Do Bundled Plug-Ins Influence Your Choice of a DAW?

[Anderton]

Some elitists look down at bundled plug-ins ("they simply can't be as good as third-party ones"), but the current selection of DAWs often come with a really good selection of plug-ins. In fact, if you work with multiple DAWs, it can be frustrating that most are locked to only those DAWs. If you want to use them, you have to export a file, process it, and then re-import it.

 

One of the reasons I hated to see ReWire go is that it made using Ableton's outstanding rhythmic effects easy in other DAWs. Cubase has the best selection of MIDI effects by far. (Why did the industry ditch the standard MFX MIDI effects format, anyway? I remember when you could use Cubase MIDI effects with Sonar, and vice-versa). PreSonus's Sphere subscription option gives access to their optional-at-extra-cost plug-ins...you get the idea.

 

Or do you just get something like Komplete or IK's Total Studio, and call it good?

[Mighty Motif Max]

Since I'm fully invested in Cubase now, I don't plan on switching DAWs any time soon, so bundled plugins aren't a factor. That said, when I did choose to go full Cubase one of the things I liked was how good the stock plugins were overall. It wasn't the primary deciding factor, but it was something I considered. Saves costs in the long run, and I still find myself using the stock EQ's, compressors, and various tools routinely, even having a good assortment of third-party options available to me. They're very clean, for when I don't want to hear a coloration or character added to a track, which is very useful IMO.

[KuruPrionz]

I chose my DAW a LONG time ago. Tracktion/Waveform has always had a set of plugins. I've used them. Some of them get used often, others I haven't tried yet. 

 

When Waveform 12 came out, they touted a new audio engine and playback definitely sounds clearer. They also re-did their plugin offerings, they have a set that comes with the program (50 plugins) and "The Artisan Collection" which can often be had as part of a on-sale bundle (186 plugins). 

That's a total of 236 included (and paid) plugins for a package deal on Waveform 12. 

 

I do have too many plugins!!! I use quite a few of the included plugins. I try to minimize using them if possible (mostly, it is possible). If I can record a better sounding track, I don't need to mess with it as much afterwards. 

 

I have been trying different delays and reverbs lately. A little goes a long ways and many of them have more similarities than differences. 

 

I have many others, mostly freebies. Often those are very good quality as well, Valhalla Supermassive, a good sampling of NI and IK stuff, etc. If you surf the "best free plugins of 2023" sort of sites you can find all sorts of free plugins and many of them sound very good indeed. The functions may be limited compared to the paid versions but it won't do software companies any good to provide free plugins that don't sound good. Often, the free ones do enough things to be useful. 

 

I'd say no, I didn't choose my DAW for the plugins. I chose it because I found it easy to use and despite adding tons of new features, they've kept the easy to use DAW interface that I like and am used to using. 

 

Waveform is cross platform for Windows, Mac OS and Linux, and on the Mac I can use every AU, VST and VST3 plugin I've downloaded so far, free or purchased. 

 

I'm a big fan of the Eventide plugins, when they've been on sale I've purchased Physion, Physion 2, Split EQ and Precision Time Align. All good stuff with easy to use interfaces and great sounds. No affiliation, just good kit and not your usual "same as it ever was" sorts of sound enhancements. 

 

 

[Nowarezman]

I'm basically a Reaper user, 'tho I'll probably be giving Studio One a few kicks in the tires soon.  I use some of the Reaper VST freebies for quick sketches, but always end up swapping out for my tried and trues.   Komplete, u-he stuff, Waves this and that, Pigments, East-West, AAS, etc. 

 

I know a lot of the stock plugins that come with Ableton are great - my son uses them all the time.  

 

But plugins are like stocking stuffers - endless fun checking them, watching videos on them,  browsing say, Plug-In Boutique and finding gems here and here.  Rather similar to buying pedals.  The shopping and trying them on is a favorite activity in and of itself.  

 

nat

 

[David Emm]

My Logic journey was a series of happy accidents. By most reports, v.8 is where it became much more user-friendly. That's where I began, after a maddening struggle with another sequencer. I bought Autosampler to preserve my hardware... and Apple bought it. I bought Camel Audio's Alchemy... and they bought Camel Audio. The AU format became more common, which meant that third-party tools became almost plug-&-play. I'd already sampled the bleep out of my Korgs, so I had a healthy EXS24 library.  

 

It was never a matter of bundled software for me. Its been more a matter of Logic growing at a pace that made the idea moot. I've bought more specialized plugs for high-exposure things like guitar and piano and vintage goodies like the ELKA-X, but I'm grateful that its been RELATIVELY simple. I only have the one big pulsing brain lobe for musical things.

[Anderton]

Bundled plug-ins matter to me, because I like to stay within a DAW's ecosystem as much as possible. It makes collaboration easier, and there are no issues with compatibility. Another advantage is that is seems most DAWs don't go overboard with 100,000 presets for their plug-ins. so you can audition what's available fairly quickly.

 

There's a practical consideration, too. For example if I'm writing a Pro Tools tips book, it needs to include plug-ins bundled with Pro Tools.

 

Sometimes there are surprises. I was looking for a cello sound and reflexively went to my "first call" orchestral VIs. I couldn't find something that fit the way I wanted, so I checked out what was bundled with Studio One, and ended up using their cello. I think one reason was because the choices were limited - I presume they included the most universally applicable sounds. So, I was able to try all their cellos in just a minute or two, and found one that worked perfectly.

 

[RABid]

When I was starting out it made a big difference. Now, not so much. Komplete seems like my home base and the DAW's come and go. I will say that I do miss some of the Reason tools since I moved to Bitwig. Reason has some nice tools for creating drum patterns, arps, and chord rhythms.

[Stokely]

If I was just staring out with zero plugins, I'd say it would.  Logic has everything you need really to get rolling, including instruments.

Now having said that, I'm as guilty as many who kind of have a snobbish attitude toward stock plugins, for little good reason.  Sure, if you carefully A/B the Logic compressor and it loses to some 3rd party one, that makes sense.  It's more about a nebulous idea that the dedicated company making that thing *must* be better, or cooler at least!

Now having said *that*, I have replaced or supplemented some Logic plugins that I didn't like all that much.  Electric piano, acoustic piano, vintage synth (though as I've said, Alchemy is underrated and I need to explore it more).  Retro synth is ok but very basic.   I still use the Vintage organ and clav.   Reverbs and delays are a special disease because really--you can't have too many, right?     Seriously, while I use Tape Delay in Logic I don't care for Delay Designer and get a lot more use out of Replika and Valhalla Delay.  I should probably use Chromaverb more than I do.

Speaking of Komplete, I underuse that more than I do the Logic stock plugins.  If not for Kontakt, it would have been a dud of a purchase for how much I use it.  I really thought I'd use FM8, Massive X and Reaktor more.

[KuruPrionz]

On 2/26/2023 at 9:26 AM, Anderton said:

Bundled plug-ins matter to me, because I like to stay within a DAW's ecosystem as much as possible. It makes collaboration easier, and there are no issues with compatibility. Another advantage is that is seems most DAWs don't go overboard with 100,000 presets for their plug-ins. so you can audition what's available fairly quickly.

 

There's a practical consideration, too. For example if I'm writing a Pro Tools tips book, it needs to include plug-ins bundled with Pro Tools.

 

Sometimes there are surprises. I was looking for a cello sound and reflexively went to my "first call" orchestral VIs. I couldn't find something that fit the way I wanted, so I checked out what was bundled with Studio One, and ended up using their cello. I think one reason was because the choices were limited - I presume they included the most universally applicable sounds. So, I was able to try all their cellos in just a minute or two, and found one that worked perfectly.

 

Makes sense. To further complicate things, Mac OS comes with about 30+ plugins. Some are a bit weird and others work well. I like their High Pass filter, super simple to set up. If one were collaborating with a Windows user it could be a consideration since they won't have the same plugins. I don't know if Windows offers them or not?

[David Emm]

5 hours ago, Stokely said:

If I was just staring out with zero plugins, I'd say it would.  Logic has everything you need really to get rolling, including instruments.

Now having said that, I'm as guilty as many who kind of have a snobbish attitude toward stock plugins, for little good reason.  Sure, if you carefully A/B the Logic compressor and it loses to some 3rd party one, that makes sense.  It's more about a nebulous idea that the dedicated company making that thing *must* be better, or cooler at least!

Now having said *that*, I have replaced or supplemented some Logic plugins that I didn't like all that much.  Electric piano, acoustic piano, vintage synth (though as I've said, Alchemy is underrated and I need to explore it more).  Retro synth is ok but very basic.   I still use the Vintage organ and clav.   Reverbs and delays are a special disease because really--you can't have too many, right?     Seriously, while I use Tape Delay in Logic I don't care for Delay Designer and get a lot more use out of Replika and Valhalla Delay.  I should probably use Chromaverb more than I do.

 

Logic is so comprehensive that I don't fault Apple for not having 100% superior plug-ins. I'm glad to see their resources used to make the rest of the DAW as useful as it is. If you were to start feeding it more seriously, Alchemy could obsolesce several of your other instruments, especially if you dropped Sampler instruments into it. That doesn't mean you won't be drawn to a new synth or a better guitar option, but their in-house B-3 is built like a brick (bleep)house. I'm sure that comment makes Vent users cringe, but I'm not wrong, either. 🤓         

 

[Dr Mike Metlay]

On 2/24/2023 at 11:29 PM, Anderton said:

Some elitists look down at bundled plug-ins ("they simply can't be as good as third-party ones"), but the current selection of DAWs often come with a really good selection of plug-ins. In fact, if you work with multiple DAWs, it can be frustrating that most are locked to only those DAWs. If you want to use them, you have to export a file, process it, and then re-import it.

 

One of the reasons I hated to see ReWire go is that it made using Ableton's outstanding rhythmic effects easy in other DAWs. Cubase has the best selection of MIDI effects by far. (Why did the industry ditch the standard MFX MIDI effects format, anyway? I remember when you could use Cubase MIDI effects with Sonar, and vice-versa). PreSonus's Sphere subscription option gives access to their optional-at-extra-cost plug-ins...you get the idea.

 

Or do you just get something like Komplete or IK's Total Studio, and call it good?

 

I never use bundled plug-ins except on very rare occasions. Sometimes they can be quite good, but often the UI considerations and the option for great flexibility in third-party plug-ins just puts the kibosh on them for me.

 

Has anyone here ever tried to do serious extended work with any of Live's effects or instruments? It's like building a ship in a bottle.

 

mike

 

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, Dr Mike Metlay said:

Has anyone here ever tried to do serious extended work with any of Live's effects or instruments? It's like building a ship in a bottle.

 

In my live performance sets, I mostly use Live's plug-ins, with few exceptions. But, that's because I just need to program them once, and have them in in the right track at the right time when stepping through scenes in Session view. For me, Live is not the perfect DAW. But no DAW handles live performance as well as Live, so...bifurcation time

[Anderton]

5 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

I don't know if Windows offers them or not?

 

Windows has no plug-ins. Maybe that would change if Microsoft offered a DAW, but I don't see that happening. 

 

Windows has always been behind the curve for pro audio, even though it handles audio and video for games exceptionally well. However, in recent years the drivers have improved, and their audio stack continues to evolve. I wouldn't be surprised if the native audio drivers reach the same level as the Mac's in a couple years. They're already getting close. 

[bill5]

On 2/25/2023 at 1:29 AM, Anderton said:

Some elitists look down at bundled plug-ins ("they simply can't be as good as third-party ones"

Elitists are by definition idiots. Stock plugins that come with DAWs are IMO far more often than not good if not great and overlooked because they are "only" stock plugins and not a trendy, flashy whatever. Some of my favs are those that came with my DAW. 

 

So to answer your question, no...my choice of a DAW is about workflow, how user-friendly it is. There are so many great plugins now, including free, that the idea that what comes with it should matter is for me absurd. 

 

[Anderton]

10 hours ago, bill5 said:

Elitists are by definition idiots. Stock plugins that come with DAWs are IMO far more often than not good if not great and overlooked because they are "only" stock plugins and not a trendy, flashy whatever. Some of my favs are those that came with my DAW. 

 

Yup!

 

10 hours ago, bill5 said:

So to answer your question, no...my choice of a DAW is about workflow, how user-friendly it is. There are so many great plugins now, including free, that the idea that what comes with it should matter is for me absurd. 

 

I think it matters more for those who are getting started, and still in the "watching dollars" phase. I know that PreSonus Sphere is one of the subscription programs that has done well, and I presume that's because someone starting out gets all the plug-ins, sample libraries, add-ons, etc. along with Studio One. OTOH Cakewalk doesn't have a lot of plug-ins, but it's free. So that frees up $$ for buying plug-ins.

 

I also know people who were going to recording schools, used a Mac, and then opted for Logic because of what came with it as opposed to Pro Tools, which is what they had learned on in class. 

 

But overall, the point about free plug-ins is important. If a DAW is missing a plug-in whose function you want, you can probably find a free version of what you need out there somewhere.

[Stokely]

Someone mentioned the look and feel aspect and Logic is an interesting one there.  They pretty obviously had a certain (futuristic, skeuomorphic robotic) type of design but have been changing to one that really appeals to me:  flatter, resizable and more "vector".   I have some excellent Plugin Alliance plugins (Lindell 80 is one) that I find almost unusable both because they are trying so hard to look like old musty rack gear--which clutters things up-- and because the knobs aren't easy to manipulate with a mouse.  Native Instruments, similar deal on their older stuff (and even Massive X has a love/hate minimalist thing happening.)

I'd be pretty satisfied if every design was similar to Logic's new approach or Valhalla's, but of course that's extremely subjective!  There's probably Lindell 80 users who specifically love it because it looks like their old Neve right down to the dents  

[Anderton]

Check out the https://www.airwindows.com/ plug-ins, which are free. Minimal interfaces, good sounds...I contribute to his Patreon because I think what he's doing is pretty cool, and he's not charging for it.

[bill5]

9 hours ago, Anderton said:

But overall, the point about free plug-ins is important. If a DAW is missing a plug-in whose function you want, you can probably find a free version of what you need out there somewhere.

It's not even probable; it's guaranteed. Good ones too. Which is IMO why what plugins come with a DAW shouldn't influence a purchase at all. 

[NewImprov]

Though Logic is my DAW-of-choice, I've been a NI Komplete user forever, and will admit to being something of a snob about the NI stuff. However, the more I work with Mainstage, the more I use the bundled instruments. For most synth timbres I find I need, I can get something pretty close pretty quickly, and I can be pretty sure it'll work reliably and the CPU hit will be relatively low.

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, bill5 said:

It's not even probable; it's guaranteed. 

 

The only exception that comes to mind (and it's rare) is when VIs integrate with a program's workflow. For example, when you want to record into Studio One's sampler, it can connect to a hardware audio input, track output, send, bus, or instrument output within the program. You can also drag-and-drop samples edited in Sample One to their Impact XT drum module. But to your point, you can end up with the same results using any sampler, drum instrument, and program. It just takes more time to set up the routings and such.

 

I look to free plugins for the kind of odd/interesting/innovative stuff that doesn't come with a DAW. There are so many free plugins for bread-and-butter functions I'd just as soon use the ones in a DAW, and spend my time looking for the more unusual free plugins. This is why I like the Air Windows ones. I'm also sure there are many free Kontakt libraries for which there are no commercial equivalents. 

[bill5]

Interesting on the workflow thing. As I'm just immersed in my one and only DAW, I guess I'm fortunate that's not a thing. 

 

Re plugins, there are many cases where there's a free plugin that's better than the one that comes with a DAW IMO, and sometimes as good or better than even numerous paid ones (it all of course varies and is subjective). "You get what you pay for" doesn't apply with any consistency to the plugin world. 

[Stokely]

Another consideration--which I didn't have until I did a big upgrade from High Sierra all the way to Monterey--is that having a bunch of plugins from different companies can make for more hassle when it comes to updating.  Authorization as well.   I had a bunch of plugins either fail or perform poorly and had to spend more time than I liked to either ditch some (I had too many) or get the keepers updated.  

[bill5]

Agreed; I think it's wise to shop around, but then find plugins of a given type you like and learn them well and stick with them. Really the quality diff's in many plugins are IMO exaggerated. It's much more important to acquire the skill on how to use them. (This is more true with effects than instruments, but even then)

[KuruPrionz]

On 2/28/2023 at 12:31 PM, Stokely said:

Someone mentioned the look and feel aspect and Logic is an interesting one there.  They pretty obviously had a certain (futuristic, skeuomorphic robotic) type of design but have been changing to one that really appeals to me:  flatter, resizable and more "vector".   I have some excellent Plugin Alliance plugins (Lindell 80 is one) that I find almost unusable both because they are trying so hard to look like old musty rack gear--which clutters things up-- and because the knobs aren't easy to manipulate with a mouse.  Native Instruments, similar deal on their older stuff (and even Massive X has a love/hate minimalist thing happening.)

I'd be pretty satisfied if every design was similar to Logic's new approach or Valhalla's, but of course that's extremely subjective!  There's probably Lindell 80 users who specifically love it because it looks like their old Neve right down to the dents  

I'm not into the "make it look just like the hardware" thing either. I have a Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor plugin that looks just like the rack mount gear and while it sounds great, I hate that thing!!!! Way too many knobs, some of them switches and some pots, different sizes and in a pattern that isn't really intuitive - plus they do the mirror image thing except in the center things are different. Fail.

[Bill Heins]

I prefer a real interface over a cartoon interface any day. The real interface makes sense to me while the cartoon stuff leaves me shaking my head...move the unicorn to the castle to increase the input

 

Seriously, I work better with an interface that replicates the functionality of the hardware unit...for instance Shadow Hills as a plugin attempts to duplicate the same experience as using the hardware unit(with a few additional functions). There's a reason for every knob, button, and slider on hardware devices and I prefer plugins that give me the same control in software that I would experience in hardware. You may not need to affect every item but it's there if you do. If anything when these plugins are created perhaps they could offer a simplified interface as an alternative for those who don't want to see the controls they don't know and will never use?

 

Bill

[Bill Heins]

Back on topic...bundled plugins don't influence my DAW selection. I'm using Nuendo right now and the included plugins are very good but I have 3rd party plugins I use that also carry over to Samplitude, Sound Forge, WaveLab, Cubase, etc.

 

Bill

[ElmerJFudd]

Not a fan of crippled plugins included with hardware and DAWs as added value and advertising for buying the  full version stuff.  
 

There are so many DAWs to choose from now.  So, what they include that is of good quality (not bundled third party cripple-ware) makes a difference. 

[Sundown]

I would say no. I choose my DAW (Cubase) based on years of experience with it and familiarity, as well as basic editing capability. 

 

I will confess that I probably have the elitist attitude Craig described, and there aren’t many times I will grab a bundled effect plugin for dynamics, EQ, or ambience. I’ll certainly use the creative stuff (rhythmic gates, vocoders, etc.), and I’ll use a bundled Chorus or Delay, but rarely would I reach for a bundled reverb, EQ, or compressor. I tend to use the boutiquey stuff (UAD, Waves, Fabfilter, etc). And I never find myself using the channel strip EQ or dynamics. I won’t hesitate to use a Waves C1 (an old, very simple compressor), but I won’t use a bundled effect that probably surpasses it. 

 

When it comes to bundled instruments, there I have no bias whatsoever … I don’t care if it’s bundled, third party, free, etc. If it sounds good it is good. Steinberg provides a few really good freebies with Retrologue, GrooveAgent, PadShop, etc. And I still use the Waldorf A1 that came with Cubase SX.

 

I’m a lot more confident in the synth arena, so I trust my ears much more than I might with effects. Maybe that’s why I always use the higher end stuff for EQ/dynamics/reverb.

 

Todd