CyberGene Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 Either I’m late to the party or it’s a new trend but a lot of current music, or more specifically the one that attempts to be on a dramatic/epic scale can just go on using i-VI chords forever (the VI often being maj7, thus keeping the minor triad and adding the VI bass note), e.g. Cm - Abmaj7. Is that the only way to create dramatic tension nowadays? 🧐 Where did all the other chord progressions go? OK, I’m generalizing but still 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 It’s a purposeful effort to kill off the ii V. 2 Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 i-bVI is OK but watch out for the vi-IV. 2 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamPro Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 What are some popular songs that have this forever loop of i - VI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 "There must be some kind of way out of here" Said a joker to a thief. 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 IMO, the progression is of less concern than those depressing sounds they sometimes choose to use. Those tunes call for an intervention or a hotline number.🤣😎 Quote PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzpiano88 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 Is it the String patch drone pattern of "Law and Order" every episode for the full hour? Quote J a z z P i a n o 8 8 -- Yamaha C7D Montage M8x | CP300 | CP4 | SK1-73 | OB6 | Seven K8.2 | 3300 | CPSv.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 It's called the smooth jazz new age progression. Quote Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROIOS Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 On 4/6/2024 at 5:58 AM, CyberGene said: Either I’m late to the party or it’s a new trend but a lot of current music, or more specifically the one that attempts to be on a dramatic/epic scale can just go on using i-VI chords forever (the VI often being maj7, thus keeping the minor triad and adding the VI bass note), e.g. Cm - Abmaj7. Is that the only way to create dramatic tension nowadays? 🧐 Where did all the other chord progressions go? OK, I’m generalizing but still 😀 I don't see (hear) that progression (attached below) as being dramatic/epic at all. The "Light My Fire" i-vi progression is probably abused more in film/TV scores. What am I missing? CHD Pro -064.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 bVI. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGene Posted April 9 Author Share Posted April 9 1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said: bVI I was wondering if I should write it as bVI or just VI since it’s a minor key, apparent by i. 1 hour ago, AROIOS said: I don't see (hear) that progression (attached below) as being dramatic/epic at all I meant bVI as MOI pointed out. And “dramatic/epic” was an exaggeration on my side 😀 BTW, I was sure that one of my favorite bands Porcupine Tree must not have abused it although they are an ideal place for it, however I stumbled upon one of their songs in the car today and it’s there too 😀 Not overly so, but still a few repetitions on a few places throughout the piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROIOS Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 2 hours ago, CyberGene said: I was wondering if I should write it as bVI or just VI since it’s a minor key, apparent by i. I meant bVI as MOI pointed out. And “dramatic/epic” was an exaggeration on my side 😀 Ah, I see. Without additional context, I would have heard it simply as iiim-Imaj7 or vim-IVmaj7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 3 hours ago, CyberGene said: I was wondering if I should write it as bVI or just VI since it’s a minor key, apparent by i. I know, it's always an open question with minor keys. The Nashville guys avoid it by charting against the relative major--so your dreaded progression would be vi-IV (or really 6- 4). But the nature of the 6 with a minor chord is always a bit up in the air until there's more info. I usually refer to the INTERVALS, rather than the scale degrees, to be extra clear. (So Cm-Eb-Ab-G would be i, bIII, bVI, V.) It's not quite proper but it's also IMO the way least likely to raise questions. 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 6 hours ago, MathOfInsects said: bVI. 6 hours ago, CyberGene said: I meant bVI as MOI pointed out. Now it makes sense. I must admit I haven't heard much i-VI (e.g. Cmin-Amaj). I will also mention close cousin I-VI: The "Goldfinger" Cadence. Cheers, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGene Posted April 9 Author Share Posted April 9 I think the award goes to the Airbag band. I’m serious, their entire output is based on endless repeats of i-bVI 😀 Here’s one of their most popular songs that’s made almost entirely of it: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsetto Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 I hope my fingers remember to keep off it. 'specially unearned. Then we forget thinking. And yeah, I didn't enter the thread when I heard A follow Cm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGene Posted April 9 Author Share Posted April 9 Any moderator caring to rename the thread to “i-bVI”? 🙏🏻 Bonus points for putting b in front of the VI in my first post 😀 🍻 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
time4jazz Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 On 4/9/2024 at 1:33 AM, MathOfInsects said: I usually refer to the INTERVALS, rather than the scale degrees, to be extra clear. (So Cm-Eb-Ab-G would be i, bIII, bVI, V.) It's not quite proper but it's also IMO the way least likely to raise questions. I write it this way too, though thought of the accidentals as relative to the major scale starting on the same note (so C major in this case). It works out the same, but I like the idea of thinking about it as intervals, which is cleaner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMcD Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 Imo, it's a lot easier to think of it as biii-VII from the raised fourth degree of the relative major. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 I can't say I've really noticed a ton of stuff relying heavily on just these two chords. not counting when they are the first or last 2 chords of four (as in the Axis of Awesome skit), or when they bookmark the VII chord (as in Stairway to Heaven, "and as we wind on down the road..."). Though this one comes to mind (which uses the two chords with and without the intervening chord)... 1 Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 here's another that popped into my head... the chorus... 1 Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 my theory laughably sucks (so be kind, i can't read music), but if it's just repetition, isn't that just the same as iiim to I, until another chord shows up? e.g. Pretenders "Mystery Achievement?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 Mystery Achievement is another. Funny how different songs built on the same simple 2-chord pattern can strike you so differently. Of these last three, I really like that Train chorus, i'm okay with the Blondie song, and I really dislike the Pretenders one. Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGene Posted April 15 Author Share Posted April 15 2 hours ago, D. Gauss said: my theory laughably sucks (so be kind, i can't read music), but if it's just repetition, isn't that just the same as iiim to I, until another chord shows up? Technically you’re right. However in that Mystery Achievement (that I’ve never heard before) I hear that it changes keys. First it’s C# minor then it’s D major. While in C# minor the following chords repeat: C#m - A (and that’s exactly i-bVI that this thread is about!) Then it injects F#m followed by A which is treated as dominant to the key of D major and thus we modulate and go to repeats of: D - G (which is I - IV) then it goes through: D - Bm - F#m - G - A (I - vi - iii - IV - V) and suddenly goes back to the key of C# minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 I think there are i-bIV’s that are i-bIV’s, meaning when they get back to that first minor chord they are at rest, and i-bVI’s that are really vi-IV’s even they never get to a I, meaning that only if they hit a I would they feel at rest. That Pretenders song sounds like a very strong vi-IV. It just happens to modulate to a new key before it ever lands “home” on an E chord. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGene Posted April 15 Author Share Posted April 15 It may be me but on a lot of modern pop/rock music I can’t really say if it’s in the major or the relative minor key. Especially when they (intentionally?) avoid the dominant to the minor key that would be the ultimate hint of this being minor. With that in mind, whether something is i-bVI or vi-IV is really vague to my mind unless hearing dominant sevenths and other apparent hints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 1 hour ago, CyberGene said: It may be me but on a lot of modern pop/rock music I can’t really say if it’s in the major or the relative minor key. Especially when they (intentionally?) avoid the dominant to the minor key that would be the ultimate hint of this being minor. With that in mind, whether something is i-bVI or vi-IV is really vague to my mind unless hearing dominant sevenths and other apparent hints. For sure. In your OP you mention the Ma7 of the bVI chord, and I think this is a pretty big clue. In those songs that sit squarely in the minor i and then move down to that bIV, they often keep the i as the upper structure, and this makes them feel way more minor-y and "1"-like. But melody helps too, and in the case of that Pretenders song, so does the bass riff. It really feels like a IV, when it hits that A, and her melody really feels "E"-like, to the point where if you ever played an E chord, it would sound like home, whereas the C#m is sort of an open question. I'd believe you if you ended on it, but I'd still sort of assume an "E" in the mix. Sort of like the intro to "Brandy," (same key), where there's just no question to the ear that we're moving toward a home key we haven't heard yet. Flip-side example is Layla or Watchtower where that second chord is clearly going to move back to the first one and feel at home there. 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROIOS Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 2 hours ago, CyberGene said: It may be me but on a lot of modern pop/rock music I can’t really say if it’s in the major or the relative minor key... That's clear clue for us to not obsess over the I vs. vi dichotomy on that particular piece. Gospel often takes that kind of ambiguity to the n-th degree, and I LOVE it. Although I'm sure a Classical Theorist can always dissect those common-tone-based progressions down to modulations per beat, and "make sense" out of them. 😃 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 another... The Police, "Don't Stand So Close To Me" 1 Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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