Interesting Article about Jimmy Page's Attitude About the Recording Process

[Anderton]

The way he described recording was the way it was done back then, he just took it further. His emphasis on room sound is what intrigues me the most. There's no real room sound in smaller studios, my current studio certainly doesn't have any. Of course, the recordings I did in the 60s and 70s had room sound, and more recently, I was able to record several classical albums in a studio with a gorgeous room sound...it was a treat. If I ever move again, I think I'll pay attention to creating a room with a good room sound.

 

He also mentions the element of capturing emotion within that room sound, and implies that capturing parts fast is key. I have to agree with that. Ever since I became less fussy about setting up to record, just clicked on the record button, and let the chips fall where they may, I think it improved my songwriting.

[Notes_Norton]

I remember reading the liners on an old Stan Getz, Charlie Byrd album. They recorded the album in an old church because the liked the acoustics of the room.

 

I also know that in the places where we repeatedly gig, some rooms sound better than others, and those with huge picture windows on the 3 sides that the band faces sound the worst.

 

Notes ♫

[Dave Bryce]

Couldn't agree more with Mr. Page.

 

My recording life changed significantly after I converted our living room into a "live room" where me and a bunch of friends could play.  

 

I added a dedicated computer, an SSL SiX mixer (next to the MiniMoog), and an SSL 2+ interface and can now capture there as well. 😎

 

 

 

Yes, my wife is a saint. 🥰

 

dB

 

[KuruPrionz]

The room is a tricky one for me. Another smalll room studio, no "sound" there. I know of many rooms in my area that sound great, setting up a studio there is another subject entirely. Not going to happen. 

 

I NEVER try to get a recording to "sound perfect", I want it to sound "real". That doesn't mean it's once and done. I've started in on my fifth or sixth attempt to record a song I wrote, each previous time I've learned things that made the next version better and tried things that made the next version worse (which also brought more knowledge).

 

Current version I started from scratch, laid a drum loop groove that I can play to and did a single scratch track with acoustic guitar and vocals. 

 

I'm working on the drum part now, it's all MIDI. Using MODO Drum and available clips from the program to build a drum part that serves the song. 

That's going well. Next step is to do the tempo changes to the MIDI drum part, based on the song and the way I want it to feel. Changing tempo on MIDI does not change the sound at all and no pitch shifting is required like it would be with audio clips. There won't be any radical tempo shifts in this song or changes in the time signature, etc. 

A good song to learn the basics and hopefully get done this time around!

 

If not, I'll use the knowledge gained and do it again. I'm a huge fan of first or second takes, after that I move on. I can return if I totally hosed it but repeating, going piece by piece, etc. is not for me. 

 

A friend went to another studio in town and the engineer wanted him to record each and every word of the lyrics separately so they could be "perfect". It does sound good but I would have walked out of there at the mere suggestion, not my jam. 

 

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

A friend went to another studio in town and the engineer wanted him to record each and every word of the lyrics separately so they could be "perfect". It does sound good but I would have walked out of there at the mere suggestion, not my jam. 

 

OMG - has it really come to that? Wow. Again, I'll pull out that quote from Spice World, where the producer says "That was absolutely perfect...without actually being any good."

 

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

Yes, my wife is a saint. 🥰

 

Among other positive attributes

 

And yes, your space really does sound good!

[KuruPrionz]

1 minute ago, Anderton said:

 

OMG - has it really come to that? Wow. Again, I'll pull out that quote from Spice World, where the producer says "That was absolutely perfect...without actually being any good."

I think the recording engineer was just trying to squeeze a few more $$ out in studio time. 

If you have to do it one word at a time you should practice it every day for a week and just sing the whole thing in one go. 

If some parts are not within reach then the key probably needs changed. 

For every solution, there's a problem... 

[Anderton]

3 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

If you have to do it one word at a time you should practice it every day for a week and just sing the whole thing in one go. 

 

I agree, and that brings up something I've found...if I comp a part, use pitch correction, processing, etc. to get it "perfect" and then listen to it multiple times, if I sing the part over from scratch it's always MUCH better than the original.

[KenElevenShadows]

Page is right on with his recording process. He was innovative in that approach, often saying "distance equals depth". Those recordings sound amazing, better than just about anything else out there at the time as well as now.

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Anderton said:

 

I agree, and that brings up something I've found...if I comp a part, use pitch correction, processing, etc. to get it "perfect" and then listen to it multiple times, if I sing the part over from scratch it's always MUCH better than the original.

Yep, keeping it real keeps it real!!!

 

[Anderton]

So... I found a really good room sound convolution reverb, like a somewhat bright studio (not a hall or chamber, just a room). Then I put that in the master bus, with the mix about 10% wet / 90% dry. So, anything I played sounded like it was being recorded in a room, and any tracks that were playing back, sounded like they were playing back in a room.

 

Maybe I was getting confirmation bias from reading this thread...but I have to say, it was a different kind of experience. If anyone else tries this out, I'd be curious what you think. We may be on to something here.

[KuruPrionz]

12 hours ago, Anderton said:

So... I found a really good room sound convolution reverb, like a somewhat bright studio (not a hall or chamber, just a room). Then I put that in the master bus, with the mix about 10% wet / 90% dry. So, anything I played sounded like it was being recorded in a room, and any tracks that were playing back, sounded like they were playing back in a room.

 

Maybe I was getting confirmation bias from reading this thread...but I have to say, it was a different kind of experience. If anyone else tries this out, I'd be curious what you think. We may be on to something here.

I read your post this morning.

Last night I was messing about with a scratch track and put a very short, low level slapback echo on the vocal. Just vocals and acoustic guitar. I put CSR Hall Reverb on the master bus, turned the reverb time way down short and just put a tiny bit of it into the mix. Probably the same but different as your sound, a more or less small room sound but controlled - no flutter echoes. I like it, a cool variation. 

[Greg Mein]

It's an interesting article certainly but I figured most anyone who cared already knew about this. I'd be a lot more interested in deeper details; musician/amp placement, where the mics were (room mics, amp mics, etc.), what about the gobos and/or other absorption/deflection?

 

I've tried recording our Steinway and so far have not been too pleased with the results because, ironically, it always sounds like it's being recorded in a big room. Now I'll admit I haven't spent a whole lot of time trying different methods. When I went online to do some research it only made it more confusing, no two were doing it the same, often radically different in fact.

 

I can always go into the little studio room, use the FA-08 or whatever, record to MIDI and use one of the fine software emulations but here I have this amazing piano and a big room. I haven't tried for a while but I haven't given up yet either and so it goes.

 

 

 

[KenElevenShadows]

10 minutes ago, Greg Mein said:

It's an interesting article certainly but I figured most anyone who cared already knew about this. I'd be a lot more interested in deeper details; musician/amp placement, where the mics were (room mics, amp mics, etc.), what about the gobos and/or other absorption/deflection?

 

 

 

It is common knowledge for those who are into Jimmy Page and his music. He's also been saying that for years. But still, I am super happy that he gets acknowledged for that all the same since to me, he was so far ahead of his time, with Zeppelin's recordings sounding so much more dimensional than just about anything else around at the time.

 

I would love to know about those details as well. We hear about the common things such as the M160s up on the stairs at Headley Grange or that kind of thing, but not the typical microphone choice, room mics, amp mics, placement, and all that stuff.

 

Of course, given how mistrustful the band has been about journalists, it's little wonder there's not much about that anyway.

[Anderton]

18 hours ago, Greg Mein said:

I've tried recording our Steinway and so far have not been too pleased with the results because, ironically, it always sounds like it's being recorded in a big room. Now I'll admit I haven't spent a whole lot of time trying different methods. When I went online to do some research it only made it more confusing, no two were doing it the same, often radically different in fact.

 

Probably not what you want to hear, but moving the piano closer to the center of the room, away from the corner, would probably help...

[Anderton]

18 hours ago, KenElevenShadows said:

I would love to know about those details as well. We hear about the common things such as the M160s up on the stairs at Headley Grange or that kind of thing, but not the typical microphone choice, room mics, amp mics, placement, and all that stuff.

 

For the classical recordings, I used omnidirectional mics for the room. That avoids the coloration directional mics exhibit when sounds hit the sides. Also for whatever reason, they usually sounded better higher up than at instrument level. 

 

With classical guitar, there were also some instances where placing a ribbon mic behind the guitarist, with the null point pointing at the player, picked up room sounds well. I wanted to try mid-side, but ended up doing the usual, more conventional two mics approach.

 

The main problem I always had with amps was getting mics far enough away from anything that vibrated in response to the loud amp sounds. Of course that meant turning off the wires on snares, but it also meant going around the room and damping things that vibrated - this required strategic placement of duct tape, big heavy blankets used for other purposes, weights, etc.

 

Of course, Jimmy Page is by no means the only person who paid attention to rooom sounds while recording. (Check out Robin Trower's playing on Procol Harum 's "Juicy John Pink"). I think where Page innovated was by treating the room as a variable, not a fixed sound.

[Greg Mein]

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

Probably not what you want to hear, but moving the piano closer to the center of the room, away from the corner, would probably help...

That thought did occur to me and perhaps could make a difference. I had the movers position it as it sits so the top opens towards the wall and mics go under the "hood" from within the room. The piano wheels sit on plastic casters that will slide on the tile floor without great difficulty and I have a little space to maneuver it around without having to move a bunch of other stuff.

 

One of the frustrations is that I've been trying to do it all myself. I really need to have my wife playing it while I move things around or have someone else come over who can move things around while I play and listen. Actually I probably need three people; one to play and one to move things around while I'm in a different room listening on headphones. I should be able to make it happen but it's just not as simple as I fooled myself into believing, top quality vintage instrument and a good sized room looks good on paper but it's really only the start.

 

Mics are probably my weakest link, Studio Projects C1 and a Rode NT1-A are currently my only condensers. I'm confident that the UAD Apollo Solo should be up to the task albeit only having two inputs. I have other options if I thought I needed to use more mics but apparently some pro studios do it with just one. 

My impression is that I need a little less "room sound". I'll keep at it and see what happens, it's all in fun anyway!

[Sundown]

An interesting article, no doubt. I know there are rooms out there that sound great, but I’ve never really experienced one.  I’m pretty sure the huge live areas of a Pilchner Schoustal or Russ Berger Design Group facility sound wonderful (they should for the amount of money and effort put into them). Maybe I’ve been in a mega church or movie theater on occasion and commented on the acoustics, but most rooms I’ve been in sound like small rooms (which is generally a lousy sound).

 

Similar to the go-fast approach, my oldest brother and his high school rock band did a 2-track-live demo in ~1987 and it still sounds phenomenal (I’m biased of course). Sure it has mistakes, but it has this wonderful energy and authenticity. Because they honed their craft playing live, it sounds like a great live performance with the clarity and definition of a studio recording (though it’s very reverberant, which was in style at the time for hard rock). I was only 11 or 12 when they made it and I knew absolutely nothing about recording, but I can listen to it now and know that the engineer had good mic placement and live mixing skills. They did the 7-track EP in a day based on budget constraints. I’d love to get my hands on the original reels and master it for him, but I don’t know who has them anymore.

 

My new home studio is 21’ x 13’ but the ceiling is only 7-feet. The isolation is great and the bass response is good (something I’ll post on soon), but since I’m a keyboard player and it’s more akin to a control room, getting a decent ambience wasn’t in the cards. With a seven foot ceiling I knew it wasn’t achievable.

 

Like many of you, one day I would like to do a dedicated larger room (my new 21’ x 13’ setup is the largest I’ve had). I’ve always set up my rooms as live end / dead end, but the live end sounds quite dead. There is always a flutter echo or other flaw that I wind up trapping/absorbing. Maybe when my kids are grown and we decide to downsize or move I’ll do a ground-floor room (or room pair) with some serious cubic feet.

 

P.S. My wife is extremely supportive and put up with a 2-year, prolonged construction drama for my basement studio, but there ain’t no gear going in the living room... I’m still fighting the battle to add some aesthetically-pleasing bass traps and first reflection absorbers to our family room. Dave, you’ve got a keeper there … 

 

Todd