Have FireWire Hardware? Apple Says "Too Bad, Go Buy New Stuff"

[Anderton]

6 hours ago, analogika said:

Or would you agree with me that the definition you cited is completely useless in our context? 

 

No. Perhaps I see the world in a more nuanced way. As I said, the definition doesn't specify a cutoff number. So, the relevance of "still useful," at least to me, depends on how many people are still using something. I threw out a number of hundreds of thousands of dollars of FireWire interfaces still in use, but that's a guess. Thinking about it some more, it's probably a lot more than that. If just 100 people globally use the Apollo FireWire, that's a quarter million dollars right there. Add in Apogee, MOTU, Focusrite, RME, PreSonus, Echo, M-Audio, Avid, etc. and I think you're looking at a lot of existing usage. I don't think it's in the category of a handful of people using it for "shits and giggles," nor is about something like a vintage car enthusiast. These products are the way people make a living, and for studios, that's not an easy thing these days. 

 

I think I've also made it clear that I think whether or not Apple's move is justified is also nuanced. At one extreme, if it takes one person working an afternoon, then Apple should do it. If it takes a team months and months of QC and such, then I can understand the economics of that decision. The reality is you don't know what's involved, and neither do I. That's why I wish Apple would explain why they've made the decision to arbitrarily render what could be millions of dollars of interfaces unusable. It's the same question asked of Microsoft about Windows 11 and its strict hardware requirements. Whether or not you liked the answer, at least they answered the question. Furthermore, they changed their policy about not offering security updates for Windows 10 past EOL. In my opinion, that was the right thing to do.

 

I'm not unreasonable. I understand economic realities. But there's another factor: I think Apple should support a standard that it helped develop, promote, and convince manufacturers to adopt. That's the "do the right thing" factor. Case in point: if someone emails me with a question about a DIY project I wrote about in 1979, I'll answer that question. I'm willing to lose several hundred dollars of my time to research the answer and dig through my lab notes. That person supported my efforts, so I'll support them. But if someone expects me to answer a question about a DIY project someone else wrote, I don't feel any obligation. It's not like I like I think Apple should support mLAN. But FireWire was their standard.

 

I'm simply saying that if they're going to make a decision that abandons loyal users and potentially causes environmental harm, I'd like a better reason than "we don't put FireWire ports on our computers anymore, and as to our promoting that Thunderbolt would be backward compatible with FireWire...yeah, whatever."

[KenElevenShadows]

I never thought that firewire would ignite people's passions by this much.

 

I will say that if you don't like how Apple supports tech that they developed, you're really going to need to be wary of Google products.

[Bill Heins]

Quote

Without being flippant about it, musicians who want backward compatibility and a long product life should go for Windows. Those who want premium performance and are willing to pay for it should go for Apple.

Believe it or not, not every PC comes from Walmart at 300.00

 

I spent quite a bit on a build last year and it is fairly powerful....i91200k running at 5.2ghz, 128gb of RAM, dual Lan, TB4, USB 3.2 and 2, room for 4 ssd and 8hdd...yadda yadda. Do the work and you can have a killer machine! So far I have tried running 4-6 instances of Diva in "God Mode" and it doesn't break a sweat

 

 

 

Bill

[analogika]

9 hours ago, RABid said:

Nothing gives me more joy than collecting and keeping up with a bag of adapters for my laptop. I'm a collector. Bought two of those Thunderbolt 2 adapters you spoke of. They must be really good considering Apple is charging $50 for the adapter when they could have spent $5 or much less to build it in. But, that is why I love my Mac. I get to buy Thunderbolt adapters, USB 1/2 adapters, Firewire adapters. The fun never ends. 🤪

I WANT MY VGA OUTPUT 😆

[Anderton]

8 minutes ago, analogika said:

I WANT MY VGA OUTPUT 😆

 

Here you go! DVD drive, too. And Thunderbolt 4 - USB-C, dual HDMI, 4 microphones, upgradeable up to 3TB storage, and upgradable up to 64 GB of RAM.

[Anderton]

8 hours ago, KenElevenShadows said:

I will say that if you don't like how Apple supports tech that they developed, you're really going to need to be wary of Google products.

 

I think the last word is superfluous.

[Notes_Norton]

Apple isn't the only dependable computer out there.

 

My 2002 ThinkPad runs as good as the day I bought it. It spent about 20 years doing one-nighters in my duo. And one-nighters is torture for gear.

 

It runs backing tracks and displays music and/or words on a rocking keyboard A-Frame stand. It gets sudden temperature changes, outdoors in heat and cold and going from hot car to cold AC for the gig.

 

Last year, I traded in for new ThinkPads. Why? I wanted a back-lit keyboard as we are playing a lot of darkened stages and my USB gooseneck light is insufficient.

 

Plus, on the gig I bring a spare, and all my data on a thumb drive. In the very unlikely event that both computers fail, I can go to the store and get a Windows machine to finish the gig. Not so with Macs.

 

I have nothing against Macs, but since my other business requires Windows, ThinkPads are my choice.

 

My first Mac was an Apple Mac Classic II, and I've had a few since then. I liked them.

 

Notes ♫

 

 

[Anderton]

3 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

Apple isn't the only dependable computer out there.

 

True. The way I see it, with a Mac you know that by and large, it's going to meet certain standards that accommodate making music. With Windows, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. I would still take a custom-integrated Windows desktop machine over a Mac, at least for now.

[David Emm]

1 hour ago, Anderton said:

True. The way I see it, with a Mac you know that by and large, it's going to meet certain standards that accommodate making music. With Windows, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. I would still take a custom-integrated Windows desktop machine over a Mac, at least for now.

 

Easily understood! Its not for me, though, due to one simple, awful thing: I began my "computing journey" on a no-name PC clone and Windows 95. 

 

I ended up heaving that hot mess into a dumpster and bought a PowerMac. I've had my Mac issues, but its only gotten better since then. No Mac has ever screwed me with my pants on like Win95 did. I know that was a low point, even for Microsoft, but their Fail was my gain. I respect what Craig and others say about building the computer you personally need. I'm just glad I found a better, grab-&-go option that lets me work readily.

[Anderton]

8 hours ago, David Emm said:

I respect what Craig and others say about building the computer you personally need.

 

Just to be clear - I don't build my own computers because I can't afford any down time. I have PC Audio Labs do it because they a) know what they're doing, and b) re-installed all the software that been installed when I upgraded. It was just pick it up, plug it in, turn it on, and go back to work. They also know how to deal with Macs if needed.

 

My requirements are a little different compared to most people because I need something that can do well with video and audio.

[techristian]

You have to do what I have done. If you want to run old hardware you must run old software and disconnect from the internet. I have an old Unitor 8 port MIDI interface that requires XP and so I'm running XP and Cubase SX V1 on it. I had to limit my cores to 4 in the BIOS for Cubase to run.

I sold my firewire mixer a decade ago.

 

I DON'T LIKE THE LATEST SONAR STUFF. It has TOO MANY OPTIONS, windows, buttons, menus.....etc. etc. ....and they want me to connect to the internet every so often...(to take my works?)

I also needed a computer for my Akai sampler, so I could run MESA II. I'm running on an old Apple with OS 9.2 ...also not connected to the internet. The old Apple cost me only $65 on Ebay a few years ago.

Dan

[analogika]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:27 AM, Anderton said:

My requirements are a little different compared to most people because I need something that can do well with video and audio.

Sooo… a Mac? 😉 

[analogika]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:18 PM, Notes_Norton said:

In the very unlikely event that both computers fail, I can go to the store and get a Windows machine to finish the gig. Not so with Macs.

Genuine curiosity: How is this not true for Macs? 
 

Our stage machines are all Macs — redundant MacBooks running Logic, and another for MainStage — and last-ditch contingency plan is to grab or buy any random Mac nearby, download/transfer Logic or MainStage to that, and run the show. 

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, analogika said:

Sooo… a Mac? 😉 

 

If I was willing to spend $7,000 for a Mac Pro, probably . I used Mac desktops for 20 years. But in the early 2000s, the price/performance ratio of custom-built Windows machines was superior to Macs. So, I've been using Windows desktops for about 20 years. Although the price/performance gap is narrowing, a Windows machine still gives me the power I need for about half the price. What I would need is something between a Mac Studio and a Mac Pro, but closer to the Mac Pro.

 

Laptops are a different story. If I was to buy a new laptop tomorrow, I'd replace my MacBook Pro with a new MacBook Pro. I think it will take years for Intel-based laptops to catch up with Apple laptops, if ever. I think Qualcomm will approach Apple-level performance sooner than Intel.

 

 

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, analogika said:

Genuine curiosity: How is this not true for Macs? 

 

It has a lot to do with size. The USA has an area of about 9.8 million square kilometers, while Germany has about 357,000. Apple has under 300 stores in the US, and 20% of them are in California. So, that doesn't distribute a lot of stores around the country. For example, South Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, Wyoming, and Montana don't have any Apple stores.

 

If you want to buy a Windows machine, there are over 900 Office Depot stores, over 1,000 Best Buy stores, 1,900 Target stores, etc. You can buy Windows laptops at all of them, and there are other places that sell Windows machines. So, if you're in someplace like Burlington, Vermont and your laptop dies, the odds of finding a Windows machine are much better.  

[analogika]

56 minutes ago, Anderton said:

 

It has a lot to do with size. The USA has an area of about 9.8 million square kilometers, while Germany has about 357,000. Apple has under 300 stores in the US, and 20% of them are in California. So, that doesn't distribute a lot of stores around the country. For example, South Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, Wyoming, and Montana don't have any Apple stores.

 

If you want to buy a Windows machine, there are over 900 Office Depot stores, over 1,000 Best Buy stores, 1,900 Target stores, etc. You can buy Windows laptops at all of them, and there are other places that sell Windows machines. So, if you're in someplace like Burlington, Vermont and your laptop dies, the odds of finding a Windows machine are much better.  

Apple has a WAY lower market share in Germany, but every major electronics store carries them — same as in the US. No need to seek out an Apple Store (we have 16, for a population of 83 million). So buying a new Mac on short notice is really easy, and there’s little need to weigh specs and motherboards vs. proper connectors and CPUs etc, nor any need to configure the system: buy the cheapest Mac, turn it on, load Logic or MainStage: done. 
 

As for borrowing one in an emergency: Especially on production (this being the music business) probability is 100% of finding a usable Mac on the premises. 

[Anderton]

That makes a lot of sense. I think availability varies, though. Subjectively speaking, when I go into electronics stores around here in Tennessee, although they're loaded with Apple products (phones, watches, iPads), the computer choices are minimal compared to Windows. The same was true when I lived in New Mexico. But I suppose it's probably different in places like California and Seattle, and like you said, you can just buy a minimal computer to get through the show. Then it just comes down to how much you're willing to spend for a replacement computer.

 

I think the biggest issue with buying an off-the-shelf Windows computer at an office supply store is nuking the bloatware that comes with it, like Norton Virus. I mean, Norton anti-virus  Back in the days when I was travelling for a third of the year, I carried a Mac and Windows laptop so I'd be covered for any connectivity issues with venues. Sometimes I'd be doing concerts, sometimes seminars so there were a lot of variables.

[RABid]

I can tell you that there are no Macs for sale within 80 miles of my house. I can go to Best Buy in Lexington and pick up a 14" MacBook Pro for $1800. I can travel 3 miles to my local Office Depot, which does not have any Macs, and pick up a 15" windows computer with similar specs for $600. I play both sides of the fence. Windows: I've had custom DAW computers from a company in Northern Kentucky, built my own, and my last Windows DAW came from Sweetwater. My last three music computer purchases have been Apple: M1 Air, M1 MacBookPRo, M2 Mini. Right now the M line of chips blows away anything that is available fro Windows. The price you pay is knowing that at any time Apple can and will deem anything they desire as "no longer necessary" and it will be gone. Firewire, Thunderbot 2, USB-A ports, the ability to upgrade memory, the ability to replace internal SSD's, the right to replace a broken screen rather than take it to Apple for repairs. All gone. That is the real Apple tax. I'm very aware of it. Don't mistake my continued purchases to be acceptance. More like these events are moving me closer to the line that I will refuse to cross. That is a big reason I stick with DAW's like Ableton Live that run on both systems. I can jump ship any time I want, and jump back at a later time if I wish.

[Notes_Norton]

6 hours ago, analogika said:

Genuine curiosity: How is this not true for Macs? 

Nobody sells Macs in stores around here. I can get a Windows machine in Office Max, O.Depot, Staples, Walmart, and lots of other stores.

 

Notes ♫

[analogika]

Ah, I get it. For our production, a baseline M1 Air is completely adequate on any of the positions (we’ve just replaced a production machine with a 16GB M1 Air, and it’s not even ticking over).
And I guess the distances here are different. I don’t think we’ve played anywhere more than an hour from being able to buy a new machine. 
I also don’t play small two-man shows with a MacBook, so there’s always at least two or three MacBooks along with other crew, or several more on location. 
 

YMMV. 

[Notes_Norton]

There's more than one right way to do almost anything.

 

All we do are two person shows.

 

<road story>

 

About a decade ago, we were the house band at a Yacht Club. The incoming, new commodore wanted a bigger band for his inagural ball and asked us to hire a few more musicians.

 

Since we play with backing tracks, we hired my bro-in-law on trumpet. Besides being an excellent musician, he has absolute pitch so there was no problem with him fitting it. We added a conga drum player and a stand-up bass player who actually faked it all night, but looked great. It was for good money.

 

The ball was a success, and the new commodore thanked us, told us we did a great job, and added we didn't sound very different. Obviously pleased, he renewed our contract for his term in office.

 

</road story>

 

Sometimes, I miss playing with a bass player, drummer, and keyboard player. Since I do the backing tracks myself, there are no surprises in the rhythm section. All the ideas are mine.

 

But I don't miss the personality conflicts, the musician who is late or takes long breaks, the one who is more interest in getting laid than playing with the band, and all the other group problems. Mrs. Notes and I both have good and similar work ethics. Plus, smaller bands generally make more money per musician than bigger groups, and I don't mind that at all.

 

I've developed my right way of doing this, modified it as new options arrive, and since 1985 when we left the troublesome 5-piece band and formed our duo, the only time we weren't gigging was during the COVID emergency.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

 

[Anderton]

20 hours ago, RABid said:

That is a big reason I stick with DAW's like Ableton Live that run on both systems. I can jump ship any time I want, and jump back at a later time if I wish.

 

Same here. Cross-platform is good for a lot of reasons. The only downside is that Windows-only programs like Cakewalk can take better advantage of unique Windows features that aren 't cross-platform friendly. Ditto Logic and Apple, which knows what changes are coming before any other company.

[analogika]

Have you actually verified that FireWire no longer works? 
 

There are numerous reports of people using FireWire hardware on Ventura, including this one: 

 

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forums/topic/152534-apple-kills-firewire/?do=findComment&comment=889396

[Anderton]

10 hours ago, analogika said:

Have you actually verified that FireWire no longer works? 

 

I haven't, because my computer can't update past Catalina. But after reading the thread, it seems more like it's possible to get it to work with the right version of Thunderbolt, right dock, and right adapters. I guess it remains to be seen whether the people who get it to work or the people who don't get it to work are in the majority.

 

Meanwhile, I saw the comment in that thread about how Intel killed off FireWire, not Apple.  However, it doesn't seem quite that cut and dry - more like Intel pivoted to USB because Apple changed the terms of the licensing agreement, and the industry didn't want to go along. So Intel said "screw it, we'll do USB." This article is a fascinating account of the behind-the-scenes machinations with Apple, Sony, Intel, and Microsoft. It sounds like there was crazy politics and greed around FireWire since its inception. 

 

I still think that if it's doable, Apple should leave FireWire drivers for Core Audio in the OS and take a stand against e-waste that also benefits the pro audio industry. But given the history, I can understand why they probably regret a lot of the decisions about FireWire that were made along the way, see it as an albatross left over from previous regimes, and just want to consign it to the Memory Hole of Lost Standards.

 

[AROIOS]

I've always told my guy friends that:
 

"Mac is this hot, scheming chick skilled at seducing and pleasing you, as long as you put up with her spending habits , controlling behavior and occasional abuse.
 

And Wintel is this grumpy, ugly wife I've suffered so many years with,  to the point where I know how to manipulate her into doing anything for me."
 

A big part of what Apple sells is "sex" and fashion. Lust and romance aren't rational, you can't talk a guy madly in love with the hot chick out of his infatuation. In his eyes, you are simply a tasteless chump who will never understand how amazing his "true love" is.

[Notes_Norton]

I like that. ^^^

 

But for me, Wintel is like the comfortable, still attractive wife that I can depend on. She supports me, won't let me down, doesn't force me to change, and is still my best friend.

 

We gig at an outdoor beachside restaurant/bar, and sometimes young babes will come in wearing nothing more than a bikini. Mrs. Notes is so confident with me that she will say, “That girl has nice _____” and call it to my attention. She knows I'm not going to stray, and I have no desire to do so.

 

I'm leading a charmed life, and I know it.

 

 

Notes ♫

[AROIOS]

19 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

I like that. ^^^

 

But for me, Wintel is like the comfortable, still attractive wife that I can depend on. She supports me, won't let me down, doesn't force me to change, and is still my best friend.

 

We gig at an outdoor beachside restaurant/bar, and sometimes young babes will come in wearing nothing more than a bikini. Mrs. Notes is so confident with me that she will say, “That girl has nice _____” and call it to my attention. She knows I'm not going to stray, and I have no desire to do so.

 

I'm leading a charmed life, and I know it.

 

 

Notes ♫

I'm glad for you Bob. Mrs. Notes definitely sounds like a keeper.

[Anderton]

I asked a couple of contacts at Apple to let me know one way or another whether FireWire has been dropped from Sonoma, is just not turned on, requires a patch, or whatever. I'm not holding my breath for an answer, but I've been pleasantly surprised in the past.

[Notes_Norton]

My first Apple was a Mac Classic II. The one that looked like a toaster. At the same time, I had an Atari and what we called an IBM Compatible that ran Windows 3.1 and DOS-5. I liked the Mac and Atari better than the Mac.  The Mac was OS-6 (or System 6 as it was called)

 

Writing aftermarket styles for BiaB means I have to write them on the PC and port them to Mac. When the Atari was a contender, the PC files just worked in the Atari.

 

The Mac files needed a "Mac Header" inserted in the file. Two data fields needed to be added so that the Mac knew what program to associate the files with. There was a nifty little app that allowed me to manually enter the info.

 

Since I was a content provider, I was actually paying Apple for pro tech support.

 

Things went fine, the PC, and Mac went through a number of upgrades.

 

OSX came around and I needed a new Mac. I called my pro tech support, asked if I could run Band-in-a-Box on a laptop, and the rep said definitely not, and she sold me a big, beautiful eMac with an IBM Power PC CPU. (I found out later, BiaB would run fine on the current laptops — she lied.)

 

But OSX didn't have that little app for the Mac Header info. I called tech help back, and they told me they no longer give help for non-apple software, OSX didn't have that app, and I'm on my own. I went to a Usenet board or an early web forum (I forget which) and one of the members directed me to a shareware app that did that, for only $5.

 

I quit paying for tech support.

 

That one was solved, but about 3 weeks after I bought the eMac, Apple discontinues the Power PC chip and goes to Intel. So in 3 weeks, I'm out $1,500.00 because my eMac is obsolete. The rep who sold me the eMac must have known she was selling me soon-to-be discontinued item, but they were probably trying to clear out old stock.

 

It was to forget about the $15,000.00, upgrade or die. $15,000 was more than the Mac customers made me in a few years, I lost money on that one.

 

These two things made me very sour on Apple.

 

I limped along on my old Mac, which was getting flaky and crashing a lot, doing nothing on it but adding Mac headers, and using the eMac to copy disks, and cursing Apple every time (well almost). This was pre-World-Wide-Web, and I was still sending floppy disks in the mail.

 

Later I learned from PG Music (Band-in-a-Box) that Mac no longer required the Mac Header, I gave the big beautiful eMac away, and other than an iPad, never bought another apple product.

 

I still sell to Apple customers, and I make sure my software is compatible by asking a Mac user to test them for me, in return for the gift of the styles. It's usually about 5-10% of the Band-in-a-Box business, but I hate to abandon the platform.

 

So I'm done with upgrade or die.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

So many different stories. I owned my first Mac when they allowed clones, mine was (if memory serves me) a Umax. Early 1990s. I got great use out of that computer. Next one was one of the 27" iMacs with a large screen that also had the computer in it. That took me down the road a good distance, again no real problems. Then a MacBook Pro which I dropped on concrete and the screen cracked and didn't work properly. Now I have a Mac mini, I just turned it around since the switch and all the plugs are on the back. I expect to get some years out of it. 

 

One of the notable differences between PC and Mac is that there are far more PCs in use and far more viruses/hackers etc. targeting them. I've never had a virus or a hacked computer (knock on wood). That's in essentially 33+ years of using Macs. I have worked a few jobs that had both computers. All the work computers at Kinko's were PC except the one for the graphic design department, which is where I worked, and a row of Macs and PCs in the rental computer area. One day, all the PCs were infected and the local anti-virus wizard came in and spent all day cleaning them up and installing anti-virus software. 

 

There's more than one side to the endless Mac vs PC debate. In the end it's meaningless, bottom line is use what works for you. 

 

And, to stay on topic. I don't have any Firewire hardware, never had much and flipped out of it early on before the value plummeted. I do still have a couple of Thunderbolt 2 drives, a Thunderbolt 2 to USB 3.1 adapter runs fine on the mini.