IEM limiter

[Andre Lower]

Dear Drew,

 

First of all thanks for your interest.

 

You're right, perhaps I am not revealing some important aspects of my usage plans for the IEM. Well I play mostly small sized gigs (less than 100 people), and usually handle my own monitoring (short budget, amateur rock band ). Recordings are not an issue at the moment.

 

As you see, I do not need any fantastic, pristine audio in my earbuds, only a fair quality monitor mix. Bear in mind that I am used to the poor quality of floor wedges in a rock band context.

 

However, hearing conservation and safety is paramount in my priorities list (and yet another reason to go IEM, and also to stick so hard to the idea of fully enclosed, custom-made earpieces). My ego is not involved, I do not want to impress anybody with gear or something. Only want to make it economically feasible and safe.

 

When you mention the vast quality spectrum of pro-audio products out there, I immediate relate it to the risk of compromising safety on choosing too simple/cheap a piece of gear. Some sound advice contemplating this aspect will be much welcome.

 

My reasons to dislike traditional body-packs (Shure P4HW for example) is the battery dependence (because I will use the system a lot and thus prefer AC supply), the comparatively high price (300 bucks for the cheapest, plastic model) the lack of adjustability of limiter threshold and this mysterious distortion aspect that nobody cared to explain up to now (does the limiter distort always? Only once the signal level nears the threshold? Is that inherent or a design fault?).

 

Nevertheless, I do not know all the gear around, and was expecting someone savvier than me to offer options. For instance, if there is any alternative brand of wired body-pack that does not have the inconveniences listed above, I'd love to hear about it. I am only "trying to reinvent the wheel" because all the answers I get are invariably either:

 

1) I must spend a fortune on a line-top complete "system" (which to start with overlooks the fundamental need of customized, fully enclosed earpieces), or

 

2)I must spend with fancy Aphex gadgets which I am sure must be very good but are perhaps not necessary in view of the fact that I only want to have a safe brick-wall limiter.

 

By the way, I am hating this ego-driven little war of some posts above more than anybody else, and would like to apologize for my partial responsibility for polluting this fine list with it. And also ask for some patience with my ignorance of the precise meaning of basic audio terms (with which the list is helping me a lot).

[fantasticsound]

Hartmann - You seem to be missing the point entirely.

 

Why buy Ultimate Ears earbuds if you plan to skimp on the rest of the system? All Where tried to point out was that if you don't plan to spend a lot of $$ (Pardon the dollar signs.. I don't know what money you use in Brazil. ) on the entire system, then you may as well go with a complete system that falls within your budget. This is analogous to buying wide performance tires for a compact car.

 

As far as the limiter distortion is concerned, it's caused when the limiter is hit relatively hard. The problem is that it takes a high quality, independent limiter to brick wall without distortion. The circuit in the Shure pack, for example, will protect your ears, but at the cost of hearing distortion if you run too hot.

 

I don't know why you're seem stuck on "...the idea of fully enclosed, custom-made earpieces..." I would have loved custom molds when I was mixing IEM's a lot, but the foam inserts did (and do) a fine job. The plastic ones didn't work for me, however. Never was comfortable with 'em and they kept slipping out.

 

Why do you want to be so isolated from everything else? Do you plan on adding an ambience mic? Remember, with custom molds you won't hear hardly anything that isn't mixed to your monitor send.

 

I just don't see the need for you to spend a lot of money on earbuds and a cheap, thrown together system when better, inexpensive full systems are available. You seem to be asking for advice on a system that is way beyond your needs and (in the case of Where) seem to be upset that the most knowledgable professional is steering you into a less expensive, yet better suited to you, compromise.

 

Of course, now it sounds like I'm repeating Where's posts. Does that make sense?

[61Pbass]

Let me preface by stating that I've been a diehard IEM user for over a decade now. At this point even the best Clare Bros. 3 way open wedge system doesn't work well for me.

 

I'm not trying to bash you...just curious. If you're not that hung up on sound quality as you stated above, why in the world woud you want to spend the $$$ on a set of UE-7's? Even a set of Shure E-2's (which can be had for around $100 if you shop around) are going to give you more clarity than an open wedge, and they have a myriad of sizes/types of foam/rubber isolators to choose from. Personally, I have molded UE-10's but they're absolutely not a necessity for sound isolation. Molded earpieces are a bit more comfortable, I'll admit, but I used generic E-1's, E-2's, E-5's, etc. for years with no problems at all.

 

What you're proposing will probably work, but it's a hit and miss scenario. While my Sennheiser wireless system eats batteries for lunch (about 4 hrs. life) I don't know where you got the idea that a hardwire pack eats batteries. Our drummer uses Shure's most basic one and gets 20-22 hours out of a standard 9v. If he's using Pro Cells, it's even better than that. Rechargeables are also a viable option. They won't last quite as long, but you buy thyem once and it's over with.

 

Also, I've never had an issue with the limiters on Shure packs. If you're running a mix so hot that you're constantly up against the limiter, or even approaching it often, your mix is WAAAAAAY too hot. I can't even remember the last time I heard mine kick in.

 

There are tons of major touring acts and production companies that replace their systems on a yearly basis. If you scour the internet, trade papers, write, e-mail and/or make calls to production companies you cab find well maintained, high quality IEM systems for about what you were proposing to spend on your buds alone. We just picked up 4 Sennheiser EW-300 wireless systems for less tha $600 each that look and work like new. The deals on that stuff are out there, you just have to find them.

 

Personally, I don't see the point in trying to re-engineer (especially on a limited budget) what has already had millions of dollars put into it to get where it is today. I think you'd be happier in the end if you went with a system set up to work for what your using it for. JMHO.

 

Again, this isn't intended as a bash. I'm just trying to relate 10+ years of IEM experience to ya. If you choose to experiment, good luck.

[Andre Lower]

Neil and 61PBass,

 

Thanks for your answer. The reason I stick so hard with enclosed earbuds is that my band is unholy loud and I never got to hear anything of what I play and sing. Believe me, even the proverbial 26 dB reduction advertised by Ultimate Ears will not keep me from hearing the rest of the band. If nothing else, I'd still feel the beating in my belly ...

 

I understand the concern with isolation, but if it turns out to be necessary I can easily add an ambient Mic to my monitor mix.

 

Your input on the limiter distortion was appreciated. I only wonder if the distortion is perennial or kicks in only when the signal approaches brick wall level. Can you tell me that?

 

Again my aversion for the suggested "complete systems" is the battery dependence, price (they are not inexpensive - a single P4HW plastic beltpack costs 300 bucks), limiter limitations as discussed above and my belief that the bulk of quality of the end-result (in my personal case, mind it) lies in the earbuds, not on the amplifier and limiter that I also need to make it work. LATE EDIT: Well, if PBass above is right about the HW battery consumption, then I am mistaken on that point. I could also be wrong on the limiter, but must try it personally to check it out against my monitoring level, which I hope will not have to be too loud given the outside isolation afforded by my fancy earbuds).

 

Last but not least, my gripe with Where02190 was borne from his unwarranted aggressive manners on answering questions made politely, in a public user group. I might be whatever you guys assume South-Americans to be by default, but I do not offend people gratuitously. That is inexcusable, be Where02190 some pro-audio God or just a musician like most of us.

 

Peace.

[61Pbass]

Originally posted by Hartmann:

... The reason I stick so hard with enclosed earbuds is that my band is unholy loud and I never got to hear anything of what I play and sing. Believe me, even the proverbial 26 dB reduction advertised by Ultimate Ears will not keep me from hearing the rest of the band. If nothing else, I'd still feel the beating in my belly ...

When I started using IEM's I was working for a metal 'artist' (I use the term loosely, but that's another story ) playing venues that seated anywhere from 1000 to 10,000 people. I was standing in front of 2 SVT 8x10 stacks and both guitarists had 2-100 watt Marshall full stacks onstage, and they weren't afraid to use them. Also, the FOH was generally mega thousand watt affairs that cranked out enough bottom end to make an elephant sterile at 500 yards. Ah, the folly of youth. If you're dealing with more stage volume than that, God help you. I was using Shure E-1's with foam earpieces and I never had a problem hearing my IEM's.

 

Your input on the limiter distortion was appreciated. I only wonder if the distortion is perennial or kicks in only when the signal approaches brick wall level. Can you tell me that?

I've never noticed distortion as a problem even in the cheaper Shure hardwire packs, though to be honest, I haven't used a Shure pack in several years. Maybe it's because I don't run my mix so hot that it is constantly engaging the limiter.

 

...my belief that the bulk of quality of the end-result (in my personal case, mind it) lies in the earbuds, not on the amplifier and limiter that I also need to make it work.

Look at it this way...You can have the best mixing console in the world, the best rack gear, and the cleanest amps available and will get a crap sound out front if your main speaker array is junk. The same is true if you get top of the line speakers and the rest of your gear is sub-par. The sound will still be bad. Any audio system, including IEM's, will only be as good as it's weakest link.

 

LATE EDIT: Well, if PBass above is right about the HW battery consumption, then I am mistaken on that point.

That's just my experience. Battery life will go up and down in accordance with how hot you are running your beltpack. Even at the worst, I've never seen a Shure hardwire pack get less than 12 hours on a battery.

 

Hope some of this helps...

[where02190]

Dude if you're so hell bent on building your onw IEM system then just go do it. You've been told about low dost IEM systems, the workaroudn for replacing alkaline batteries by using rechargables, the advantages of a complete designed for IEM system. Obviously no one is going to agree that your method is better or more economical, because it is not.

 

Perhaps your band should learn to play quieter. This would be more enjoyable for both audience and artists, and save everyone's hearing in the long run.

 

You say you "do not need any fantastic, pristine audio in my earbuds, only a fair quality monitor mix", yet you continue to be insistant about spending so much money rather than getting what are very good systems for very reasonable money that are designed to give you EXACTLY what you say you need.

 

You also stated "I am only "trying to reinvent the wheel" because all the answers I get are invariably either:

1) I must spend a fortune on a line-top complete "system" (which to start with overlooks the fundamental need of customized, fully enclosed earpieces), or

2)I must spend with fancy Aphex gadgets which I am sure must be very good but are perhaps not necessary in view of the fact that I only want to have a safe brick-wall limiter."

 

You've already been told you do not need to do either, yet you continue to ignore this advise from the professionals.

 

We can jsut as easily ignore your endless posts dude. We are all trying to help educate you about the concept of IEM's, particularly what the limiter is for. However it seems you can't understand the fact that if the limiter kicks in something is WRONG in the signal chain. Otherwise it will NEVER hit threshold and engage.

 

Might I suggest you find a pro audio dealer that sells or rents Shure or Sennheiser IEM systems and try them out for a few gigs. You'll have to spring for the generic bud inserts (for health reasons they cannot be returned, but they are only a few $$$). Also, get yourself a cheap compressor and headphone amp, and A/B the two systems. Then you can decide for yourself without the help of anyone (which you don't seem to want anyway) which is bettter in a real world scenario.

 

Have a nice life.

[Rick K.]

Checked with the guys. They wanna have an extra. Not that you were looking....

[Andre Lower]

Originally posted by 61Pbass:

I've never noticed distortion as a problem even in the cheaper Shure hardwire packs, though to be honest, I haven't used a Shure pack in several years. Maybe it's because I don't run my mix so hot that it is constantly engaging the limiter.[/qb]

So the distortion I heard about is only occasional and should not happen unless I run the signal too hot. Now that is good news. Added to the fact that the battery life is less of a problem on the wired model belt-packs, it leaves only the price tag as a hindrance. I'll make sure to check it out against any other setups I can get my hands on.

 

...Any audio system, including IEM's, will only be as good as it's weakest link.

I see why my choice of expensive enclosed earphones is confusing everybody. Perhaps the reason is still not clear: I am not choosing UE-5Pro only because it is fancy or pro or whatever. I am choosing it because it is enclosed. The high point for me is the isolation, not strictly the earbuds audio performance. I also considered Shure E-5s encapsulated in Sensaphonic custom earshells, but the final price difference does not make it that much attractive.

 

Perhaps it would be easier to understand the situation if one considers that I live in a country where there are none of the niceties you guys take for granted. I sure would love to have access to regularly inspecting new gear (i.e. try it), return it if it does not suit my needs (over here that is deemed as a ridiculous idea, can you imagine it?), etc. The way things are, I have occasional short trips that afford me a brief opportunity for shopping. I must have all the info I intend to use long before. And still put up with bashings and stuff (just kidding there, my hide is thick as a brick )...

 

Hope some of this helps...

Sure did. Thank you very much.

 

For the infuriated bashers: How about you imagine yourselves in my shoes for once? Would you be gracious?

[videoeditor1]

Hartmann,

 

A guy like Where speaks this way because years and years of tried and tested experience has made him less patient...with what appears to be a mundane question, to which he produced an ideal and best fit solution.

 

Based on the uniqueness of your location ( I am fully aware, I spent a lot of my 1st 21 years in Jamaica) and what you perceive are your special needs, you found his, and other answers lacking. It is understood that getting your hands on gear to evaluate is like getting your hands on someone else's money to see if you like the feeling of spending money.

 

The quick and dirty answers are

 

1. You don't need custom earpieces to get good isolation. I must have done over 140 in ear mixed concerts this year already. One of my acts is an 8 piece band that uses 5 in ear mixes. Four of the 5 use Future Sonics molds, one of the five use the generic Future Sonics buds. Other acts use buds, or custom ears - every scenario works.

 

2. Contrary to the excellent advice you've been getting here, a limiter in not absolutely necessary, a hearing test is. You need to know what shape your ears are in today, and at what points along the audible spectrum you may suffer deficiencies in your hearing.

 

3. If I were in your shoes, not in a "1st world" country (which only means the gear is not made there, but imported), I would take a step back, and look at where I'm socking my hard earned money.

 

4. If you use and monitor your system well, a limiter should only kick in 2-3 times a YEAR. Fuck the high end limiter. For whatever amount of $$$ you're gonna spend on a limiter, if you and your engineers do a 1/2 assed job, it's like insurance. For those few times where it's gonna kick in, sonic quality will not be a must have item on your checklist. Think of a limiter like a bulletproof vest. What we've been discussing so far is how well you're gonna look with the vest under your clothes when you're taking four shots to the gut. If and when your limiter kicks in, shit's gonna be so nasty, you won't care what it sounds like, just as long as you're not being driven deaf.

 

5. Still get a limiter that has some serious mojo (quick acting). Because if you DO skimp, think back to that bulletproof vest, the skimpy one will only stop a 22 caliber bullet, and you're being hit with .45 slugs.

 

6. Tell us everything the 1st time around. Detailed, articulate questions beget the same type of answers. I'm not saying you need to know what "slew rate" or any of that mumbo jumbo is, but know what you want, and express as such.

 

7. Where is probably twice your age, he probably has stage plots & input lists older than you...anything you've done, he's probably done, and forgot how to do it, and forgot that he ever did it...I'm not defending him at all...nor am I defending you, I can see where both of you are coming from...yes, he's talking down to you, and no, it's not "right", but hey, you don't have to heed his advice, I probably wouldn't have sent him a PM after his initial response.

 

8. Distortion means almost the same universally. It's (usually) unwanted change. With IEM's it's the unpleasant distortion that make us fume. Distortion from a Distressor is fine , but not from the limiter protecting your ears. Again, if you happen to hit your limiter more than once a month, you're doing something very wrong.

 

9. Not everyone that tries ears love em. If you get custom molds, they are yours to keep, non returnable.

 

10. OK, so I lied. This is not short.

Look at Ashly compressor / limiters. they are under $300 USD ... or a Presonus unit. Neither of these units are going to muck up the sound to your ears in a big noticeable way if you band plays as loud as you say (to groups of 100-200 people, mind you).

 

Summary:

Get generic buds 1st, get a Presonus unit, or a Ashly unit or a dBX unit (but not the Alesis unit) if you must. If you have a monitor dude, he or she will need buds soon, so if you upgrade to custom molds - you can pass those on.

 

NYC Drew

[Andre Lower]

Hey Drew, thanks for your input. Nice to get someone who is more interested in helping than showing off...

 

Originally posted by NYC Drew:

1. You don't need custom earpieces to get good isolation.

NYC Drew[/QB]

I am starting to believe that this is very subjective and touchy issue, and the best way will be trying for myself. Tough if I am wrong, I'll remember those who said I was...

2. You need to know what shape your ears are in today, and at what points along the audible spectrum you may suffer deficiencies in your hearing.

NYC Drew[/QB]

They are fine. My wife is a doctor and I make a point of regular audiometries. I'm in pretty good shape! On shows and rehearsals, when push comes to shove, I use 3M sound blockers...

 

4. If you use and monitor your system well, a limiter should only kick in 2-3 times a YEAR. Fuck the high end limiter. NYC Drew[/QB]

That is the soundest piece of advice I read in the whole thread after the absolute need for a limiter. That is it, I sure need a limiter, but that does not mean a fancy one. Any one that is quick enough will do.

 

6. Tell us everything the 1st time around. Detailed, articulate questions beget the same type of answers. I'm not saying you need to know what "slew rate" or any of that mumbo jumbo is, but know what you want, and express as such.

NYC Drew[/QB]

The point is I did not have the knowledge of what my needs were in the first place. And did not know I was inviting a bash. I may be spoiled by the professional and yet benevolent manners of the folks in the Keyboard Corner, which is my usual turf. For one thing, I learned to exercise care in here.

 

7. Where is probably twice your age...he probably has stage plots & input lists older than you...anything you've done, he's probably done...

NYC Drew[/QB]

I am 38. Do not believe he is 76. Am also a full Civil Engineer with University degrees in Brazil and Spain, fluent in three languages and a well seasoned traveller. And that does not make me any less humble than the folk next door. I know better than that.

 

9. Not everyone that tries ears love em. If you get custom molds, they are yours to keep, non returnable.

NYC Drew[/QB]

Well, the way things are, I can only find out by trying. And let me point out one funny story: Years ago I had a lousy bass lent to me and after some fumbling with it decided I had no talent for bass playing. A couple of years ago I stumbled on a real good bass (which now sits in my little home studio) and found out I can play fairly well (i.e. Rush tunes, for instance) and had been led to believe I was the problem, when in fact the problem was a bad instrument. Don't wanna do the same with IEM.

 

Thanks for the Ashly and Presonus tips (already checked the Dbx), will snoop about them soon.