Weighted controller recommendations 73/76 or 88 key

[Ibarch]

PMT  had several SL boards six months back, upstairs. Although last time I was there they were in the process of moving a lot of stuff around. Maybe they've downsized their displays. Did you go in recently? 

[Paul Woodward]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The TP100 is notoriously unpopular with piano players when given the choice out of all the compact weighted key actions. You can of course play it.  It’s preferable to a synth or organ-like action.  I would choose it over, say… Casio Privia Sxxxx.  On the Crumar Seven it does feel Rhodes like - but I did not enjoy playing “acoustic piano” on the Seven at all regardless of Max Tempia’s wonderful demonstrations.  

I had the Casio PSX1000 when it came out and would happily have played that keybed over the FA06 it replaced and over the YC61 for AP’s. I found it very light and many say the SL is very heavy.

[Paul Woodward]

Just now, Ibarch said:

PMT  had several SL boards six months back, upstairs. Although last time I was there they were in the process of moving a lot of stuff around. Maybe they've downsized their displays. Did you go in recently? 

It’s a good hour from me and both A1 and M62 can get pretty congested so I wouldn’t head there unless I knew they had a board in stock to try. I could ring, but I just went with a store stock check.

[Ibarch]

6 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

I can get if from Scan who have a 14 day return policy, but not sure if that includes actually opening and trying it out.

 

 

Gear4Music have a 30 day return policy, which allows you to open and use boards. Just keep all the packing materials. 

[Paul Woodward]

9 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

 

Gear4Music have a 30 day return policy, which allows you to open and use boards. Just keep all the packing materials. 

Good call, but they have no stock for at least a week or so.

[ElmerJFudd]

4 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I had the Casio PSX1000 when it came out and would happily have played that keybed over the FA06 it replaced and over the YC61 for AP’s. I found it very light and many say the SL is very heavy.

I don’t care for those FA06 keys either. The main reason I don’t own it or the VR09.  Both sound fine, real good even in many cases. I just don’t want to own and play that action.  Same with the Korg Kross and Krome.  But that’s me.   I completely  understand  the appeal of small size, light carry.  

[stoken6]

13 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I can get if from Scan who have a 14 day return policy, but not sure if that includes actually opening and trying it out.

Scan are reputable, I've bought from them before. Check the return policy in detail, but I would expect that if it's in resaleable (i.e. perfect) condition they will accept the return.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Paul Woodward]

5 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Scan are reputable, I've bought from them before. Check the return policy in detail, but I would expect that if it's in resaleable (i.e. perfect) condition they will accept the return.

 

Cheers, Mike.

Spoke to them this morning and I can return within 14 days but I have to pay the shipping costs.

Gear4 music deduct a shipping charge from your refund.

Thomann are £4 more expensive, will take longer to get here, but they give you 30 days and cover return shipping. So that looks like the better option.

[Paul Woodward]

Guy local to me is selling a Kawai MP7 quite cheap (£500). Looks in perfect condition and might be worth getting that for the studio and take the GS out. It’s not much more than a SL88 but I hear Kawai actions are excellent.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 minute ago, Paul Woodward said:

Guy local to me is selling a Kawai MP7 quite cheap (£500). Looks in perfect condition and might be worth getting that for the studio and take the GS out. It’s not much more than a SL88 but I hear Kawai actions are excellent.

Glad to hear he’s local.  Get on it and see how you like it.  Piano-like, yes.  But noticeably different feeling to the Grand Stage.  

[AnotherScott]

I really like the MP7 a lot.

[Paul Woodward]

Well, he is firm at £500 collected and 25 mins away, might be worth trying out. @AnotherScott would you say it was considerably better than an SL88? Although its been suggested its more 'piano like' would it play similar to the RH3?

I realise its quite a change of plan, but would rather pay a bit extra than just a 'so so' controller, but at 23kg would have to be the studio board and the Korg GS would be the one I take gigging...

 

[Paul Woodward]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Glad to hear he’s local.  Get on it and see how you like it.  Piano-like, yes.  But noticeably different feeling to the Grand Stage.  

If its fully weighted/graded, can I ask how it is noticeably different to the RH3?

[AnotherScott]

32 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Well, he is firm at £500 collected and 25 mins away, might be worth trying out.

 

To me, that sounds like a ridiculously good price, but the market where you are may be different.

 

32 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

@AnotherScott would you say it was considerably better than an SL88? Although its been suggested its more 'piano like' would it play similar to the RH3?

 

Certainly better than an SL88 Studio. Probably also better than SL88 Grand. But there's a lot of subjectivity to this, too. What feels better, a Yamaha grand or a Kawai grand? They certainly feel very different from each other, but people won't necessarily agree about which feels better...

 

18 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

If its fully weighted/graded, can I ask how it is noticeably different to the RH3?

 

Picking up from that previous thought, all the designs feel different, but it's hard to put in words. For that matter, not all RH3s feel the same. The early SV1 felt different from the later ones that had "Made in Japan" sticker on the top key (which I think is the one in the Grandstage as well), and I thought it felt different from either of those on the Kronos (maybe it's the aftertouch). Personally, just for feel, I'd probably take the MP7 over any of them. It's on the light side as hammer actions go, which I prefer. But as they say, YMMV.

[Paul Woodward]

Thanks @AnotherScott. At the end of the day, I would be taking the Korg GS to the rehearsals/gigs so I know I would be happy there. So now I guess I am re-evaluating the Mp7 as a board to keep in the studio. In that respect, it has all the feature needed to hook up to my DAW. I believe its about 8/9 years old now, but the GS is a good 4 or 5 years old. The weight won't be an issue there either.

As for the price, it does seem good. I'm invited over for a play in the morning and it also comes with the triple pedal.

[pawelsz]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

If its fully weighted/graded, can I ask how it is noticeably different to the RH3?

 

Picking up from that previous thought, all the designs feel different, but it's hard to put in words. For that matter, not all RH3s feel the same. The early SV1 felt different from the later ones that had "Made in Japan" sticker on the top key (which I think is the one in the Grandstage as well), and I thought it felt different from either of those on the Kronos (maybe it's the aftertouch). Personally, just for feel, I'd probably take the MP7 over any of them. It's on the light side as hammer actions go, which I prefer. But as they say, YMMV.

 

I wonder if Paul meant RH3 from Korg or "RH3" (precisely RH III) from newer Kawai MP7SE to compare with older RH II in MP7.

[Paul Woodward]

16 minutes ago, pawelsz said:

 

I wonder if Paul meant RH3 from Korg or "RH3" (precisely RH III) from newer Kawai MP7SE to compare with older RH II in MP7.

Easy mistake to make, I was referring to the RH3 in the Korg Grandstage which I enjoy playing. I have read about upgrades from MP7 to MP7Se and it seems to lose some features as well as gaining some. As essentially a controller board in the studio, it’s the feel I am primarily interested in, but if I’m spending more than the cost of a controller, might as well be getting some decent sounds too.

impressive that it has 256 note poly and a few features neither the Grandstage or YC61 have and I believe the included triple pedal costs over £100 alone.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

Thanks @AnotherScott. At the end of the day, I would be taking the Korg GS to the rehearsals/gigs so I know I would be happy there. So now I guess I am re-evaluating the Mp7 as a board to keep in the studio. In that respect, it has all the feature needed to hook up to my DAW. I believe its about 8/9 years old now, but the GS is a good 4 or 5 years old. The weight won't be an issue there either.

As for the price, it does seem good. I'm invited over for a play in the morning and it also comes with the triple pedal.

I suspect the MP7 is a nice choice for a piano keyboard under your DAW.  👍

[Paul Woodward]

47 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I suspect the MP7 is a nice choice for a piano keyboard under your DAW.  👍

Indeed, it’s a shame it’s so heavy as it has a lot of functions that would make it a great gigging board. 4 sounds at a time over 4 zones (with huge polyphony), multi effects per zone, amp simulation, tone wheel organs, audio in. Has a lot more settings and features than many modern boards costing a lot more.

[Al Coda]

49 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Indeed, it’s a shame it’s so heavy as it has a lot of functions that would make it a great gigging board. 4 sounds at a time over 4 zones (with huge polyphony), multi effects per zone, amp simulation, tone wheel organs, audio in. Has a lot more settings and features than many modern boards costing a lot more.

 

It has limitations like amp sim in zone 1 only, no C/V for organ, as also only 2 insertFX per zone too.

I won´t comment on the leslie sim at all since we know what HX3 (MAG and UHL) as also Viscount Legend Soul offer.

 

Any Kurzweil is lightyears ahead when it comes to (freely user programmable) insert FX chains.

 

Kawai acoustic piano samples are best and e-pianos are good, but many of the other "bread & butter" sounds are just only fillers.

OTOH,- Kawai makes and offers the BEST weighted hammer triple sensor keyboard actions available.

Build quality and reliability are good too and MP7 / MP11 models look very nice.

 

I hope for a successor (MP7se mk2 ?) offering more DSP power/ more flexibility for FX, fast USB audio (and MIDI) as also a mixer like the Studiologic Numa X offers.

 

 

A.C.

 

 

[stoken6]

15 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Certainly better than an SL88 Studio.

Sorry I'm late to the party (gig last night) but this x1000. The MP7 is much less portable than a Studiologic, but as a studio board/home it would make me very happy.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Paul Woodward]

Well this is a bit embarrassing, never thought to measure the space I have in the studio and didn’t factor in those wooden cheeks. Bloody thing won’t fit in my office space, that’s why I settled with 73 keys in the first place. Still, if anyone is local to Sheffield, there is a cheap MP7 for sale…doh.

[ElmerJFudd]

28 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Well this is a bit embarrassing, never thought to measure the space I have in the studio and didn’t factor in those wooden cheeks. Bloody thing won’t fit in my office space, that’s why I settled with 73 keys in the first place. Still, if anyone is local to Sheffield, there is a cheap MP7 for sale…doh.

Clearly the next step is construction/renovation.  

 

[Paul Woodward]

51 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Clearly the next step is construction/renovation.  

 

Already done mate, new house with studio space needed methinks 🙂

 

[Ibarch]

6 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Well this is a bit embarrassing, never thought to measure the space I have in the studio and didn’t factor in those wooden cheeks. Bloody thing won’t fit in my office space, that’s why I settled with 73 keys in the first place. Still, if anyone is local to Sheffield, there is a cheap MP7 for sale…doh.

 

Nightmare. Does it fit diagonally? 

 

Seriously, what do you think of the MP7? Was close to choosing a Kawai for my gigging keyboard before ultimately choosing the Roland RD-88. 

[Paul Woodward]

4 hours ago, Ibarch said:

 

Nightmare. Does it fit diagonally? 

 

Seriously, what do you think of the MP7? Was close to choosing a Kawai for my gigging keyboard before ultimately choosing the Roland RD-88. 

A friend pointed out the problem so I never got to try it. A few people advised against it in favour of the updates models, but I hear they are excellent boards.

 

[Paul Woodward]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but what are your thoughts on the Studiologic Compact 2 as a ‘throw in a bag’ board to control something with a decent piano sound (in my case a Yamaha YC61). Left the band I was working with as it wasn’t going anywhere. For now I want to leave my stage piano in the studio and keep the lightest setup in case something else comes up. At the same time, I don’t want to spend a lot just for gear to gig with on a casual basis.

I realise there are much better fully weighted options, but wondered if anyone had tried the Numa Compact. It’s only 7kg making a full double board rig with stands just 17kg in total. I think the internal sounds would come in handy at a pinch, but just thinking about it as a controller primarily. I’m not sure the 2x is worth considering based on that. Still got the iPad option via the YC for extra sounds if needed.

For reference, the Roland VR09 is currently my planned ‘cheapo’ second board for the YC61.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but what are your thoughts on the Studiologic Compact 2 as a ‘throw in a bag’ board to control something with a decent piano sound (in my case a Yamaha YC61).

 

For piano, I think the YC61 action is better than the Numa Compact 2/2X action. It's also better than the VR09's action. If you were thinking of the VR09 (meaning 61 keys could be enough), and you're looking to plays some of the YC61's sounds from its own action and some from a second board, it might be better to reverse your approach. That is, you might find that rather than playing the YC's piano sounds from the external board while playing your other YC sound(s) from its own keys, the better option could be to play the YC's piano from its own keys, and use the external board to play the other YC sound(s) you want to be playing. That said, I think the Numa feels better than the Roland, but to me the issue here is that neither feels as good for piano as what you already have on the YC.

 

Tangentially... there are some light, inexpensive, semi-weighted boards that arguably feel better than the Numa... but so much of the lower cost stuff now lack 5-pin MIDI connectors, making them more of a nuisance to use for the kind of thing you're talking about. Some boards can act as USB hosts and will allow you to directly attach these boards that don't have the 5-pin connectors, but while Yamaha supports that in some of their boards, I don't think the YC series can do that.

[Paul Woodward]

43 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

For piano, I think the YC61 action is better than the Numa Compact 2/2X action. It's also better than the VR09's action. If you were thinking of the VR09 (meaning 61 keys could be enough), and you're looking to plays some of the YC61's sounds from its own action and some from a second board, it might be better to reverse your approach. That is, you might find that rather than playing the YC's piano sounds from the external board while playing your other YC sound(s) from its own keys, the better option could be to play the YC's piano from its own keys, and use the external board to play the other YC sound you want to be playing. That said, I think the Numa feels better than the Roland, but to me the issue here is that neither feels as good as for piano as what you already have on the YC.

 

Tangentially... there are some light, inexpensive, semi-weighted boards that arguably feel better than the Numa... but so much of the lower cost stuff now lack 5-pin MIDI connectors, making them more of a nuisance to use for the kind of thing you're talking about. Some boards can act as USB hosts and will allow you to directly attache these boards that don't have the 5-pin connectors, but while Yamaha supports that in some of their boards, I don't think the YC series can do that.

Thanks, I should have been clearer there. The VR09 is currently my ‘throw in a bag’ second board simply because I got it so cheap but I am planning on moving it on. I played the YC from my Korg GS and it was a revelation so I got to thinking that I don’t really need another ‘sound making’ board, I could just play the YC acoustic pianos and EP’s from an external board and the organs, synths etc, from the YC board (effectively using the YC as a sound module. The iPad would just be another source of sounds that the YC can’t do so well. 
Having spotted the Numa compact I thought it would be great to access the full piano range. 61 keys was never going to be enough hence was originally looking for a 73 or 88 weighted controller. 
Only other board that fits the bill is the Studiologic SL73 and that weighs almost 12kg, still not bad, but a bigger (deeper) board as well.

Both are about the same price so it’s a question of compromise. Lighter, smaller, sounds and speakers in the Numa, better keybed in the SL73.

[AnotherScott]

Ah.

 

There are some other light, inexpensive, 88-key semi-weighted boards that have 5-pin MIDI Out, but I don't know whether or not any feel any better than the Numa Compacts.

 

I mentioned the issue of the lack of 5-pin, but if you're wiling to work around that (e.g. with a standalone host adapter, or with the CME bluetooth adapters) that could open up some other options. The Korg Liano comes to mind. I haven't played it (or the Kronos LS that used that same action), but from what I've read, I suspect it feels better than the Numa Compacts. Allowing for USB-only boards also opens up the possibility of some low cost 88 key hammer action boards that weigh about the same or less than the SL73, like the Casio CDP-S110/CDP-S360, Yamaha P45/P125, Korg B2.