boxes right in the showroom like a warehouse.  Staff isn’t maintaining the showroom.  In fact, other than the cashier’s desk there isn’t much other staff.  It’s packed with used guitars and amps in various condition.  Expensive vintage guitars are hung up high. They still have some big brand stuff new - Yamaha, Roland, Fender.   But they also carry a lot of cheap stuff, Williams, Harbinger, etc.  They’ll sell anything at every price point.   Somehow it keeps them afloat.  
 

I’ve suggested a few times on this forum that I’d be willing to pay an entrance fee at a shop that maintained a great showroom with the latest gear to try.  But what’s reasonable?  $5, $15? Maybe $10 bucks with the option to put it toward your purchase if you buy something during your visit.  But I don’t know if there are enough people willing to do the same.   Maybe when there are 0 physical stores that will change.  

[Larryz]

@ElmerJFudd,  I wouldn't pay $5, $10 or $15 bucks in order to shop in a music store even if they gave me the money back upon a purchase.  I think brick and mortar stores have a hard enough time attracting customers these days and charging them an entrance fee just to shop could discourage them from coming in.  Maybe a pay to play fee with a credit for puchase might work?  A discount for floor models that have been played? +1 It's good to come up with ideas and suggestions to help the stores stay in business...(kids stealing knobs and leaving scratches is always a problem). 😎👍

[surfergirl]

I'm not going to pay to shop in a music store. If I did it would definitely not be Guitar Center. 

[murphybridget]

That's crazy! It's wild how Guitar Center bounced back during COVID. Thanks for keeping us updated all these years. It'll be interesting to see what happens next!

[Stokely]

Sam Ash perhaps purported to have a model where they had high end showrooms with lots of gear to try out, but as far back as I can remember (many years) the two here in town were no better than the two Guitar Centers in that regard, and in some ways worse.   All of them fluctuated as far as keyboards in stock, some periods of time they'd actually have some "off the beaten track" models while during others you'd only see the usual suspects.

There was never much difference in stock types/brands between the two when it came to guitars and keys at least.  Sam Ash also had wind/brass/strings and I know shinola about the drums.   Pro audio like speakers I mostly ignored in both places.

Sam Ash was worse than GC about plugging in their gear, though that is a low bar.  I mean, c'mon.  That is the bare minimum you can do, have a power cord connected to the keyboard and have the "on" switch work when a customer flips it.  Extra bonus points for having the audio hooked up, it was always a surprise when it was--didn't matter much to me because I always either asked for headphones or brought my own.

 

End of the day I stopped going in to any of them for keys.  Hardly any selection to go with uncompetitive prices.  I'd pay a bit more to buy one locally but there didn't seem to be any deals to be had.  Unlike SW, where they knocked 300 dollars off the price of the Summit when I asked if they had any room to deal.  Bam, bought it that day.

 

[Winston Psmith]

Sideways thought - How do we think that $X "admission" price would go over in any other retail market, or, let's say, restaurants*? How about everybody's favorite, Automobile dealerships? Did I just hear a murmur of distant cursing?

 

Even as a nominal "fee," or whatever they might call it, it's a high-pressure sales tactic in drag as the cost of doing business. You'd already feel pressed to find something, in order to get the value of your money back, since under this model, you are not going to get your money back, otherwise.

 

There's a phrase I heard growing up in NYC, "Nickel and diming people to death." Think of all those dubious "fees" tacked onto tickets for concerts, or sporting events. It's not a good thing . . .

 

 

*Washington D.C.'s restaurant scene is a perfectly disastrous example of a fee structure gone wrong.

 

 

We now return to our previously scheduled program, already in progress.

[surfergirl]

Some places (Costco) are already charging you to shop, they just disguise it as a membership fee. If you have the $120. dollar Costco membership and shop once a month, you're paying $10. a visit. We don't shop there, so maybe the savings make it worthwhile.

[Sharkman]

This is a very touchy subject for me.  I was a gun show dealer for over forty years, so I'm used to people paying money just to walk in the door and see what's for sale.  And, I still do four big hunting/fishing shows a year, and those shows hit people for $10 each, not including a high price (in my less than humble opinion) to park your vehicle.  BUT, on the other hand, if I went to a music store that tried to charge me some sort of entrance fee, even if it was refundable, I would say some very loud and highly offensive things to whoever was collecting the entrance fee.  And then I would turn around and leave.  And yet, I have memberships to both Costco and Sam's Club, which charge an annual fee to be able to shop at their stores.  And I have no problem paying for those two memberships, because I save far more money each year than it costs to go there.  Incidentally, if someone were to look at my bank statements, they would ask why does he have so many purchases at Costco for $1.59?  That's the price of a hot dog and a pop with unlimited refills.  As a matter of fact, I have my cup of Pepsi right next to me that I got at Costco about three hours ago. LOL!

[Winston Psmith]

@Sharkman - I hear you, and I agree that there's difference between an admission fee for a one-off event, like a Trade Show, and a bricks-&-mortar retail establishment charging you admission just to come in and browse. 

 

[surfergirl]

My mom has a booth at a swap meet, they charge $2. and people complain about that.

Back to Guitar Center. Although I like to deal with my FLMS, I do occasionally go to the GC in Pearl City. I have found the staff there to be friendly and knowledgeable and the store well stocked. My FLMS seems to be as busy as ever, so I don't feel GC has hurt them and some ways may be helping.

During the pandemic you could schedule a private shopping session at my FLMS, they didn't charge, but I  may have been willing to pay for something like that. 

[Larryz]

I pay $60 bucks a year to shop at Costco.  I use my Costco credit card for everything and earn $300 or more a year in cash bonus points.  I use the self-checkout to avoid the lines as they don't allow purchases of alcohol.  So once a year in February when I get my bonus points, I stand in line and buy $300 bucks worth of my favorite Tequila LoL! 

[Thethirdapple]

Retail distribution is a losing business model on its own…

 

”music stores”, especially brick and mortar, should have a core service/repair model first with retail distribution, second, simply as a “side hustle” to bring new clients into a service oriented relationship. The service could be all sorts of offerings; a club, lessons, repairs, openmic’s with store gear, just a chill hang out!!!

 

Would I go hang out at my local mom and pop grocery store…maybe

Would I go hang out at my local mom and pop music store…YUP
 

Having a department store of musical gear, at not really discounted prices, simply to awkwardly “try” some gear, with impersonal staff has lost its charm for this kid. And I’m not so sure gear manufactures really even need the ol’skool retail model…

 

 

 

RETAIL IS DEAD, LONG LIVE RETAIL

 

 

 

 

PEACE

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[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Thethirdapple said:

”music stores”, especially brick and mortar, should have a core service/repair model first

 

I agree that would be ideal. imagine if Guitar Center locations could actually service keyboards, how convenient that would be. And if they told customers that gear that is purchased at GC gets priority and/or discounted service over gear bought elsewhere, people would have that much more reason to choose GC as their place to buy the gear in the first place.

[Winston Psmith]

Most small, independent Music stores already relied on a mix of lessons, repairs, and Instrument rentals to supplement the income from retail sales. I spent many hours myself, doing minor repairs and adjustments, and IDK how many re-string's, all as part of my regular work.

 

Even so, we had to farm out repairs on Band and Orchestra Instruments, and as for almost any digital gear, Synths, MFX, Drum Machines, unless it was a simple matter of swapping out the backup battery, we didn't mess with them; that required a whole different skill set, toolbox, and parts department.

 

I should mention that with new gear, anything still under warranty, even if you were an Authorized dealer, that didn't mean you were an Authorized Repair shop. We could re-string someone's Guitar or Bass without worrying about the warranty, but if someone needed a new jack, or switch, or anything where you had to pull out a screwdriver and a soldering iron, that was warranty work, and usually had to be shipped off.

 

Relying on lessons brings its own issues, not least of which is finding good teachers, and then holding onto students, once you have them. The PITA factor is high, to say the least.

 

If you've ever gone through the process of renting a Band Instrument, my apologies. It's almost as bad as buying a car. Anyone who's ever worked in a Music Store during rental season also came to dread it. Still, the stores handling the rentals don't get the payments, but the stores have to deal with all the people, paperwork, & processing, while the payments go to the rental companies.

[Thethirdapple]

@Winston Psmith True all that +++

 

My thoughts wondered into what it might look like if GC or formerly SA leveraged what they could to create “services” within their megastores and NOT like electronics stores of yesteryear with repair teams (yuck), but leverage musicians themselves to run workshops and the like, mixing of venue and retail can be a win, win!

 

And if a gear company wants to miss out on being featured by not “authorizing” repairs and mods, thats their loss.

 

A vision of musicians making a new space for, dare I say, ourselves and all those who appreciate Music.

 

just a thought…

 

 

PEACE

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[surfergirl]

Between my grandpa and me we do most of our tech stuff, but if I do need to take something in for repair I would go to my FLMS. They've been in business for 75 years and we've been doing business with them for most of that time. They do quality work and I would trust them over GC anytime. You don't last that long, in any business, without doing something right.

https://www.easymusiccenter.com