OT - Vitamin supplements: I don't get the amounts

[Anderton]

3 hours ago, analogika said:

I was talking about vitamins, specifically. Zinc is not a vitamin. I tend to cramp more easily as I get older, and my doctor recommended Magnesium. That works. But not the regular supermarket stuff. 

But that's what I'm saying: You had a diagnosed deficiency. So did I. 

 

Obviously I agree with your viewpoint, I'm saying the best thing to do is go to a doctor and find out what's going on. That's the only way to diagnose a deficiency. I take magnesium as well, but then again, I didn't need a diagnosis to know my legs were cramping. Taking over-the-counter magnesium was sufficient to solve the issue. 

 

Although minerals aren't vitamins, multi-vitamin supplements (which is what I thought Bill5 was talking about) typically include minerals.

 

 

[bill5]

Yep, "vitamin supplements" almost always include some minerals too. 

[Anderton]

So just to add more confusion...a couple links.

 

This one from the JAMA Cardiology Network is a study that says Vitamin D has no beneficial effects on cardiovascular health. This one from the British Medical Journal says it might, and although the differences are small, it might be worth checking out the effects in people taking drugs for prevention or treatment of cardiovascular disease.

 

This one from the Mayo Clinic talks about the benefits of vitamin D for specific indicated issues, but also suggests that long-term vitamin D supplementation reduces the risk of multiple sclerosis (!), can slow bone mineral loss, and helps prevent osteoporosis.

 

Bottom line: who knows? I can just see a conversation 50 years from now..."Yes, Bobby, as incredible as it sounds, back in 2023 doctors used knives to cut into people! They hadn't discovered the full power of synthesized audio waveforms yet. At that time, synthesized audio waveforms were simply considered as toys for musicians."

 

 

[bill5]

Yeah it's complex to be sure. What I'm finding are studies which are similar, saying supplements aren't shown to help with heart disease or cancer etc...but that doesn't mean they have no health benefit.

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Anderton said:

So just to add more confusion...a couple links.

 

This one from the JAMA Cardiology Network is a study that says Vitamin D has no beneficial effects on cardiovascular health. This one from the British Medical Journal says it might, and although the differences are small, it might be worth checking out the effects in people taking drugs for prevention or treatment of cardiovascular disease.

 

This one from the Mayo Clinic talks about the benefits of vitamin D for specific indicated issues, but also suggests that long-term vitamin D supplementation reduces the risk of multiple sclerosis (!), can slow bone mineral loss, and helps prevent osteoporosis.

 

Bottom line: who knows? I can just see a conversation 50 years from now..."Yes, Bobby, as incredible as it sounds, back in 2023 doctors used knives to cut into people! They hadn't discovered the full power of synthesized audio waveforms yet. At that time, synthesized audio waveforms were simply considered as toys for musicians."

 

 

To snargle up any confusification into total chaos... "The major source of our body's vitamin D comes from our own production in the skin. This requires the ultraviolet rays from sunlight to form vitamin D3; both the liver and the kidneys are needed to then create the active form of vitamin D." Quoted from: https://www.uclahealth.org/news/ask-the-doctors-round-sun-exposure-vital-to-vitamin-d-production#:~:text=The major source of our,active form of vitamin D.

 

To further cause disruption, there is huge genetic variety in the human race. We may or may not inherit various aspects of our physical condition from our parents or grandparents, siblings are often quite different in profound ways and this is to say nothing of your neighbors and friends. 

 

It's hard to say "who needs what when and how much", let alone that it could change over the lifespan of that particular person. 

 

So much for any sort of factual definition resulting from "studies" that require human participation. They may have established a set of facts that define most but not all of the particular subject group that they "studied" but in the context of 6 billion people it's pretty silly, no? 🤪

 

All that said, I do take supplements myself and find I feel better overall than if I don't take them (I've done both to learn more about my own reality). 

I'm not telling anybody else what to do or not do, just pointing out how difficult it is to establish any sort of consistent facts regardless of the "science". Diversity alone makes it impossible to accurately evaluate the efficacy of vitamins or minerals. 

 

Maybe we need to eat more frogs or cabbages?

[Notes_Norton]

I think it's a matter of choice, and like most things, moderation is probably the key.

 

I'm not a medical pro, this is just what I've read, not medical advice.

 

People get less vitamin D because we don't want to expose ourselves to a lot of UV radiation, it can cause cancer. But vitamin D is fat-soluble, so you can OD on it (A D E and K). Most water-soluble vitamins just make your urine more expensive if you take too much.

 

Some minerals you can also OD on. But some trace minerals we need are no longer in our food because the plants don't need them and industrialized farming only give the crops what the plant needs, not what the humans need.

 

I've read that vitamins are a waste of money. But if wasting money is buying something you don't need, so are doughnuts, cigarettes, video games, the newest iPhone, more than a few guitars, and a zillion other things.

 

I take some supplements to give me what I require because I don't eat right. I've been a pro since the late 1960s, and I've never called in sick or missed a gig. And since 1985, I gig for senior citizens.  I catch a mild cold (one day sneezing and one day coughing) about every 15 years. My doc says my heart and circulatory system is that of a person 59 years younger than me. She calls me an easy patient and only wants to see me once per year. And I was a sickly child.

 

Is it the vitamins? Doing what I love to do to make a living? Genetics? Good luck? Who knows? But I'm not going to change what I'm doing, and that includes a few supplements.

 

Notes ♫

[SamuelBLupowitz]

My doctor put me on Vitamin D a little over a year ago after noticing my levels were extremely low. She added the caveat: "the medical community has no idea what anyone's vitamin D should like like, or when we should check on it, or where it should actually be. I could tell you if you were a post menopausal Caucasian woman how much higher yours should be. But you're not, so I'm going to have you take this much and we'll check again in a year." She then told me a very funny story which I will do my best to paraphrase here:

 

"Before Covid, Vitamin D was the new, trendy thing that medical researchers were into. I know of a doctor -- probably from some cold, miserable, northeastern industrial town -- who actually got research funding to go live in a beach community for two years and use surfers as a baseline for the extremes of how much vitamin D a person should have. They figured, they're out in the sun all the time, that should tell us something. But the levels were STILL all over the place." So it established nothing, other than that if you're good enough at writing grant proposals, you can move to a beach community for two years on an institutional dime.  

[Markay]

Interesting topic. I get a bloods MBA plus extras done every 6 months, roughly January and July (winter down under). So last January my Doc sends me off for skin cancer scan and get some pre cancer squamous cells burnt off both ears. Catch a few less rays to let that heal. July test, your vitamin D is low, start taking a daily or weekly dose. I do, mostly. Now the sun is heading back this way, I get more sun with my morning coffee.

 

I still take the vitamin D when I remember, safe in the knowledge, I think, that the body absorbs what it needs and pisses away the excess. No chance of od'ing on Vitamin D then.

 

And to be very clear, my Doc did NOT say it would reduce my risk of cancer or heart disease. As for cognitive decline she said said the impact of the '70s is irreversible, get outta here boomer.

[analogika]

On 8/29/2023 at 12:35 AM, bill5 said:

ah, no. But again it's not as simple as that, or as simple as saying "vitamins give you everything you need" either. Some vitamins, but not all, have been proven can be successfully obtained via supplements, such as Vitamin C. 

Yes, but if you’re eating normally, changes are very high that whatever supplemental vitamin C you’re taking will just be pissed out, anyway. 
 

Unless specifically medically indicated, vitamin supplements are a multibillion dollar scam. 

[KuruPrionz]

6 hours ago, analogika said:

Yes, but if you’re eating normally, changes are very high that whatever supplemental vitamin C you’re taking will just be pissed out, anyway. 
 

Unless specifically medically indicated, vitamin supplements are a multibillion dollar scam. 

"Eating normally" today means you own an organic farm and never buy any food at grocery stores. 

Most edible plants are grown using fertilizers that make them grow bigger and faster. Edible plants receive multiple applications of various pesticides, depending in the current pest infestation in specific areas. Some of that stuff cannot be washed off, it's part of the plant structure. We feed all sorts of "interesting factory swill" to the animals we slaughter and consume. Even organic farmers have problems with wind blowing when their neighbors are spraying their crops. 

None of this is "normal" and that is to say nothing of abominations like store bought cookies, crackers, stuff that is grown in other countries without strict enforcement of chemicals etc. 

Immune systems are weakened, subtle allergies are infiltrating many and cancer rates (just for one) are very high in the USA, where growing food is no longer "a part of life" but a part of profitable production.

American food suppliers are a multi-trillion dollar scam. Ponder that for a bit. 

[analogika]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

"Eating normally" today means you own an organic farm and never buy any food at grocery stores. 

 

No. "Eating normally" means eating a mix of vegetables, fruit, meat, and grain-based products. 

Most of the people I know do not own organic farms, and only two that I know of have Vitamin D deficiency in winter — which is not fixed by supermarket supplements. We all eat veggies and fruits grown on industrial plantations, mostly. And chips, cookies, and other snacks, of course. 

Granted, this is Europe, so we're apparently just not getting the level of sewage-grade industrial sludge that y'all seem to be eating, judging from your comments. 

[KuruPrionz]

1 minute ago, analogika said:

 

No. "Eating normally" means eating a mix of vegetables, fruit, meat, and grain-based products. 

Most of the people I know do not own organic farms, and only two that I know of have Vitamin D deficiency in winter — which is not fixed by supermarket supplements. We all eat veggies and fruits grown on industrial plantations, mostly. And chips, cookies, and other snacks, of course. 

Granted, this is Europe, so we're apparently just not getting the level of sewage-grade industrial sludge that y'all seem to be eating, judging from your comments. 

Stats show that Germany does have a fairly high cancer rate but not as high as the US. 

I don't know what your laws are regarding pesticides, probably a bit more restrictive than US. 

Europe is known for having superior public transit systems, we are lacking in that regard so use much more petroleum products to travel - and generate more air pollution. Just like everybody, we must breathe. Fortunately, Bellingham has superior air flow, I'm from Fresno CA and the air was not clean there, nor was the water. 

 

Yes, there are many differences. I've never disputed that. 

 

You left out nuts, nuts are essentially seeds as are grains but they are also different from grains. 

I consume a variety similar to what you are posting, not as much grain. I buy organic as available. 

Some prices on organic foods are insane. If I lived out in the country I'd probably have a truck garden and raise a critter or two. 

 

The statement I linked above from UCLA Health is truth, Vitamin D is primarily synthesized in humans from sunlight. Which is why many find themselves low on it in winter when it is dark. Best to abstain from drinking alcohol during those times and only moderately during times of sunshine. 

[Anderton]

38 minutes ago, analogika said:

Granted, this is Europe, so we're apparently just not getting the level of sewage-grade industrial sludge that y'all seem to be eating, judging from your comments. 

 

At least not yet...

[Notes_Norton]

I have read studies that due to factory farming methods, the food today isn't as nutritious as it once was and you can't get everything you need from your diet.

 

And I've also read you can get everything you need from a balanced diet.

 

Every study seems to have its own agenda. Many stories are nothing more than advertisements in disguise. How are we to know the truth?

 

I don't eat a balanced diet. Everyone in my family except me is over 300 pounds. If I ate the number of servings from all the food groups as recommended, I'd be obese, and that's not very healthy. I'm 180 plus or minus a pound or two. My family is cursed with extremely slow metabolism. But I guess if a famine occurs, it'd be a blessing instead of a curse.

 

I prefer to err on the side of caution. Since there seems to be no harmful side effect from taking supplements in moderation, I see no downside. What I pay is less than having coffee at Starbucks.

 

And as they say "the proof is in the pudding". I'm much healthier than most people my age, and haven't called in sick since I went pro in the 1960s. Not even once.

 

I suppose, there is no right answer for everybody. Do what you think is right for you. If it's a waste of money, so what? Some say going to Starbucks, buying designer clothes, driving an expensive car, playing a top-tier guitar, or plenty of other things are also a waste of money. If it makes you happy and doesn't harm you, it's a good thing.

 

Notes ♫

 

 

[bill5]

18 hours ago, analogika said:

Yes, but if you’re eating normally, changes are very high that whatever supplemental vitamin C you’re taking will just be pissed out, anyway. 

You clarified that you meant "eating healthy" vs "normally," which I suspect isn't all that healthy  at least not healthy enough that vitamins have no benefit/potential benefit. A great many people don't eat healthy enough to get all the vitamins they need, so dismissing vitamins as a scam simply isn't accurate. How much good they do however is debatable...

[K K]

Ask Ray Kurzweil...