Controlling your soft synths (and plugin chain). How do you do it?

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

It's not for everyone but it's something that only synthesizers can bring to a party ...

 

This is simply not true. 😃

I have 3 amplifiers for my guitar that sport at least 14 effects (one of them has many more but it's not here right now) Including "synth' and reverse effects among others. They are fully programable with up to 12 programs each. With a guitar into an A/B box and out into 2 volume pedals, I could easily crossfade from a huge variety of tones. 

Recording? I'll just lay down multiple copy tracks of a good take, make some of them all crazy (you would not know what instrument I started with or what they were and that includes bass, piano, guitar, vocals etc.). 

 

Since there are pickups available for almost every instrument plus microphones there is nothing to stop anybody, regardless of their chosen instrument, from powerful and astonishing sound transitions. 😇

Synths are amazing but they don't own that particular space, nobody does. 

[Tusker]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

Synths are amazing but they don't own that particular space, nobody does. 

 

I don't think you and I are describing the same musical space at all. 😊

 

Every instrument dominates a particular musical space, that's why we humans have so many kinds of instruments. And of course there is a lot of overlap. 

 

Only a synthesizer can trigger note patterns at audio rates for example, although there are effects which can modulate sound at audio rates. Ring modulation is an example of such an effect. You can adjust a good ring modulator from a beautiful slow tremolo shimmer up to grungy and then metallic audio rates. However that is not the same as triggering note patterns at audio rates. A synth which is triggering audio at audio rates could be easily controlled by a guitar, a keyboard or something else. Keyboards are not needed. A guitar could do it too.

 

Below is an example of an analog sequencer being slowly pushed into audio rates to create a particular effect. What human could play that ending without automation? What human would want to? 😅

 

 

[NewImprov]

Great topic!

 

 I have gigged extensively with soft-synths for like 15 years. I am currently running a setup using an Arturia Keylab 61 and an Expressive É Touché as controllers for a Mac laptop running Mainstage. I kind of standardize the controller mappings so that I know from patch to patch what is knob/slider/etc is mapped to what parameter. For example, the farthest right slider is always master volume, and the 2-3 sliders next to it are volumes for the internal voices in the patch. Buttons control navigating through the set, forward, backwards, +10, -10, reset to top of set. Also, I have a button right below the master volume that sends all notes off, in case of stuck notes. The Touché controls expressive parameters, I have it set so that I can use the pitch bend with my thumb and the Touché with my fingers.

 

One cool thing about Mainstage is that you can program all the physical controllers to virtual visual controllers on the screen, and then map the virtual controllers to parameters. I initially thought this was an unnecessary step, but realized that it is pretty flexible. One thing it allows is to program/scale/edit parameters with the laptop when not attached to the all the physical controllers, and then have the connections work when attached.

 

I don't know if this is a MIDI 2.0 thing or not, but I would love to see controllers with electronic scribble strips under the controls, so that each controller is labelled for what it is doing in the current patch.

[johnchop]

18 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

...for the same reason keyboard companies rarely make rack modules anymore. People didn't buy them. 

 

At my seminars, I often ask how many people use a control surface, and how many mix with a mouse. It's always at least 20:1 in favor of the mouse.

 

As I've mentioned before, MIDI 2.0 has the potential to make controllers easy and consistent to use. As to if or when that happens, I have no idea.

 

But there's literally dozens of us!  Dozens!

 

That leaves Komplete Kontrol (I think?) as the last standing "hardware integration" platform, which falls short for me because it's not multitimbral, or multi anything really. It's just sort of barely enough as a synth interaction experience.

 

Curiously, Omnisphere's hardware integration gets at what I want but sort of backwards. It elicited an "that's neat!" when I moved the Filter 1 cutoff knob on my Virus TI desktop and saw Omnisphere respond. But... I've got the Virus, so... where exactly does Omnisphere come in here?

 

A knobby, slidery "generic synth" MIDI control surface would be a hell of a thing.

 

 

[Anderton]

29 minutes ago, johnchop said:

A knobby, slidery "generic synth" MIDI control surface would be a hell of a thing.

 

I'd like to see something the size of an OB-8 that's loaded with knobs, buttons, and tactile controllers like a ribbon strip - and no keys. It would have most controls set to common functions, like filters, envelopes, etc., based on MIDI 2.0 instrument profiles. The other hardware controls would be undedicated, and have scribble strips for writing down their functions. Presets would be for different synthesizers. The manufacturer could develop these presets, or you could make your own. Yes, one controller to rule them all

 

I'd buy one immediately, before they were discontinued because nobody thought that kind of thing was worth the price.

[Tusker]

55 minutes ago, NewImprov said:

I don't know if this is a MIDI 2.0 thing or not, but I would love to see controllers with electronic scribble strips under the controls, so that each controller is labelled for what it is doing in the current patch.

 

I'd love to see this also. 👍

 

Like the others here I hate forgetting what a knob or slider represents.

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Tusker said:

 

I don't think you and I are describing the same musical space at all. 😊

 

Every instrument dominates a particular musical space, that's why we humans have so many kinds of instruments. And of course there is a lot of overlap. 

 

Only a synthesizer can trigger note patterns at audio rates for example, although there are effects which can modulate sound at audio rates. Ring modulation is an example of such an effect. You can adjust a good ring modulator from a beautiful slow tremolo shimmer up to grungy and then metallic audio rates. However that is not the same as triggering note patterns at audio rates. A synth which is triggering audio at audio rates could be easily controlled by a guitar, a keyboard or something else. Keyboards are not needed. A guitar could do it too.

 

Below is an example of an analog sequencer being slowly pushed into audio rates to create a particular effect. What human could play that ending without automation? What human would want to? 😅

 

 

Thanks for a clearer explanation!

Live, yes there is no other option.

Recently while experimenting with recording I discovered that stretching and shrinking MIDI tracks does not affect their pitch, only the tempo. 

In theory if not in reality, one could spend the time with a MIDI loop adjusting the tempos to ones satisfaction.

I haven't done that (yet) but I might try it. I have taken MIDI tracks for drums and stretched/shrunk (shrank?😘) them to double or half the length and then output them as audio files. When you take the half length track and double length track as audio and stretch/shrink them back to the original length you get drums an octave lower and higher playing in perfect sync with the original track. That's pretty cool.

 

I saw ELP do this exact thing on stage, great band and especially live. 😇

[Tusker]

28 minutes ago, Anderton said:

 

I'd like to see something the size of an OB-8 that's loaded with knobs, buttons, and tactile controllers like a ribbon strip - and no keys.

 

👍  As you might imagine, the "no keys" part is a feature and not a bug for many keyboardists because musical instruments are personal. Should we expect MIDI 2.0 improve the workflow in the "mixer controller" segment (SSL UF8, Behringer X Touch) which is often defined by Mackie HUI standards?

[David Emm]

I like it when the Jiffy Pop pans rise up behind the Moog. Too bad they don't stay there long enough to pop. Popcorn-as-special-effect. 🍿⚡

[Tusker]

19 hours ago, NewImprov said:

The Touché controls expressive parameters, I have it set so that I can use the pitch bend with my thumb and the Touché with my fingers.

You are describing a very advanced rig. 👌

 

Could I ask… Are you saying that you are positioning Touche just beyond mod wheel? What sort of expressive mappings are you controlling with Touche?

[JoJoB3]

Try out Cantabile (lot's of control and more)

[octa]

A couple months ago I played a comedy cover show, where I hold down guitars/synths/horns/more on 2 keyboard rig. (Saga "on the loose", the Tubes "she's a beauty", Yes "owner of a lonely heart" and similar repertoire) Being new to Mainstage, had a real tough time assigning sliders/MW/exp. pedal. Things would stop working altogether and I'd fiddle with it for hours/days and started over several times. . Switched focus to doing all assigning inside Omnisphere, saving the "multi", and then loading it into a channel in a Mainstage patch. . Things went much more smoothly that way. Midi learn in Omnisphere, and Stack/Live mode work very well. -- OT: I am however disappointed that the MacBook Air M1 doesn't handle bigger sample pianos like Garritan and Modern U well. Crackle crackle, & I don't want to buffer above 64 due to latency. . Luckily, it is very useful for synths etc. and I'm happy enough.

 

 

[Reezekeys]

19 minutes ago, octa said:

OT: I am however disappointed that the MacBook Air M1 doesn't handle bigger sample pianos like Garritan and Modern U well. Crackle crackle, & I don't want to buffer above 64 due to latency.

 

Something doesn't sound right. I can do 64 samples with the Native Instrument Grandeur in Kontakt on an almost ten-year-old Intel MacBook Pro (late 2013). Are the pianos you name that much more processor-intensive? Or, maybe there's something else in your rig sucking up processor juice - are some of them using Rosetta 2? Could be an issue mixing that and Apple Silicon native stuff. This video shows what these M-processors can do, though it's showing a MacBook Pro, not an Air:  https://youtu.be/DoaBk6o6WRg

 

[octa]

17 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Something doesn't sound right. I can do 64 samples with the Native Instrument Grandeur in Kontakt on an almost ten-year-old Intel MacBook Pro (late 2013). Are the pianos you name that much more processor-intensive? Or, maybe there's something else in your rig sucking up processor juice - are some of them using Rosetta 2? Could be an issue mixing that and Apple Silicon native stuff. This video shows what these M-processors can do, though it's showing a MacBook Pro, not an Air:  https://youtu.be/DoaBk6o6WRg

 

Lately, I'm digging the KeyScape "LA Custom C7" Grand Piano, and it will work for days without crackles. . But Garritan/Modern U start acting up after 15-30 minutes of playing time. . M1 has 2TB internal SSD and 16 GB Ram. . Have messed around with "ram allocation" settings etc. but still acts up. Not sure what's up with it. -- Tried several of the VSL Synchron 30 day demos, and they performed mostly well too. Memory-wise, they use quite large samples. 🤷‍♂️

[Al Coda]

On 1/6/2023 at 4:06 PM, Reezekeys said:

Here's another somewhat undocumented A800 feature. You can send any PC number directly (without bank select unfortunately). It involves the keypad which you may notice has numbers in faint grey text underneath the buttons (absolutely invisible on a stage!). The one at the bottom left is labeled "SHIFT." With the two arrow keys at the top, move the cursor in the display to "PGM CHANGE" if it's not there already (that's where you've been doing your scrolling). Press and hold "SHIFT", then you have a numeric keypad to type in a PC number (0 - 127) using those almost invisible numbers. Continue to hold SHIFT, then press the "enter" knob to the right of the display. There's your PC, maybe not in a "fraction of a second"! 🙂 In addition to the numbers being almost invisible, the layout is completely different from a standard numeric keypad! Better than nothing?

 

Yeah, thanks a lot, that´s for sure better than nothing !

 

 

A.C.

[NewImprov]

On 1/7/2023 at 6:10 AM, Tusker said:

You are describing a very advanced rig. 👌

 

Could I ask… Are you saying that you are positioning Touche just beyond mod wheel? What sort of expressive mappings are you controlling with Touche?

The Touché and Keylab both sit on top of my Rhodes, the Keylab on Ken Rich stackers, the Touché on the Rhodes just to the left of the Keylab. This puts the pad surface of the Touché on about the same level as the panel of the Keylab, and located so I can use my left thumb on the pitch and mod wheels, and fingers on the Touché. I should take a photo next time I'm at the studio.

 

The mappings for the Touché vary from patch to patch, usually as I'm programming, I'll find some parameter I want to control, and map it to one of the Touché's axes. A recent fave has been using Logic's Alchemy, having front pressure control the Transform Pad position, and set up a number of patch variations in the 8-slots available, and use the Touché to mor[ph between them.

 

I've had the Touché for several years, and feel like I'm only recently getting a real handle on how to play and program for it.

[Tusker]

15 hours ago, NewImprov said:

That’s very helpful. And a picture would be great but for now your descriptions are very understandable. You allude to this indirectly ... I don’t find the side-to-side Touche shiftings to be natural for pitch bend either. It’s better sometimes to treat them as generic return-to-default controllers, as which they are brilliant. Sometimes they feel natural for one-tailed vibrato also.
 

The Alchemy morph feature is amazing I agree. Morphing is, I think a Nord invention (NL2?, NL3?) and so very appropriate to soft synths. I wish more soft synths would save us the bother of linking (for example) 8 knobs to a controller. The main issue is binary or stepped variables but there are ways to mitigate that issue.
 

I am often amazed how often when you reduce the effects on an Alchemy patch, a much more beautiful patch is hiding underneath all that makeup, lol. Thanks!

[NewImprov]

On 1/10/2023 at 1:11 AM, Tusker said:

That’s very helpful. And a picture would be great but for now your descriptions are very understandable. You allude to this indirectly ... I don’t find the side-to-side Touche shiftings to be natural for pitch bend either. It’s better sometimes to treat them as generic return-to-default controllers, as which they are brilliant. Sometimes they feel natural for one-tailed vibrato also.
 

The Alchemy morph feature is amazing I agree. Morphing is, I think a Nord invention (NL2?, NL3?) and so very appropriate to soft synths. I wish more soft synths would save us the bother of linking (for example) 8 knobs to a controller. The main issue is binary or stepped variables but there are ways to mitigate that issue.
 

I am often amazed how often when you reduce the effects on an Alchemy patch, a much more beautiful patch is hiding underneath all that makeup, lol. Thanks!

Yeah, I kind of ignored Alchemy for a lot of years when it was first bundled into Logic, largely because the presets seemed kind of generic, and deluged in effects. It's only been in the last year or so that I've started to delve into it, and I'm finding it's becoming one of my favorite softsynths for pure synthesis. It really has its own sound when you start to dry off the patches.

 

I first encountered parameter morphing on the Nord Lead 1, it's one of the reasons that I still keep and love my NL1.

[Stokely]

Alchemy is great, and I also ignored it.  Which was especially nutty, because I'd used it previously when it was owned by Camel and sold by itself for more than Logic does now  

Agreed that the deluge of fx on many of the patches is annoying.  I tend to remove them unless they are integral to the patch (e.g. the XY pads are doing something interesting with them.) That goes for any instrument plugin though, I like to have control of fx in the DAW for the most part.

Just in case anyone didn't know, there is a quality setting in Alchemy (similar to the ones in synths like Repro and Diva).  I think it may default to the 2nd-best setting.   I've compared to the best setting on all these instruments and on most patches the difference is pretty minor--and can cause big cpu hits.  I usually wait until I'm in mix mode, set the setting to the highest and then freeze or bounce the track into audio if I need to.   A bunch of subtle differences can add up.