Dumb audio cable question … Powered NFMs

[Sundown]

Hi Guys,

 

This is likely a dumb question, but that’s how I learn.

 

I’ve read in audiophile forums that speaker connections should use equal length wire for LH and RH. I interpret that to be speaker wire coming from a power amp and terminating at a passive speaker.

 

In my home studio, I’ve got powered NFMs and they’re being fed a balanced +4 signal (typically from my DAW interface or my compact mixer). If I did equal length cables, one of them is going to have substantial slack. One cable might be 25 feet (RH) and the other could be 12 to 15 feet and still reach the left channel. That’s ten or more feet of waste that has to be zig-zagged or coiled (and I’ve read it shouldn’t be coiled).

 

Given that balanced runs can go hundreds of feet, I can’t fathom that it would make sense (or make any measurable, audible difference) to use equal length cable to drive powered NFMs. Am I right? Can I do the sensible thing and cut the cables to unique, individual lengths?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Todd

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Sundown said:

Hi Guys,

 

This is likely a dumb question, but that’s how I learn.

 

I’ve read in audiophile forums that speaker connections should use equal length wire for LH and RH. I interpret that to be speaker wire coming from a power amp and terminating at a passive speaker.

 

In my home studio, I’ve got powered NFMs and they’re being fed a balanced +4 signal (typically from my DAW interface or my compact mixer). If I did equal length cables, one of them is going to have substantial slack. One cable might be 25 feet (RH) and the other could be 12 to 15 feet and still reach the left channel. That’s ten or more feet of waste that has to be zig-zagged or coiled (and I’ve read it shouldn’t be coiled).

 

Given that balanced runs can go hundreds of feet, I can’t fathom that it would make sense (or make any measurable, audible difference) to use equal length cable to drive powered NFMs. Am I right? Can I do the sensible thing and cut the cables to unique, individual lengths?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Todd

Electrical current travels quickly, any phase difference between those 2 cables will be at a very high frequency and probably inaudible. 

On the other hand, having your near field monitors that far apart will cause phase problems in the lower frequencies, which is already a weak spot with most near fields since they are usually relatively compact. Ideally, you have them about 4 feet apart and sit right between them, 4 feet back. An equilateral triangle in close quarters. 

 

Thats why they are called "Near Field Monitors". If you have a single subwoofer, a great sounding room and they are spaced equally so one is not louder than the other, then it might be OK, depending on what you are trying to do. I certainly would not want to mix a recording on speakers placed that way!!!! 

[Sundown]

Hi KP,

 

The dimensions I cited probably far overstate the speaker positions. Up until today the speakers were about 6 feet apart in an equilateral triangle. For fun and experimentation I pulled them in a bit, and now they are about 5 feet apart.

 

My setup is quite unique and I modeled if after Bob Katz's mastering studio. I mostly play and record with headphones and then I mix and master on my monitors. But instead of having my speakers flank my LCD screens or sit on top of my desk, my monitors are free standing with nothing between me and the speakers. I put a redundant LCD display on the floor and I put a mouse and Faderport on my lap and I mix from that position. It's not the most efficient use of space perhaps, but the stereo image is incredible. With my desk off to the side my cable runs are longer to reach the speakers. 

 

I probably use my NFMs more like midfield monitors and with the amount of trapping in my room, bass response is quite good (it's very even with no noticeable standing waves).

 

Todd

[KuruPrionz]

Gotcha, that looks like a really nice set up!

You should have no problems at all. 

 

I wish I had that much space!

[Anderton]

Free-standing speakers are the way to go, although creating an efficient working space that can take advantage of that can be a challenge. Love your setup, though!

 

As to your original question, speaker wires have to be identical to the nearest one-millionth of a meter, as measured by phase-coherent, NASA-approved laser measuring devices. Make sure you calibrate them to the National Bureau of Standards signals broadcast over WWV in Fort Collins. It's also crucial that the cables point in the correct direction, or the electrons will run into each and cause your cables to overheat. Doing anything less will compromise your sound so badly that you might as well just give up, and realize that making music is not for you.

 

At least that's what some people, especially those who sell really expensive wire, would like you to believe   

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Anderton said:

Free-standing speakers are the way to go, although creating an efficient working space that can take advantage of that can be a challenge. Love your setup, though!

 

As to your original question, speaker wires have to be identical to the nearest one-millionth of a meter, as measured by phase-coherent, NASA-approved laser measuring devices. Make sure you calibrate them to the National Bureau of Standards signals broadcast over WWV in Fort Collins. It's also crucial that the cables point in the correct direction, or the electrons will run into each and cause your cables to overheat. Doing anything less will compromise your sound so badly that you might as well just give up, and realize that making music is not for you.

 

At least that's what some people, especially those who sell really expensive wire, would like you to believe   

LOL!

I'll never forget reading the Tape Op interview with the engineer that ran David Gilmour's houseboat recording studio on the Thames. 

He mentioned buying a pair of speaker cables that cost thousands of dollars each and how he and David G came to the conclusion that the cables sounded better when hooked up on one direction as opposed to the other direction. 

 

Maybe they had the good weed? 🤣

[Sundown]

Thanks for the feedback guys, and thanks for the compliments on the room. I finished construction around November/December and I’m steadily finishing cabling, connections, etc. I’ve tested it with reference tracks but I don’t have my DAW fired up yet. It was a two-year project with countless obstacles, but Builder #3 came through for me.

 

I’ll post a separate thread one day about the room and the build. It’s in my basement and it’s 21’ x 13’ with a 7’ ceiling. The ceiling height sucks, but everyone has constraints. I am very happy with the isolation and overall bass response. I can crank my speakers to ~85 dB any time of day or night and really nothing transmits throughout the house. The walls and ceiling are decoupled from the joists with Resilmount urethane brackets and the drywall is further decoupled with Resilmount brackets and metal furring channel (stud construction is 25GA metal on 24” centers). I used QuietRock EZ Snap throughout (with 5/8” Firecode X on the other leaf) and while QuietRock is expensive, I found it far more more reasonable than two layers of 5/8” and Green Glue. Not many drywall contractors would ever do two layers correctly. I would up doing all of the caulking myself (it took a case and a half of 28oz tubes).

 

But it’s the best room I’ve had to date and the only one I’ve worked in with acoustics in the design. I didn’t do splayed walls, slat walls, etc. as I didn’t want to ruin resale value. So I went with a 21’ x 13’ rectangle with a ton of trapping, de-coupling, insulation, and a slick mechanical door seal.

 

Todd

 

 

[harmonizer]

Re speaker positioning, the speed of sound in air is very close to 1 foot per thousands of a second (1 foot is about 30 cm).

This can matter when doing captures of a drum kit sound using multiple mics: the kick sound makes it into the condenser overhead mics, in our setup the overheads are about 3 feet farther from the head of the beater than the kick mic out front. So in the post-gig mixing, I delay the track for the kick mic by 0.003 seconds (three thousands) and reverse its phase. The 0.003 seconds does matter for making the kick sound more crisp and more present.

 

Lower sounds like the bass will suffer the most when the sound coming from two speakers is out of phase, so the distance of the two monitors to your ears will matter. I don't think 15 extra feet of cable on one monitor compared to the other will matter for making the two speakers out of phase, because the speed of the electrical signals through the wires that go to your speakers will be many many times faster than the speed of sound through the air.

[Sundown]

11 hours ago, harmonizer said:

I don't think 15 extra feet of cable on one monitor compared to the other will matter for making the two speakers out of phase, because the speed of the electrical signals through the wires that go to your speakers will be many many times faster than the speed of sound through the air.

 

Thanks Harmonizer - 

 

Todd

[KuruPrionz]

11 hours ago, harmonizer said:

Re speaker positioning, the speed of sound in air is very close to 1 foot per thousands of a second (1 foot is about 30 cm).

This can matter when doing captures of a drum kit sound using multiple mics: the kick sound makes it into the condenser overhead mics, in our setup the overheads are about 3 feet farther from the head of the beater than the kick mic out front. So in the post-gig mixing, I delay the track for the kick mic by 0.003 seconds (three thousands) and reverse its phase. The 0.003 seconds does matter for making the kick sound more crisp and more present.

 

Lower sounds like the bass will suffer the most when the sound coming from two speakers is out of phase, so the distance of the two monitors to your ears will matter. I don't think 15 extra feet of cable on one monitor compared to the other will matter for making the two speakers out of phase, because the speed of the electrical signals through the wires that go to your speakers will be many many times faster than the speed of sound through the air.

It's a tiny thing but I would tend to keep the kick drum right where it is, since the mic is close and the drummer is doing their best to lock the groove. 

I'm recording on a DAW and I always leave enough room at the beginning by doing a vocal countdown instead of the click track lead in. That way I can trim a bit off a track and move it forward into phase rather than backwards. Eventide Precision Time Align is a great plugin for lining things up, super accurate. 

After I got the tracks in sync, I'd probably just put a high pass filter on the room mics and adjust it to leave out the kick. 

 

Not telling anybody how to do things but it's working very well for me to align forward and try to reduce the sources of low end tones. 😇

[Anderton]

14 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Eventide Precision Time Align is a great plugin for lining things up, super accurate. 

 

If you don't have Eventide plugins (which are excellent, BTW), Pro Tools also includes a basic time delay, and Voxengo has a free time delay plugin that can delay mid and sides as well as straight stereo audio. 

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

If you don't have Eventide plugins (which are excellent, BTW), Pro Tools also includes a basic time delay, and Voxengo has a free time delay plugin that can delay mid and sides as well as straight stereo audio. 

I'l check out the Voxengo plugin, their free stuff is often very good indeed. 

I have maybe 3 Eventide plugins, all bought on sale and all of them worth every penny. I'm transitioning to the idea that Split EQ is probably just about the only EQ plugin that I need. I make an exception for the Mac OS plugin AUhighpass.au which is just beautifully simple to use and sounds great. 

Still coming to grips with Physion 2, it's like a box full of magic tricks! Being able to cleanly separate and re-join the transients and tones with a palette of effects for each one is a complex puzzle.