i-VI

[CyberGene]

Either I’m late to the party or it’s a new trend but a lot of current music, or more specifically the one that attempts to be on a dramatic/epic scale can just go on using i-VI chords forever (the VI often being maj7, thus keeping the minor triad and adding the VI bass note), e.g. Cm - Abmaj7.

 

Is that the only way to create dramatic tension nowadays? 🧐 Where did all the other chord progressions go?

 

OK, I’m generalizing but still 😀

[ElmerJFudd]

It’s a purposeful effort to kill off the ii V.  

[MathOfInsects]

i-bVI is OK but watch out for the vi-IV.

[JamPro]

What are some popular songs that have this forever loop of i - VI?

[MathOfInsects]

"There must be some kind of way out of here"

Said a joker to a thief.

 

 

[ProfD]

IMO, the progression is of less concern than those depressing sounds they sometimes choose to use. Those tunes call for an intervention or a hotline number.🤣😎

[jazzpiano88]

Is it the String patch drone pattern of "Law and Order" every episode for the full hour?

[Jazz+]

It's called the smooth jazz new age progression.

[AROIOS]

On 4/6/2024 at 5:58 AM, CyberGene said:

Either I’m late to the party or it’s a new trend but a lot of current music, or more specifically the one that attempts to be on a dramatic/epic scale can just go on using i-VI chords forever (the VI often being maj7, thus keeping the minor triad and adding the VI bass note), e.g. Cm - Abmaj7.

 

Is that the only way to create dramatic tension nowadays? 🧐 Where did all the other chord progressions go?

 

OK, I’m generalizing but still 😀

I don't see (hear) that progression (attached below) as being dramatic/epic at all. The "Light My Fire" i-vi progression is probably abused more in film/TV scores.

What am I missing?

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

bVI.

 

 

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

bVI

I was wondering if I should write it as bVI or just VI since it’s a minor key, apparent by i. 
 

1 hour ago, AROIOS said:

I don't see (hear) that progression (attached below) as being dramatic/epic at all

I meant bVI as MOI pointed out. And “dramatic/epic” was an exaggeration on my side 😀

 

BTW, I was sure that one of my favorite bands Porcupine Tree must not have abused it although they are an ideal place for it, however I stumbled upon one of their songs in the car today and it’s there too 😀 Not overly so, but still a few repetitions on a few places throughout the piece. 
 

 

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I was wondering if I should write it as bVI or just VI since it’s a minor key, apparent by i. 
 

I meant bVI as MOI pointed out. And “dramatic/epic” was an exaggeration on my side 😀

Ah, I see. Without additional context, I would have heard it simply as iiim-Imaj7 or vim-IVmaj7.

[MathOfInsects]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I was wondering if I should write it as bVI or just VI since it’s a minor key, apparent by i. 

I know, it's always an open question with minor keys. The Nashville guys avoid it by charting against the relative major--so your dreaded progression would be vi-IV (or really 6- 4).

But the nature of the 6 with a minor chord is always a bit up in the air until there's more info. I usually refer to the INTERVALS, rather than the scale degrees, to be extra clear. (So Cm-Eb-Ab-G would be i, bIII, bVI, V.) It's not quite proper but it's also IMO the way least likely to raise questions.

[stoken6]

6 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

bVI.

 

6 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I meant bVI as MOI pointed out.

Now it makes sense. I must admit I haven't heard much i-VI (e.g. Cmin-Amaj).

 

I will also mention close cousin I-VI: The "Goldfinger" Cadence.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CyberGene]

I think the award goes to the Airbag band. I’m serious, their entire output is based on endless repeats of i-bVI 😀

 

Here’s one of their most popular songs that’s made almost entirely of it:

 

[dsetto]

I hope my fingers remember to keep off it. 'specially unearned.

 

Then we forget thinking. 

 

And yeah, I didn't enter the thread when I heard A follow Cm. 

[CyberGene]

Any moderator caring to rename the thread to “i-bVI”? 🙏🏻 Bonus points for putting b in front of the VI in my first post 😀 🍻

[time4jazz]

On 4/9/2024 at 1:33 AM, MathOfInsects said:

I usually refer to the INTERVALS, rather than the scale degrees, to be extra clear. (So Cm-Eb-Ab-G would be i, bIII, bVI, V.) It's not quite proper but it's also IMO the way least likely to raise questions.

I write it this way too, though thought of the accidentals as relative to the major scale starting on the same note (so C major in this case). It works out the same, but I like the idea of thinking about it as intervals, which is cleaner. 

[SMcD]

Imo, it's a lot easier to think of it as biii-VII from the raised fourth degree of the relative major.

[AnotherScott]

I can't say I've really noticed a ton of stuff relying heavily on just these two chords. not counting when they are the first or last 2 chords of four (as in the Axis of Awesome skit), or when they bookmark the VII chord (as in Stairway to Heaven, "and as we wind on down the road...").

 

Though this one comes to mind (which uses the two chords with and without the intervening chord)...

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

here's another that popped into my head... the chorus...

 

 

[D. Gauss]

my theory laughably sucks (so be kind, i can't read music), but if it's just repetition, isn't that just the same as iiim to I, until another chord shows up?  e.g. Pretenders "Mystery Achievement?"

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Mystery Achievement is another. Funny how different songs built on the same simple 2-chord pattern can strike you so differently. Of these last three, I really like that Train chorus, i'm okay with the Blondie song, and I really dislike the Pretenders one.

[CyberGene]

2 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

my theory laughably sucks (so be kind, i can't read music), but if it's just repetition, isn't that just the same as iiim to I, until another chord shows up?

Technically you’re right. However in that Mystery Achievement (that I’ve never heard before) I hear that it changes keys. First it’s C# minor then it’s D major.

 

While in C# minor the following chords repeat:

 

C#m - A (and that’s exactly i-bVI that this thread is about!)

 

Then it injects F#m followed by A which is treated as dominant to the key of D major and  thus we modulate and go to repeats of:

D - G (which is I - IV)

 

then it goes through:

D - Bm - F#m - G - A (I - vi - iii - IV - V)

 

and suddenly goes back to the key of C# minor. 

[MathOfInsects]

I think there are i-bIV’s that are i-bIV’s, meaning when they get back to that first minor chord they are at rest, and i-bVI’s that are really vi-IV’s even they never get to a I, meaning that only if they hit a I would they feel at rest.

 

That Pretenders song sounds like a very strong vi-IV. It just happens to modulate to a new key before it ever lands “home” on an E chord. 

[CyberGene]

It may be me but on a lot of modern pop/rock music I can’t really say if it’s in the major or the relative minor key. Especially when they (intentionally?) avoid the dominant to the minor key that would be the ultimate hint of this being minor.

 

With that in mind, whether something is i-bVI or vi-IV is really vague to my mind unless hearing dominant sevenths and other apparent hints. 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

It may be me but on a lot of modern pop/rock music I can’t really say if it’s in the major or the relative minor key. Especially when they (intentionally?) avoid the dominant to the minor key that would be the ultimate hint of this being minor.

 

With that in mind, whether something is i-bVI or vi-IV is really vague to my mind unless hearing dominant sevenths and other apparent hints. 

For sure. In your OP you mention the Ma7 of the bVI chord, and I think this is a pretty big clue. In those songs that sit squarely in the minor i and then move down to that bIV, they often keep the i as the upper structure, and this makes them feel way more minor-y and "1"-like.  

But melody helps too, and in the case of that Pretenders song, so does the bass riff. It really feels like a IV, when it hits that A, and her melody really feels "E"-like, to the point where if you ever played an E chord, it would sound like home, whereas the C#m is sort of an open question. I'd believe you if you ended on it, but I'd still sort of assume an "E" in the mix. Sort of like the intro to "Brandy," (same key), where there's just no question to the ear that we're moving toward a home key we haven't heard yet.  Flip-side example is Layla or Watchtower where that second chord is clearly going to move back to the first one and feel at home there.  

 

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

It may be me but on a lot of modern pop/rock music I can’t really say if it’s in the major or the relative minor key...

That's clear clue for us to not obsess over the I vs. vi dichotomy on that particular piece.

Gospel often takes that kind of ambiguity to the n-th degree, and I LOVE it. Although I'm sure a Classical Theorist can always dissect those common-tone-based progressions down to modulations per beat, and "make sense" out of them. 😃

[AnotherScott]

another... The Police, "Don't Stand So Close To Me"