Waves goes full subscription model - Creative Access

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Subscription aside, I don't believe I've ever paid for a new version of a plugin if it was just for fixes related to OS changes.   If a plugin changes versions and adds a ton of functionality, then maybe--but even then I'm not sure I have.  I have too many plugins from a lot of companies so I'd have run into this for sure--when I jumped from High Sierra to Monterey, I had to download new versions of most of my plugins.  Not one of them charged me for it.

That is the main reason I've never used Waves.   That's borderline fraudulent to have this paid WUP considering it's not industry standard (though I suppose most people know about it up front I hope.)   People get excited by their big Invicta watch 95% discounts and don't realize they'll need to pay later.  Subscription will be a 2nd main reason!  

With Waves I simply had to pay the WUP because my video card was not supported in the current Waves version (too old)  and none of their plugins would visualize at all.  Just a blank box on the screen until I installed the newest version.  Others needed it for Apple Silicon, M1 change with new machine. 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Franz Schiller said:

Yeah that blows. Though like a lot of you fellas, I only use 2, but they're pretty unique. If I can replace them, I can go totally Waves free.

 

Do any of you gents know of a non-Waves plugin that's similar to Vocal Rider? 

https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-autogain-pro/

 

https://www.tbproaudio.de/products/gainrider

 

Free?

https://www.waproduction.com/plugins/view/outlaw-lite

 https://plugins4free.com/plugin/3617/

 

Demo:

https://impactsoundworks.com/product/peak-rider-2-demo/

[zephonic]

I got screwed by WUP a few years ago. I had a bunch of V9 plugins working perfectly fine on my old computer, until the purchase of a V11 plugin disabled all of them. Only way to get them working again was to update for mucho $$$.

 

The more I think about it, the more this latest move pisses me off.

[Anderton]

My take on subscriptions is that they're oriented toward people getting started. If you've been doing recording for a while, you already have a selection of a la carte plugins that you've winnowed down over the years. 

 

Those getting started would, I think, be more likely to opt for the convenience of something where they get new plugins from time to time and don't have to worry about compatibility issues when computer OSes change.

 

It seems companies that are most successful with subscriptions also offer some kind of perpetual license (e.g., PreSonus Sphere). I think the simplest solution is this kind of situation is to offer something like a 6-pack or 12-pack subscription - you choose the 6 or 12 plugins you use, and subscribe to those.

[Jonathan Hughes]

For those who refuse any kind of subscriptions, I think your time may be running out (assuming you're dependent on a piece of software you currently use), as more and more companies are moving towards them. I don't currently subscribe to any music software subscriptions, and I stopped using Waves plugins a few years ago when I got tired of dealing with the moving target that is WUP, but at some point, something I depend on is going to go subscription only and I'll have no choice. I don't make my living from using plugins, but creating and recording music is a huge part of my life, and being able to do things the way I want sometimes requires things beyond the stock Logic plugins (which I do use a lot of). There were a few of Waves Abbey Road plugins that I liked and used a to, but I've gotten by fine since ditching them, and having fewer choices (especially overlapping ones) is generally a positive in many ways, but if Fabfilter or UAD goes subscription only, that will be awful.

 

I'm a graphic designer and I use Adobe's products daily, and my company pays for my subscription to their Creative Cloud service, which is the only way to use the vast majority of their software as of a few years ago. Even before the subscription, I'd still upgrade every year just to stay up on things and to be compatible with the outside world. But in reality, I could easily work on a version of Photoshop that only includes features from 20 years ago. Sure, there are a few things that have been added since then that make some things easier, but for 99% of the photo retouching work I do, I don't need them. 

Music software (and plugins specifically) have gotten into eh same situation. Subscriptions are the only way a lot of companies can make money at this point. Plugins have become so good that in many (probably most) cases, there's no reason to upgrade for new features. How much more accurate can the various models of LA-2As and 1176s and 480Ls get? Can we tell the difference? How many different EQs do we need? I use Fabfilter's Pro-Q, which does some things I can't do in the stock logic plugin, and I use UAD's Pultecs (which I've used since before Logic came with it's own version), and that's enough. I think a lot of people are in the same boat. Why pay hundreds of dollars per year for a lot of stuff (like Waves' nine different EQ plugins (not even counting channel strips and emulations) that are no better/different than what comes with your DAW? 

Waves will certainly deal with a few months of very bad publicity, but I doubt they'll go out of business. There are enough professionals who rely on their stuff who have no choice but to subscribe, and enough other people who don't want to lose compatibility with older products. Add in new users who just want tons of stuff. They may end up with a smaller customer base, but it'll be providing them with a consistent source of income. Hey, maybe this will give them the resources they need to that next year they can release four more EQs to make a baker's dozen!

[KuruPrionz]

4 minutes ago, Jonathan Hughes said:

For those who refuse any kind of subscriptions, I think your time may be running out (assuming you're dependent on a piece of software you currently use), as more and more companies are moving towards them. I don't currently subscribe to any music software subscriptions, and I stopped using Waves plugins a few years ago when I got tired of dealing with the moving target that is WUP, but at some point, something I depend on is going to go subscription only and I'll have no choice. I don't make my living from using plugins, but creating and recording music is a huge part of my life, and being able to do things the way I want sometimes requires things beyond the stock Logic plugins (which I do use a lot of). There were a few of Waves Abbey Road plugins that I liked and used a to, but I've gotten by fine since ditching them, and having fewer choices (especially overlapping ones) is generally a positive in many ways, but if Fabfilter or UAD goes subscription only, that will be awful.

 

I'm a graphic designer and I use Adobe's products daily, and my company pays for my subscription to their Creative Cloud service, which is the only way to use the vast majority of their software as of a few years ago. Even before the subscription, I'd still upgrade every year just to stay up on things and to be compatible with the outside world. But in reality, I could easily work on a version of Photoshop that only includes features from 20 years ago. Sure, there are a few things that have been added since then that make some things easier, but for 99% of the photo retouching work I do, I don't need them. 

Music software (and plugins specifically) have gotten into eh same situation. Subscriptions are the only way a lot of companies can make money at this point. Plugins have become so good that in many (probably most) cases, there's no reason to upgrade for new features. How much more accurate can the various models of LA-2As and 1176s and 480Ls get? Can we tell the difference? How many different EQs do we need? I use Fabfilter's Pro-Q, which does some things I can't do in the stock logic plugin, and I use UAD's Pultecs (which I've used since before Logic came with it's own version), and that's enough. I think a lot of people are in the same boat. Why pay hundreds of dollars per year for a lot of stuff (like Waves' nine different EQ plugins (not even counting channel strips and emulations) that are no better/different than what comes with your DAW? 

Waves will certainly deal with a few months of very bad publicity, but I doubt they'll go out of business. There are enough professionals who rely on their stuff who have no choice but to subscribe, and enough other people who don't want to lose compatibility with older products. Add in new users who just want tons of stuff. They may end up with a smaller customer base, but it'll be providing them with a consistent source of income. Hey, maybe this will give them the resources they need to that next year they can release four more EQs to make a baker's dozen!

Between the plugins that come with Mac OS and the ones that come with Waveform, there are still a couple of plugins that I'd miss - both by Eventide. 

Their Split EQ is more useful to me than any other plugin I've ever tried. I could probably get by without Physion if I had Split EQ but it does simplify mixing to be able to use it. 
I bought both of them, hope Eventide continues to allow purchases. 

I think that's really the smarter way to proceed - offer individual plugins OR a subscription package. As you noted with Waves, I'd never get full value from an Eventide subscription. They make good plugins but I don't need most of them.

 

Photoshop? I started with version 1.07 in 1992 and used full versions up through CS2. I flogged that copy for a long time and when it could no longer work on a newer system I went with Elements 2014. Now I use Elements 2021 and it is certainly more than adequate for almost anything I'll ever do. Much cheaper than a subscription too. 

[Geoff Grace]

I'm of the opposite opinion. I don't think the professional musician community, most of whom experience cycles of feast and famine, can steadily support companies that move to subscription only. We buy gear when we're flush with money and struggle to pay the rent during the lean times.

 

I expect that Waves will therefore find it difficult to turn a profit if they stubbornly stick to a subscription-only model, unless they're mostly supported by hobbyists with steady incomes.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Anderton said:

My take on subscriptions is that they're oriented toward people getting started. If you've been doing recording for a while, you already have a selection of a la carte plugins that you've winnowed down over the years. 

 

Those getting started would, I think, be more likely to opt for the convenience of something where they get new plugins from time to time and don't have to worry about compatibility issues when computer OSes change.

 

It seems companies that are most successful with subscriptions also offer some kind of perpetual license (e.g., PreSonus Sphere). I think the simplest solution is this case is to offer something like a 6-pack or 12-pack subscription - you choose the 6 or 12 plugins you use, and subscribe to those.

Subscriptions I feel make the most sense when the developer is actively producing and offering new content.  Magazines, movies, music, media companies in general have traditionally been successful with subscription models.  Roland Cloud seems more like a media company with their regular releases of patches, samples, sounds, beats, content. 
 

Subscribing to software that has replaced hardware we used to buy as a one time purchase (compressor, eq, delay, etc.) is a harder sell.  The business seems more like renting or leasing virtual machines.  Of course analogue hardware didn’t have to be repaired constantly to keep it functioning - at least not at the pace computers and operating systems evolve.  Waves seems to also have some scheme for sharing channel strip settings and using AI to assist in appropriate settings. 
 

Adobe, Avid, Reason and other software developers that have gone subscription seem more lease-like as well.  But that’s what they had to do.  So here we are. It keeps their software development churning and their stock holders appeased.  

[Jonathan Hughes]

" expect that Waves will therefore find it difficult to turn a profit if they stubbornly stick to a subscription-only model, unless they're mostly supported by hobbyists with steady incomes."

I think most companies are supported by hobbyists with steady incomes. It doesn't matter whether it's guitars, or plugins, or keyboards, or cameras. There are probably only a few professional photographers in any city for each brand of camera (Nikon, Fuji, Canon, Sony, etc.), but those companies survive by selling to hundreds of people in each city who want to have the same stuff as professionals. And between the people who have to subscribe to Waves and those who just want to, I don't think they're in danger of going under. 

[ElmerJFudd]

21 minutes ago, Jonathan Hughes said:

" expect that Waves will therefore find it difficult to turn a profit if they stubbornly stick to a subscription-only model, unless they're mostly supported by hobbyists with steady incomes."

I think most companies are supported by hobbyists with steady incomes. It doesn't matter whether it's guitars, or plugins, or keyboards, or cameras. There are probably only a few professional photographers in any city for each brand of camera (Nikon, Fuji, Canon, Sony, etc.), but those companies survive by selling to hundreds of people in each city who want to have the same stuff as professionals. And between the people who have to subscribe to Waves and those who just want to, I don't think they're in danger of going under. 

Yes, this is quite true. However, Waves and others have to test the market. They may very well find their pricing scheme is too high or not flexible enough for their users.  We shall see. 

[Anderton]

I'm not a fan of subscriptions in general. But comparing subscriptions to what it used to cost to do recording, there's no comparison. With multitrack tape, I "subscribed" for big $$$ to get new reels of tape every few months or even weeks, and "subscribed" to relapping and replacing tape heads. Comparing the cost of hardware to software equivalents clearly comes down on the side of software. I mean, I'm not going to be able to buy a Manley Massive Passive anytime soon, let alone figure out where to put it. Of course, the counter is "I buy software specifically so I don't have to pay the high cost of hardware." 

 

Another factor is that the rate at which computers change is only going to increase. Remember when Windows 10 was going to be "the last Windows operating system?" And for Apple, when they switched from Motorola to PPC, then switched to Intel, then switched to Apple Silicon? Whenever Microsoft or Intel sneezes, the music industry catches the flu.

 

Traditionally, companies make money from introducing new products, not updating older ones. At NAMM, one company whose name you would recognize told me they almost went out of business the year they had to make everything compatible with OS X and Windows going 64-bit at the same time. They couldn't get any income from new products, and existing customers were upset that the existing products weren't updated the instant the new operating systems dropped. I assume the company I spoke to was not unique, and that kind of nightmare scenario makes subscriptions look attractive to companies.

[Anderton]

An article I wrote for Mixonline, The Subscription Kefuffle, concluded with the following. I still think it's true:

 

Like it or not, with a few notable exceptions, subscriptions will continue to proliferate. So…let the games begin! Let’s see which companies give you the most in return for your having faith in their ability to deliver on their promises. The companies that end up being the most successful will be the ones that make you happy you’ve subscribed.

[Franz Schiller]

22 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-autogain-pro/

 

https://www.tbproaudio.de/products/gainrider

 

Free?

https://www.waproduction.com/plugins/view/outlaw-lite

 https://plugins4free.com/plugin/3617/

 

Demo:

https://impactsoundworks.com/product/peak-rider-2-demo/

 

Whoa! Thanks a bunch ElmerJFudd! Much appreciated!

[Stokely]

One thing that subscriptions will do--they'll make me use and appreciate stock plugins more!   Which I should be doing anyway.   The inclination of many is to assume that stock plugins can't do as good a job, and *hey* there's a sale over there on plugins that do that same job!   Granted, there's been a few purchases that I felt were "needed", for example the stock pianos in Logic I simply don't care for, and my 3rd party ones are much better for me.  I still use Vintage Organ and Alchemy a lot though.

As far as fx though?  I'd love to see some blind tests.  For example I really like the sound of Lindell 80, a neve channel strip plugin I bought.  I use it on most tracks, often not even making changes to the default, it just adds something I like.  Logic also has a Neve EQ with overdrive, which I have not really tried.  I wonder if I could pick out which is which if I tried to match settings on various tracks.  The folks at Spitfire did one for reverbs that included Chromaverb (Logic's newest algorithmic verb) and it fared well against some big expensive reverb plugins (and a hardware Bricasti).

There is of course usability preferences.  For example I really dislike Delay Designer in Logic, and much, much prefer Valhalla Delay or Supermassive (free!) for more complex delays.  I do use Logic Tape Delay quite a bit though.   In general, the plugins that Logic have overhauled I like using, the old skeuomorphic ones (Sculpture, Ultrabeat etc) I don't.

Granted, Apple could always go to a subscription model for Logic itself, which would be a kick in the yarbles.

 

[Jim Alfredson]

I haven't used Waves in years. FabFilter, u-he, and very select things from Plug-In Alliance are my go-to. 

Subscriptions are coming for everything, though. It's just the way the industry is going. 

[ElmerJFudd]

30 minutes ago, Stokely said:

One thing that subscriptions will do--they'll make me use and appreciate stock plugins more!   Which I should be doing anyway.   The inclination of many is to assume that stock plugins can't do as good a job, and *hey* there's a sale over there on plugins that do that same job!   Granted, there's been a few purchases that I felt were "needed", for example the stock pianos in Logic I simply don't care for, and my 3rd party ones are much better for me.  I still use Vintage Organ and Alchemy a lot though.

As far as fx though?  I'd love to see some blind tests.  For example I really like the sound of Lindell 80, a neve channel strip plugin I bought.  I use it on most tracks, often not even making changes to the default, it just adds something I like.  Logic also has a Neve EQ with overdrive, which I have not really tried.  I wonder if I could pick out which is which if I tried to match settings on various tracks.  The folks at Spitfire did one for reverbs that included Chromaverb (Logic's newest algorithmic verb) and it fared well against some big expensive reverb plugins (and a hardware Bricasti).

There is of course usability preferences.  For example I really dislike Delay Designer in Logic, and much, much prefer Valhalla Delay or Supermassive (free!) for more complex delays.  I do use Logic Tape Delay quite a bit though.   In general, the plugins that Logic have overhauled I like using, the old skeuomorphic ones (Sculpture, Ultrabeat etc) I don't.

Granted, Apple could always go to a subscription model for Logic itself, which would be a kick in the yarbles.

 

I don’t think Apple would need to do this as the Pro Apps sell hardware.  They force hardware upgrades by making sure specific versions of the pro apps only run on specific operating systems and hardware.  You can buy the hardware, lease the hardware, finance the hardware, etc.  

[johnchop]

This whole kerfuffle has made me re-evaluate my plug-in stable for sure.

 

- The Waves plug-ins I like aren’t all on the basic subscription.
- They all have alternatives

- I can subscribe when and if I need to, and I don’t need to right now.

- I need to make better use of stock plugins, although that’s never a reason for me to buy one DAW over another or one edition over another.

 

Frankly, no processing plug-in has been the difference between “alright” and “great” for me (as an inexperienced mixer). At best, they’ve been helpful shortcuts.

 

[Stokely]

Agreed.  I think an interesting mixing challenge would be all-stock vs all-3rd party.

I know I have a severe weakness for sales.  "90%" off" gets me twitching, even if I don't really need a plugin that plays Aztec death flutes (there was a recent sale on this or something like it) or emulates some ancient analog compressor (Logic already emulates five vintage ones plus their platinum one)

I've been very good though for over a year.  I bought next to nothing last Black Friday season.  I am strongly considering NI's Komplete upgrade if they do a Summer of Sales.   Speaking of subscriptions, they are a big concern in this regard.  A lot of people figure they might go that way.  I'd be pissed, but I'd also be in bad shape without Kontakt, because many of my libraries (e.g. Soniccouture) use the full version.   

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Agreed.  I think an interesting mixing challenge would be all-stock vs all-3rd party.

I know I have a severe weakness for sales.  "90%" off" gets me twitching, even if I don't really need a plugin that plays Aztec death flutes (there was a recent sale on this or something like it) or emulates some ancient analog compressor (Logic already emulates five vintage ones plus their platinum one)

I've been very good though for over a year.  I bought next to nothing last Black Friday season.  I am strongly considering NI's Komplete upgrade if they do a Summer of Sales.   Speaking of subscriptions, they are a big concern in this regard.  A lot of people figure they might go that way.  I'd be pissed, but I'd also be in bad shape without Kontakt, because many of my libraries (e.g. Soniccouture) use the full version.   

One of the many reasons that I chose NI titles that run on Kontakt Player, which is free. It does limit my choices but something's gotta do that - I don't need EVERYTHING!

I need to go through all my plugins and do a purge, I have way too many and mostly don't use them. Just digital clutter. 

I never needed that much stuff when I was using rack gear, a few good processors will serve me well enough. 

[obxa]

This horse has been thoroughly  beaten on all the forums & U-tube channels.  While don’t disagree it’s a crappy move, it won't be the end of Waves either. Their target is now bedroom producers, at the expense of their pro user base.  They apparently got the message- and now are bringing back perpetual licenses.   https://www.waves.com/news/perpetual-waves-licenses-are-back

 

I will say they’re still operating like it’s 2010.  The old statement: “ProTools and Waves are the two pieces of software in every pro-studio” is no longer valid.

 

As mentioned there are so many other options now - with smaller companies offering much better plugs, and a better feeling of customer loyalty.  Like Avid did, Waves had to reconsider, but I don’t care.

 

I got off the $29 treadmill and WUP thing  over the last 2 years.    Found better replacements with Fuse Audio, Black Rooster, Softube, SSL, Analog Obsession,  Air Windows and Plugin Alliance.  Besides Logic’s stock plugs,  I could probably do everything with just PA.     PA does a great subscription model - AND perpetuity.  Though also guilty of silly  constant ”sale” prices, they at least reward the customer.    You get back what you spend in a voucher (immediately if you pay up front). You can buy the plugs you like.  I did that for a year, and zero regrets.

 

 

I had a large investment of Waves stuff and chalk it up that all along it was really just a rental.   Down to maybe 2 Waves ( MV2 comp for VO,  and their NS noise reduction thing). Quite sure I’ll eventually find replacements for those too.  It’s not hard, and there are tons of forum sites that do “Waves replacement” threads.

 

 

I finally had an Epiphany:   that I needed better ideas, not better plugs.    I  now only subscribe to classes/tutorials for a few select music, audio, and VO sites.

[mcgoo]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:55 AM, konaboy said:

i asked customer service what would happen if I bought a subscription, got the upgrades to latest version, and then cancel the sub.  Will they downgrade all my plugins again? I suppose so... we'll see.

 

My take on it is that if you cancel, your plugs you owned before will only work at the latest version you owned. If I'm right, then the answer to your question would be "yes". I'd love to be wrong.

 

This takes me to my hesitation. I'm on vr9 for most of my plugs and I've got a lot of them (Horizon Bundle + some Abbey Road & SSL stuff, etc.). For me, being able to restore an old project and pick up where I left off is a must. If I subscribe & get everything up to vr14, then I'm forced to subscribe forever or have to rebuild a project's mix anytime I restore it. When a client wants to simply update a VO tag on a radio spot, he or she is not going to be happy with a 2 or 3 hr bill when it should only be 1 hr. They've got me by the short & curlies and they know it...

 

edit... wow, just saw their reversal!

[johnchop]

@obxa just saw that policy reversal!

 

Vox populi!

[Stokely]

Holy lack of marketing research, batman.

On one hand, subscription sucks, and it's good that customers talking with their feet can make a difference.   On the other it makes me question their planning and understanding of their own market and customers when they reverse course so quickly.

Not that it matters to me, WUP was the reason I stayed away from Waves in the first place.

[KuruPrionz]

They are now part of my past, I didn't have many anyway...

[ElmerJFudd]

Users received an apology letter from Waves CTO today.  They will reinstate perpetual licenses with WUP and run that side by side with the new subscription.  
 

 

[MPN21]

1 hour ago, johnchop said:

@obxa just saw that policy reversal!

 

Vox populi!

Just as I expected and mentioned the other day.  This reminds me of Paypal backpedaling real quick on their policies recently.  I closed my Paypal account and I felt so liberated!  

  

Back to Waves,  I am not buying any more plugin that allows only one computer activation, either.  Yes, Vox Populi though I do recognize that the "majority" can be wrong as history has shown us. 

 

[Anderton]

46 minutes ago, MPN21 said:

Just as I expected and mentioned the other day. 

 

I really do think the most successful approach for any company will be to offer both subscriptions and perpetual licenses. Different people have different needs.

 

FWIW the pushback for electric cars offering feature subscriptions ("seat warmer option, $29.95/month") is so intense the idea will probably be shelved. 

[mcgoo]

The old & jaded part of me has to wonder if they never really intended to drop the perpetual licenses & upgrades. Perhaps they did things this way just so they could create the sh*tstorm that they did, get a lot of attention and in the process get a LOT of people to upgrade right away. Waves has survived a LONG time as a company that wasn't necessarily the most customer-centric company, so this could've just been a marketing plan. Who knows. I could be full of it, too. 😆

[johnchop]

Waves and Wizards of the Coast competing for JD Power “most harm to customer trust” award this year.

 

I do wish they’d go for licensing more than one machine. If you’re going to limit authorizations, two should be the bare minimum these days, three is just right (for me), five (Arturia) is pretty generous I think.

 

[KuruPrionz]

7 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Users received an apology letter from Waves CTO today.  They will reinstate perpetual licenses with WUP and run that side by side with the new subscription.  
 

 

Here is more text, posted on Instagram today.

"

wavesaudio

 

Dear Waves community, ⁠
⁠
My name is Meir Shashoua, and I’m the CTO and Co-Founder of Waves Audio.⁠
⁠
Over the past few days, many of you have expressed concerns about our decision to discontinue perpetual plugin licenses and our move to an exclusive plugin subscription model. I would like to start by apologizing for the frustration we have caused many of you, our loyal customers. We understand that our move was sudden and disruptive, and did not sufficiently take into consideration your needs, wishes, and preferences. We are genuinely sorry for the distress it has caused. ⁠
⁠
After respectfully listening to your concerns, I want to share with you that we are bringing back the perpetual plugin license model, side-by-side with the new subscriptions. You will again be able to get plugins as perpetual licenses, just as before. ⁠
⁠
In addition, those of you who already own perpetual licenses will once again be able to update your plugins and receive a second license via the Waves Update Plan—again, just as before. This option, too, will be available alongside and independently of the subscription program. ⁠
⁠
We are currently putting all our efforts into making perpetual licenses available to you again, as quickly as possible. In the meantime, you can keep up-to-date on the news page (Link available in our bio) where we will post the latest updates on perpetual license availability.⁠
⁠
I would like you to know that we are committed to you, our users. We listened to your feedback, and we will continue to listen to you. Waves is a company filled with users and creators, just like you, and we are all as passionate about the products as you are. With this in mind, we will strive to find the way to make things right by you, and hopefully regain your trust. ⁠
⁠
Thank you for your feedback and continued support—I wish you all the best, ⁠
⁠
Meir Shashoua⁠
CTO and Co-Founder⁠
Waves"