Midi switcher/program changes gadget for quick changes onstage live

[kpl1228]

What do you all suggest for bar/club gigs? No software/tablet/laptops: just controlling a Roland RD-2000 and a MOTIF XF7.

Some hardware console unit preferred: I can do the switching with the Roland (I think) but I'd like a standalone unit.....the switching on the Roland befuddles me as a midi controller liive.

I'm thinking I select the song: initial program changes magically happen. thanks

 

 

[ABECK]

Maybe something like this:

 

http://www.musictechnologiesgroup.com/midipatch.htm

 

I'm not familiar with it, but I seem to remember Tony Banks using something similar back in the 90s.  Not sure if these are even available anymore.

 

[JamPro]

This sorta seems like a "coals to Newcastle" question.  You have an RD-2000; a very capable midi controller.

 

I can understand feeling confused about how to use the RD-2000 in this way.  What you are suggesting is indeed pretty complex.  And yet those same complexities will exist if/when you get a standalone unit.  I caution that the standalone unit you seek may also be confusing to use.  And instead of dealing with two devices, with a standalone unit, you will be dealing with three devices - an increase in the complexity.

 

How many unique "songs" do you need to set up for your gigs?

[kanefsky]

 

 

 

+

 

 

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/AKAI-Professional-LPD8-Controller-Responsive/dp/B0BF9MN8R2

https://www.amazon.com/CAMOLA-MIDI-Host-Interface-Converter/dp/B08MZY59B7

[AnotherScott]

16 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

No software/tablet/laptops: just controlling a Roland RD-2000 and a MOTIF XF7.

Some hardware console unit preferred: I can do the switching with the Roland (I think) but I'd like a standalone unit.....the switching on the Roland befuddles me as a midi controller liive.

I'm thinking I select the song: initial program changes magically happen

 

An app on an iPad (or even your smartphone) would probably be the best approach, in terms of the combination of price, size, functionality, ease of use in live performance.

[Delaware Dave]

Learn how to use your midi capable  keyboards correctly, they send program changes rather than adding another gadget to your setup.  On my kurz i press one button and it changes programs on three keyboards instantaneously.

[wineandkeyz]

17 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

What do you all suggest for bar/club gigs? No software/tablet/laptops: just controlling a Roland RD-2000 and a MOTIF XF7.

Some hardware console unit preferred: I can do the switching with the Roland (I think) but I'd like a standalone unit.....the switching on the Roland befuddles me as a midi controller liive.

I'm thinking I select the song: initial program changes magically happen. thanks

 

 

 

I don't know why you'd want to complicate your rig by adding another device. I'm not familiar with the RD-2000, but you could easily use Master mode on your XF7 to send patch changes to the RD-2000. That's what I do with my Yamaha S70XS.

[ABECK]

15 hours ago, JamPro said:

What you are suggesting is indeed pretty complex.  And yet those same complexities will exist if/when you get a standalone unit.  I caution that the standalone unit you seek may also be confusing to use.  And instead of dealing with two devices, with a standalone unit, you will be dealing with three devices - an increase in the complexity.

 

💯  This

[AnotherScott]

Keeping in mind that the goal is this:

 

20 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

I'm thinking I select the song: initial program changes magically happen.

 

I'd say, re:

 

18 hours ago, JamPro said:

What you are suggesting is indeed pretty complex.  And yet those same complexities will exist if/when you get a standalone unit.  I caution that the standalone unit you seek may also be confusing to use.  And instead of dealing with two devices, with a standalone unit, you will be dealing with three devices - an increase in the complexity.

 

that while I agree that there is a new additional complexity in integrating 3 devices rather than 2, the goal itself isn't so complex, and all told, I think may be less confusing if done externally. e.g. by an app as I suggested. Because, re:

 

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

Learn how to use your midi capable  keyboards correctly, they send program changes rather than adding another gadget to your setup.  On my kurz i press one button and it changes programs on three keyboards instantaneously.

2 hours ago, wineandkeyz said:

I don't know why you'd want to complicate your rig by adding another device. I'm not familiar with the RD-2000, but you could easily use Master mode on your XF7 to send patch changes to the RD-2000. That's what I do with my Yamaha S70XS.

 

yes, it is absolutely true that the Kurz, Yamaha, and Roland can all handle sending Program Changes to another board when you select a patch (in the board's appropriate mode). But an app (Set List Maker, Camelot Pro, etc.,) while adding the complexity of integrating an additional device and something with its own learning curve, will IMO ultimately provide something that will serve the goal more easily overall, because once you make your song entries (with Program Changes) in the app, that list of songs is generally easily scrollable, searchable, sortable, re-orderable (i.e. for set lists), giving you additional flexibility and ease of use compared to storing those same song entries (with their Program Changes) inside a board's Multis/Setups/Favorites/Masters/Scenes etc., where searching, sorting/re-ordering is likely to be more complicated and time consuming.

 

For example, think about what happens if the band wants to fill a request on the fly. How easily and quickly can you find "Living on a Prayer" (or however you truncated that title) on an XF7, S70XS, RD2000, or Kurz? Or the bandleader sends you a set of 20 songs that you will need to move through in order, with minimal time between songs. How easily and quickly can you (in advance of the gig) find your 20 patches and put them in sequential order?

 

Of course, this also depends on the kind of band it is, and the kind of repertoire. For example, if you're always playing the same songs in the same order, or if your total song list isn't too big, or if you largely use the same patches over and over again for a wide variety of songs, then the advantages I listed are less relevant. And there are some boards that provide above average searching/re-ordering capabilities on-board (like Kronos/Nautilus, Fantom/Fantom-0), but I don't think that applies to the boards at hand. (Though in some case, there may be a computer-based editor which at least provides better advance-of-gig abilities to move patches around if need be.)

[kanefsky]

I got the Akai LPD8 (that I pictured and linked to above) recently and I'm loving how drop-dead simple it is to send program changes with it.  Right out of the box without configuring anything it will send 32 different program changes (four banks of eight) by tapping the pads.

 

By default the pad LEDs all light up according to which bank you're on, but with their app it's trivially easy to change the LED colors to whatever you want for each button in each bank (along with many other customizations).  You also have the knobs which send CCs and the ability to send CCs or notes using the pads, but you could ignore all of that and it's an extremely useful and very inexpensive device just for sending program changes with almost zero attention or effort.

 

To use it with a standalone keyboard you'd just have to get an additional small box to convert the USB MIDI connection to 5-pin DIN (which I also pictured and linked to above).  I looked for something similar with DIN or 3.5mm MIDI, but the closest thing I found doesn't look like it's quite as easy to use or configurable (e.g. LED colors):  https://www.amazon.com/Artesia-Xjam-MIDI-Performance-Controller/dp/B0B4K8FVBN

[obxa]

 

I do what Kanefsky suggested: with my organ rig hooked up to hardware module and that  Doremidi box,   or Mainstage.  Except with this Behringer X-touch as controller.  Can be programmed to do anything- patch changes, mod wheel, volumes, etc.   Korg Nano is also a cheap option, and there is also a 16 pad version of that Akai he mentioned.

 

But as also suggested, I'd open the manual on your Roland or Yamaha  first.   That said,  I know you said no tablets- If I just need effortless automated  program changes,  I just embed them in my charts or set list with Forscore and Bluetooth Midi.  Be it bar band or pit band. 

[kpl1228]

Thanks all. OP Here.

I am warming to the idea of a tablet for this purpose.....after all, a gadget is a gadget. Not Apple though. (Hopefully I didn't just open up another can of worms with that statement!)

[CEB]

I don’t know. The best gadget is a tablet but you don’t want a tablet.  

[AnotherScott]

I took that "no software/tablet/laptops" part to mean that the rig did not include these things (i.e. so there would be no need to control these things, only hardware needed to be controlled). Though yes, the post did go on to say that a hardware (as opposed to software) based solution was preferred... but that didn't necessarily rule out the software alternative. So that was the context of my suggestion. 

 

6 minutes ago, kpl1228 said:

Thanks all. OP Here.

I am warming to the idea of a tablet for this purpose.....after all, a gadget is a gadget. Not Apple though. (Hopefully I didn't just open up another can of worms with that statement!)

 

Yup, a tablet is just a gadget, with a better screen. 😉 While most iPad/iPhone apps are Apple-only, Set List Maker runs on Android as well as Apple devices. There may well be other Android possibilities as well. Or if you go with a Windows tablet, Camelot Pro is available there, as well as others. And if you're using these things just for sending MIDI (no real-time audio involved), you don't have to worry about the latency issues that people sometimes mention.

[wineandkeyz]

41 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

For example, think about what happens if the band wants to fill a request on the fly. How easily and quickly can you find "Living on a Prayer" (or however you truncated that title) on an XF7, S70XS, RD2000, or Kurz? Or the bandleader sends you a set of 20 songs that you will need to move through in order, with minimal time between songs. How easily and quickly can you (in advance of the gig) find your 20 patches and put them in sequential order?

 

I don't worry about putting my patches in set list order. For my main band, we play often enough that I've memorized the Master mode bank and patch numbers for every song, so it's quick and easy to switch gears on a moment's notice. For every band, though, I use a spreadsheet on my iPad that lists each song with its bank and patch numbers. If a band gives me a set list, I sort the spreadsheet accordingly; if I know the band likes to call songs on the fly, I leave the list sorted alphabetically so I can quickly scroll through the list.

[AnotherScott]

19 hours ago, wineandkeyz said:

 

I don't worry about putting my patches in set list order. For my main band, we play often enough that I've memorized the Master mode bank and patch numbers for every song, so it's quick and easy to switch gears on a moment's notice. For every band, though, I use a spreadsheet on my iPad that lists each song with its bank and patch numbers. If a band gives me a set list, I sort the spreadsheet accordingly; if I know the band likes to call songs on the fly, I leave the list sorted alphabetically so I can quickly scroll through the list.

 

That's another solution... but even apart from any need for memorization, you still had to add another device (the tablet) to create a system that worked smoothly for you for some of your situations... what's in the board alone was not sufficient.

 

Now to take this a step further: Okay, you've got a sortable/searchable/re-orderable spreadsheet of song titles on your iPad. That allows you to find the song, and then hit the buttons on the keyboard that will call up the sounds for that song. Now imagine, on that same iPad, instead of typing your song names, bank numbers, and patch numbers into a spreadsheet, you instead typed your song names, bank numbers, and patch numbers into an app like Set List Maker. There's automatically an alphabetical and searchable list, and the ability to put the songs in any order you want. The big difference is...

 

Spreadsheet method: you locate the song on the screen, then manually navigate to the patch on the keyboard (in the OP's case, navigate to the patches on each of the two keyboards, or else additional data entry would have to be done to enter the patch recall commands for the second keyboard into the first keyboard).

 

SLM method: you locate the song on the screen, and tap on it... done. No need to then manually navigate to the patch on a keyboard (or two). 

 

You've already got the iPad. Having the patches automatically rather than manually called up for each song only requires using a different app, and connecting the board(s). (Either hard wired-or bluetooth, which is plenty fast enough for MIDI Program Changes).

[Stokely]

Never had anything, just always did it by hand on (up to) two keyboards.  I think if I was willing to bring out more than two, that would be too hard to do.  I see no future where I will do that though, so it's a moot question

These days I only bring one keyboard, but even with two, one tends to have very few patches so it's very easy to change (e.g. SK Pro, for which I only really used a couple combi patches and 75% of the time it was just there to play organ).

I get a set list a day or so before gigs usually and if I need to I'll move patches closer together.  Say we are doing Don't You Forget About Me and Don't Change together--I sing both of them and start off from bar 1 playing, so there's little time to spend hunting down patches.   I'd have them one patch apart ideally.

I don't worry about requests.  No request we'd take would start with keyboards, and frankly we'd just give ourselves enough time to pull everything up.   For our regular sets though we do try to minimize down time.

[CEB]

It depends on the gig. In my 2013-2022 Pop gigs some songs called for multiple combi changes in the same tune.  Other gigs I just need a organ and a stage piano … or just one of those.  

[cassdad]

Well, now that the concept of using a tablet has been broached, let me just throw in how I do it:  Using forScore on my iPad, I simply add any needed MIDI messages (especially Program Changes) with each song.  Thus, when I call up any song, it immediately sends out my desired MIDI messages to the instruments I’m using.  Really quite simple.  Add that I also use the forScore “Set Lists” capability, and I’m always the 1st guy ready for whatever the next tune is!

[ABECK]

52 minutes ago, Stokely said:

These days I only bring one keyboard, but even with two, one tends to have very few patches so it's very easy to change (e.g. SK Pro, for which I only really used a couple combi patches and 75% of the time it was just there to play organ).
 

My life gets a lot easier when I can bring my DMC/Gemini and dedicate it to only organ.  Then I'm just toggling between different EP/AP and synth patches on my main board.

[Tusker]

On 8/29/2023 at 3:33 PM, kpl1228 said:

What do you all suggest for bar/club gigs? No software/tablet/laptops: just controlling a Roland RD-2000 and a MOTIF XF7.

Some hardware console unit preferred: I can do the switching with the Roland (I think) but I'd like a standalone unit.....the switching on the Roland befuddles me as a midi controller liive.

I'm thinking I select the song: initial program changes magically happen. thanks

 

 

 

I am going to echo wineandkeys here and say that master mode on your XF7 is the easiest way to do it once you know how. Frankly, it's brilliant and you already have it.    

 

 

Here's a video. Hope it helps:

 

 

 

[obxa]

2 hours ago, cassdad said:

Thus, when I call up any song, it immediately sends out my desired MIDI messages to the instruments I’m using.  Really quite simple.  Add that I also use the forScore “Set Lists” capability, and I’m always the 1st guy ready for whatever the next tune is!

Exactly.   In Forscore besides having songs and blank generic place holders call up patches on page turns between songs,  I also make frequent use of  Forscore midi hot buttons within the chart/score above sections or measures where different patches (or levels)  are needed.  Takes a bit of pre-programming, but on pit gigs where I'm changing things like string articulations between sections,  it's great to just touch the score and go.  Plus you can store all your midi preset calls to use in other songs.   

 

Forscore really upped the game for this with all kinds of midi data (and  multiple channels) besides just program change.   As Another Scott mentioned, things like SLM  or Igigbook can do similar.    

 

 

I use  Blutooth Midi  to control Mainstage  ( BT Macbook Air) and my Nord (via a BT adaptor on it's 5 pin). I'm about to add another BT  adaptor to my Numa Piano to change it's piano sounds too.  Nord or Numa sadly don't have midi- thru.     A midi splitter with a BT adaptor on its input also works but gets a little messy.

[Jim Alfredson]

On 8/30/2023 at 12:20 PM, obxa said:

 If I just need effortless automated  program changes,  I just embed them in my charts or set list with Forscore and Bluetooth Midi.  Be it bar band or pit band. 

Wait… forScore does program changes?!? What hardware do I need to integrate that into my rig?

[stoken6]

23 hours ago, obxa said:

Nord or Numa sadly don't have midi- thru

Which Nord do you have? A Stage’s Extern section can provide some Thru functionality on its MIDI OUT port, including sending a program change when it receives a program change.

 

Cheers, Mike

[cassdad]

9 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Wait… forScore does program changes?!? What hardware do I need to integrate that into my rig?

Yes, sir.  No additional hardware needed.  Just open any song in forScore, then click on the upper middle section (where the name is), go to "MIDI", and hit the + (plus) sign.  You then have the choice of adding just about anything, including Program changes (on whatever MIDI channel or instrument you want) and including Hex Codes (which I have to use for older MIDI devices (like my Beat Buddy), etc.  Try it, it's beautiful, and saves SO much setup time!  Set it up for each song, one time, then never have to do it again.  Call up the song, and everything is instantly ready.  You also know that forScore also plays audio if you wish, right?  (Like backing tracks you make or record, MP3, etc. Again, you tie it to each song.

P.S.  I'm using forScore version 14.0.3, but the prior versions also had it.

[Jim Alfredson]

43 minutes ago, cassdad said:

Yes, sir.  No additional hardware needed.  Just open any song in forScore, then click on the upper middle section (where the name is), go to "MIDI", and hit the + (plus) sign.  You then have the choice of adding just about anything, including Program changes (on whatever MIDI channel or instrument you want) and including Hex Codes (which I have to use for older MIDI devices (like my Beat Buddy), etc.  Try it, it's beautiful, and saves SO much setup time!  Set it up for each song, one time, then never have to do it again.  Call up the song, and everything is instantly ready.  You also know that forScore also plays audio if you wish, right?  (Like backing tracks you make or record, MP3, etc. Again, you tie it to each song.

P.S.  I'm using forScore version 14.0.3, but the prior versions also had it.

That sounds cool but how do I get the MIDI program change data to actually change a program on a hardware synth? I assume I need some kind of MIDI interface for the iPad?

[obxa]

4 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Which Nord do you have? A Stage’s Extern section can provide some Thru functionality on its MIDI OUT port, including sending a program change when it receives a program change.

 

Cheers, Mike

Sorry for late reply. Planes and Trains all day

Stage 2ex both 88 and compact 73- I've used the Ext for ipad/Mainstage, but didn't know it could echo prgr changes???  Can the Stage2??? That would be awesome.   On backline tonight, but  home rig  Friday.  

 

Sorry Jim- Cassad nailed it.  I would also add the ability to call up your midi presets once you've created them is great. Took a bit of trial and error to access all the Nord banks, but this feature has been invaluable.

 

 RE: Hardware:    Camera kit to something like an IO midi interface  or one of those $15 Amazon cheapos with built in cable.

 Or dead simple:    I use the Yamaha BT-01 adaptor, (about $50.00)  plugged in the Nord. Use with your keyboard of choice,   Forscore sends Bluetooth Midi, just have to select the receiving bluetooth device done. 

 

Also regarding the Mp3 tracks,  I end up with a lot of stuff where  performance key is different from the original  Mp3- you can store tranpositions, TUNING!!! and speed changes  on your audio file.   Awesome for rehearsing a show. 

 

Another thing cool thing is Forscore runs fairly well on Mac Silicon.  

[kanefsky]

1 minute ago, Jim Alfredson said:

That sounds cool but how do I get the MIDI program change data to actually change a program on a hardware synth? I assume I need some kind of MIDI interface for the iPad?

 

If it's a newer iPad with USB-C then you just get the appropriate USB cable and connect the keyboard to the iPad.  If it's an older iPad with Lightning then you'll need a USB cable plus the Apple Camera Connection Kit (a dongle that plugs into the Lightning port on one end and has a USB port on the other end).

 

If the keyboard supports Bluetooth MIDI then you can also connect them wirelessly that way.  If the keyboard doesn't have built-in Bluetooth MIDI but it has 5-pin DIN connectors then you can add it using something like the CME WIDI Master.

[Jim Alfredson]

I use forScore for my lyrics and performance notes for the Pink Floyd tribute. So all I need is a USB-C to USB-B cable to connect to my Kurzweil and I can program forScore to send program change? I assume it will receive them as well?

[kanefsky]

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

I use forScore for my lyrics and performance notes for the Pink Floyd tribute. So all I need is a USB-C to USB-B cable to connect to my Kurzweil and I can program forScore to send program change? I assume it will receive them as well?

 

That should work.  Considering all you need is an inexpensive cable, it's certainly worth a try:  https://kurzweil.com/2021/04/13/selecting-programs-via-midi/

 

I like these cables a lot:  https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Printer-USB-C-Black/dp/B00VKSF39O