What Perhaps Is Forgotten in Analog vs. Digital Debates

[KuruPrionz]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:37 PM, Notes_Norton said:

I'm looking for a right-handed saxophone. The left hand works much harder, and there are a half dozen notes where the right hand isn't needed at all. But the left hand is needed on all the notes but one of the C# notes in the lower but not lowest octave.

 

I played in a band with a left-handed guitarist. He learned lefty, and years later taught himself right-handed. He could play either way.

 

He swore the normal, so-called right-handed guitar was actually the left-handed guitar. After all, he would say, on the standard guitar, the left hand does most of the work, making weird shapes, stretching fingers, doing double-stops, bending strings, and so on, while the right hand just had to pick and strum.

 

So although he learned lefty first and did that for years before he learned the standard guitar, he played better on the standard, because it was his left hand doing all the work.

 

Not being left-handed, I really can't say, but it makes a bit of sense to me.

 

I read that Jimi Hendrix ate and wrote with his right hand. Could it be that he chose the lefty guitar because it's really the right-handed one?

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

I am left handed and my left handed uncle handed me his ukulele when I was 5 or so. He played it "right handed" and handed it to me that way. It felt natural. 

Years later when I took up guitar I started right handed and have always played right handed. I think having my left handed hand on the fretboard is an advantage. 

 

Back on topic, I knew some time ago that I was done with using tube amplifiers for guitar tone. They are naturally heavier than solid state (output transformer for one thing) and I've had problems with tubes dying on stage. That's no fun and one gets tired of bringing 2 amps to otherwise mundane gigs. 

I went with Tech 21 for a while and their Sansamp does sound good, all analog solid state. I went through a few Peavey Transtube amps but only recently figured out how to set them up. Post Gain is not "after gain" it is "analog solid state simulation of a tube output section" and it is incredible. I turn the Post Gain way up now and my amp (Peavey Vypyr VIP 1 with a 10" Peavey Scorpion speaker shoehorned in) not only sounds like a tube amp (some digital amps do sound like tube amps), it FEELS like a tube amp. I'm guessing that there is some absolutely minuscule latency in the digital amps that analog Transtube simply does not have? Whatever it is, I like it. 

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

I'm guessing that there is some absolutely minuscule latency in the digital amps that analog Transtube simply does not have? Whatever it is, I like it. 

At a bare minimum, anything digital has latency from A/D and D/A conversion. At a 44.1 kHz sampling rate, I think it's something like 1.2 ms. 

[KuruPrionz]

41 minutes ago, Anderton said:

At a bare minimum, anything digital has latency from A/D and D/A conversion. At a 44.1 kHz sampling rate, I think it's something like 1.2 ms. 

Right, technically it's virtually "non-existent". Out here in the real world even if I can't really hear it, I feel it. It's not nothing. 

I had the same response to Sansamp, Transtube just sounds better to me but both feel like playing an amp because they are that. 

[dmitch57]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:37 PM, Notes_Norton said:

After all, he would say, on the standard guitar, the left hand does most of the work, making weird shapes, stretching fingers, doing double-stops, bending strings, and so on, while the right hand just had to pick and strum.

I have a theory on this. While it appears that the left hand is doing most of the work for right handed players, actually there is one crucial component of the right hand: the thumb. It has the most complicated motion and musculature of all of the digits. Most right handed players don't use their left thumb at all, though some use it for fretting the low E. But no matter what a right-handed guitarist's right-hand technique is, the right thumb gets a real workout, doing things none of the other fingers do. Imagine using a pick with your non-dominant hand.

The opposable thumb - one key to the ascent of primates in the evolutionary tree.

 

So my theory is, the dominant hand is chosen for the work the thumb has to do. That's also why classical string players use the position they do - no thumb action in the left hand, lots of thumb use with the bow in the right. Unfortunately there was never any allowance for lefties in that world. No left handed violins.

[Notes_Norton]

9 hours ago, dmitch57 said:

No left handed violins.

And no right handed saxophones.

[KuruPrionz]

10 hours ago, dmitch57 said:

I have a theory on this. While it appears that the left hand is doing most of the work for right handed players, actually there is one crucial component of the right hand: the thumb. It has the most complicated motion and musculature of all of the digits. Most right handed players don't use their left thumb at all, though some use it for fretting the low E. But no matter what a right-handed guitarist's right-hand technique is, the right thumb gets a real workout, doing things none of the other fingers do. Imagine using a pick with your non-dominant hand.

The opposable thumb - one key to the ascent of primates in the evolutionary tree.

 

So my theory is, the dominant hand is chosen for the work the thumb has to do. That's also why classical string players use the position they do - no thumb action in the left hand, lots of thumb use with the bow in the right. Unfortunately there was never any allowance for lefties in that world. No left handed violins.

It's a fun theory but humans do not offer enough consistency to establish it as a be-all end-all. As mentioned above, both my left handed uncle and myself play right handed. Steve Morse, Duane Allman, Elvis Costello, Joe Perry, Johnny Winters, Mark Knopfler, Gary Moore, and Billy Corgan are all left handed and play right handed. There are certainly more. 

 

It is also incorrect that the left thumb doesn't do anything except maybe fret a note. One's thumb is paramount to their approach to the fretboard, you've never seen a guitarist NOT use their thumb to support their hand position on the neck, with at least one notable exception - Jeff Healy, who put the guitar in his lap and did much of his fretting with his thumb. 

 

[dmitch57]

15 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

both my left handed uncle and myself play right handed. Steve Morse, Duane Allman, Elvis Costello, Joe Perry, Johnny Winters, Mark Knopfler, Gary Moore, and Billy Corgan are all left handed and play right handed

Oh sure, there will always be exceptions. Plenty of lefties who play righty were probably influenced by things like the lack of right-handed guitars when they wanted to start learning, or closed-minded teachers who said "This is the way", handing them a right-handed guitar. These exceptions don't address anything about my theory or any other theory about why guitarists fret with their left hand.

 

15 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

It is also incorrect that the left thumb doesn't do anything except maybe fret a note. One's thumb is paramount to their approach to the fretboard, you've never seen a guitarist NOT use their thumb to support their hand position on the neck,

Come on, surely you admit there is no comparison between the level of activity between the right thumb and the left thumb. My hands aren't big enough for me to fret with my left thumb, so my left thumb is just an anchor. A crucial component, sure, but it would work just as well if it were an immobile stump. Comparing the activity and motion of the left thumb to that of the right thumb...as Jules Winfield would say, "They aren't in the same ballpark. They aren't even the same sport."

[KuruPrionz]

4 hours ago, dmitch57 said:

Oh sure, there will always be exceptions. Plenty of lefties who play righty were probably influenced by things like the lack of right-handed guitars when they wanted to start learning, or closed-minded teachers who said "This is the way", handing them a right-handed guitar. These exceptions don't address anything about my theory or any other theory about why guitarists fret with their left hand.

 

Come on, surely you admit there is no comparison between the level of activity between the right thumb and the left thumb. My hands aren't big enough for me to fret with my left thumb, so my left thumb is just an anchor. A crucial component, sure, but it would work just as well if it were an immobile stump. Comparing the activity and motion of the left thumb to that of the right thumb...as Jules Winfield would say, "They aren't in the same ballpark. They aren't even the same sport."

"were probably influenced by things like the lack of LEFT-handed guitars" - fixed that for ya.

I'm not taking about "exceptions", I'm talking about guitarists. The variations are endless. Note the length of this list:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musicians_who_play_left-handed - these are all notable guitarists. For every notable guitarist, there are dozens if not hundreds who do something different but don't get publicized. I was a guitar tech for decades, I've seen MANY variations in preference based on technique and none of my customers were "famous". 

I've seen a right handed person at a local open mic night playing a guitar left-handed and upside down, he was a finger picker and sounded pretty "normal". Elizabeth Cotton did more or less the same thing. 

Try putting your left thumb in a splint so it is immobile and then playing. You won't like it, that impedes the ability to shift positions that a competent guitarist needs for expression. I'm NOT comparing what the hands on a guitarist do, they obviously do different things and different players also do different things, the variations are many. Your single, simple theory may cover your own playing but it does not even come close to covering the endless variations in ways people play the guitar. 

 

Here's a guitarist born with no arms. He plays a song starting at 1:30. Your "theory" is completely meaningless in this context. A good theory holds water in more cases than what you are promoting, which is a very limited viewpoint specific to right handed guitarists who play like how you play. The world of guitar is MUCH larger. 

 

[Thethirdapple]

“Whats being forgotten” with any so called debate along technical lines is generally the actual reason(goal) of an artist…

 

Connecting with the audience. And prior to that, is the notion of connecting with something inside ourselves!

 

There are no doubt, workflow improvements, but does the audience care or even notice? I am not calling anyone out for chasing the latest and greatest of whatever and also find myself geeking out on technical advances all the time. But to label something as good or not based on the technology is discouraging. 
 

All of the past “hits” were created with less than we have today and yet the impact of those works persists. This reminds me of the “debate” between vinyls and cd’s. A sound being a precise reproduction does not ensure it to be pleasant. I would postulate that the “imperfections” of acoustic sound is what we find pleasing, this is simply my perception. Akin to an instrument “out of tune” but sounds so right!!!

 

We are “trained” to enjoy what we are accustomed to, such as the initial “awkwardness” of different tunings or non-western scales if we are only ever exposed to that small sampling of all possible tonalities… And the same relates to the chasing of technology, IMHO…

 

PEACE

[OG_Dave]

On 3/15/2023 at 12:35 PM, Anderton said:

Aside from all of the above, the thing that bugged me about tape was the maintenance required. When people complain about software updates, I can only assume they never had to check head azimuth, relap heads, or spend big $$$ on test tapes.

I remember being trained on basic maintenance on a 2" Otari machine, can't remember model number. I did not find the experience conducive to inner peace. Tape and tape machines were a PITA and digital has, imo, utterly transcended it as both a storage and playback medium. The discussion on the musicality of the storage medium has been going on for a long time though - even before digital reared its head. The studio I cut my teeth on used 456 Grand Master and I had a hard time with other tape formulas. I remember drunkenly (and ignorantly) debating the affects particle density had on reproduction quality. Ah, good times!

 

It's interesting how much of what we do in the engineering realm is data archive. Make as pristine or faithful recording as possible. Tweak it to a cartoon level caricature of the original so that it sounds emotionally engaging on myriad playback systems, all the while keeping an eye on distortion artifacts imposed by a given media. Some we like, some we don't. Some affinity is subjective, some is objective.

 

I loathe .mp3 as a format. Hate it. I hate the theory behind it. Intentional mediocritization. Bleh. Also, playback device is hugely important. I cannot listen to any media on my phone. Sorry. I need a speaker larger than a gnats ass to reproduce sound that will garner my interest.

[Anderton]

7 hours ago, Thethirdapple said:

“Whats being forgotten” with any so called debate along technical lines is generally the actual reason(goal) of an artist…

 

Connecting with the audience. And prior to that, is the notion of connecting with something inside ourselves!

 

There are no doubt, workflow improvements, but does the audience care or even notice?

 

As I often say at seminars, all that matters is the emotional impact on the listener. No radio station ever said "we were going to play your release, but you used a solid-state mic preamp...didn't you? Admit it!!!" 

 

But there's a parallel track. I've played WAV files over good speakers to students who were used to MP3s played on computer speakers or earbuds. Their minds were blown. 

 

It's true that all the audience cares about is the music. But when exposed to higher-quality playback, I do think many of them can notice the difference. If I go for a walk and listen to MP3s on my phone, I know they're not the best fidelity on the planet. But it doesn't matter, the music is there. When I get back to my studio, though, I'll listen to wav files instead of MP3s over good speakers.

 

There's more to the story than this. See my January column for Mixonline, Is the Race to the Bottom Over?

[KuruPrionz]

7 hours ago, Thethirdapple said:

“Whats being forgotten” with any so called debate along technical lines is generally the actual reason(goal) of an artist…

 

Connecting with the audience. And prior to that, is the notion of connecting with something inside ourselves!

 

There are no doubt, workflow improvements, but does the audience care or even notice? I am not calling anyone out for chasing the latest and greatest of whatever and also find myself geeking out on technical advances all the time. But to label something as good or not based on the technology is discouraging. 
 

All of the past “hits” were created with less than we have today and yet the impact of those works persists. This reminds me of the “debate” between vinyls and cd’s. A sound being a precise reproduction does not ensure it to be pleasant. I would postulate that the “imperfections” of acoustic sound is what we find pleasing, this is simply my perception. Akin to an instrument “out of tune” but sounds so right!!!

 

We are “trained” to enjoy what we are accustomed to, such as the initial “awkwardness” of different tunings or non-western scales if we are only ever exposed to that small sampling of all possible tonalities… And the same relates to the chasing of technology, IMHO…

 

PEACE

Thus, my post about the gentleman who plays guitar with his feet since he has no arms. He needed to express, to connect and he did it. That is beautiful and wonderful. 

Many years ago I tripped and damaged my left little finger. It changed what my hand could do but it didn't stop me from playing. I play because I love the music and I love that other people love the music too, I'm bringing joy to my little world. 

[Anderton]

The Drake Music School is an organization I've given press to over the years. They do amazing work. After you've seen a kid so driven to play music he does everything with a pencil clenched in his mouth, you're reminded once again how important music is to the soul.

[Thethirdapple]

Watched a really good conference a few years back regarding the “loudness wars” and the way streaming platforms are causing artist to conform to its market research… will try to find the link.

 

Found this, which pretty much sums it all up…

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Thethirdapple said:

Watched a really good conference a few years back regarding the “loudness wars” and the way streaming platforms are causing artist to conform to its market research… will try to find the link.

 

Found this, which pretty much sums it all up…

This cartoon completely ignores the 3 most important aspects of any music production.

1. A great composition

2. A great performance

3. A great sounding space

 

Without all of those 3 aspects, all that fancy expensive gear is worth zero. 

[Thethirdapple]

Here is the full video…

 

Alan’s presentation starts at about the 25 minute mark.

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

21 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

This cartoon completely ignores the 3 most important aspects of any music production.

1. A great composition

2. A great performance

3. A great sounding space

 

Without all of those 3 aspects, all that fancy expensive gear is worth zero. 

And IMO #3 is important, but not essential.

 

I've heard some great music recorded with primitive gear and in a bad sounding space.

 

Notes ♫

[KuruPrionz]

1 minute ago, Notes_Norton said:

And IMO #3 is important, but not essential.

 

I've heard some great music recorded with primitive gear and in a bad sounding space.

 

Notes ♫

This is true, it can be done. And I did say "important" and put the space 3rd on the list for a reason. 

Great composition comes first, somebody who is pretty OK but has some "soul" can bring a great composition to life with a great performance. 

The room is worth mentioning because some places are very noisy and would be difficult to use well.

[Notes_Norton]

5 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

This is true, it can be done. And I did say "important" and put the space 3rd on the list for a reason. 

Great composition comes first, somebody who is pretty OK but has some "soul" can bring a great composition to life with a great performance. 

The room is worth mentioning because some places are very noisy and would be difficult to use well.

I've performed live in some terrible rooms.

 

There is one yacht club that I play at. The dining room is large, three sides have almost ceiling to floor windows, so people can see the boats. We play at the opposite end of the room, facing the center window. There is a second drummer who hits everything about a quarter of a second late. We can minimize the effect by pointing our speakers at opposite corners, but we can't get him/her to stop.

 

There would probably be no way to make a decent recording in that place.

 

So, your point is taken and agreed on.

 

Notes ♫