Thinking about using an iPad...

[yannis D]

On 12/7/2022 at 4:55 AM, Docbop said:

So who was it only  SNL that keep saying.... Let's Get Small.      Think it was Steve Martin.

 

So why go with a big cumbersome iPad when you could just use your iPhone 6.

 

 

This guy has numerous good videos in his channel

Of course this one was out before AUM was born, so -with AUM or Camelot- this proceedure is even easier to setup and lighter on the CPU. 

For them who still have an iphone 6 it's the way to go, but for newer iphone models one has to use a designated sound card... So an ipad with an audio jack output might be an easier option... Where I am iphone 6 has gone around 100 euros/dollars, and i'm seriously thinking of purchasing one as a lighter ipad alternative

 

[Reezekeys]

6 hours ago, yannis D said:

So an ipad with an audio jack output might be an easier option... Where I am iphone 6 has gone around 100 euros/dollars, and i'm seriously thinking of purchasing one as a lighter ipad alternative

 

Exactly, an iPhone or iPad with a headphone jack makes things much easier for the musician. As I posted above, I'm about to do my first gig with my touring band using only my iPhone SE (original 2016 model). I believe it's one of the most powerful iPhones with a headphone jack (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong!). The iPhone 6 may be a riskier purchase if you want to run multiple virtual instruments. The SE 2016 also has the distinction of being among the smallest iPhones ever made - great for portability, not so great of you have to edit anything (though I imagine it would be difficult on any iPhone other than maybe the "max" models).

 

I have an identical music rig on my iPad Air 2, a device whose processor is one generation older. It works, at an increased buffer setting (256 vs 128 on my iPhone) but I do see the DSP meter on AUM get into the 80 - 90% range.

[yannis D]

23 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Exactly, an iPhone or iPad with a headphone jack makes things much easier for the musician. As I posted above, I'm about to do my first gig with my touring band using only my iPhone SE (original 2016 model). I believe it's one of the most powerful iPhones with a headphone jack (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong!). The iPhone 6 may be a riskier purchase if you want to run multiple virtual instruments. The SE 2016 also has the distinction of being among the smallest iPhones ever made - great for portability, not so great of you have to edit anything (though I imagine it would be difficult on any iPhone other than maybe the "max" models).

 

I have an identical music rig on my iPad Air 2, a device whose processor is one generation older. It works, at an increased buffer setting (256 vs 128 on my iPhone) but I do see the DSP meter on AUM get into the 80 - 90% range.

I admire the fact you're doing big gigs with just an iphone. All my big gigs are at least a Nord or any other big keyboard and a MacBook laptop with Mainstage. I tried once to sneak into my rig my ipad with AUM and several apps but the ground noise made it impossible to use it and I quit since. But i really want to try again, this time with a sound interface to save me from these last minute fail factors

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, yannis D said:

I tried once to sneak into my rig my ipad with AUM and several apps but the ground noise made it impossible to use it and I quit since. But i really want to try again, this time with a sound interface to save me from these last minute fail factors

 

Interesting you say this because I consider it a plus that my laptop, iPhone & iPad have a headphone jack. To me it's an advantage to not need an extra piece (audio interface) with its attendant requirements of power and cabling. I've run my headphone outputs directly into my powered speakers for local gigs, and my laptop into DI boxes for the bigger gigs, and can't remember the last time I heard any kind of noise. Of course, going with a headphone jack assumes that stereo output is all that's needed.

 

2 hours ago, yannis D said:

I admire the fact you're doing big gigs with just an iphone

 

About to do! Tonight will be the first time! Fingers are crossed but I do feel it will go well since I have many hours at home testing & tweaking.

[yannis D]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Interesting you say this because I consider it a plus that my laptop, iPhone & iPad have a headphone jack. To me it's an advantage to not need an extra piece (audio interface) with its attendant requirements of power and cabling. I've run my headphone outputs directly into my powered speakers for local gigs, and my laptop into DI boxes for the bigger gigs, and can't remember the last time I heard any kind of noise. Of course, going with a headphone jack assumes that stereo output is all that's needed.

 

 

About to do! Tonight will be the first time! Fingers are crossed but I do feel it will go well since I have many hours at home testing & tweaking.

Actually noiz buzz from the cable is not something very common, but it happened to me right before a gig in a town 500 km from Athens where I live. Thankfully I had my Nord so no big deal, but it distilled in me the fear of solely using an ipad. I have some small gigs in the future so I will probably try the iPad thing along with my Nord - even if something goes wrong with that I will still have the Nord for the bread and butter. 

As far as your gig, break a leg.. looking forward for your report tomorrow 👍

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Soundcheck over, and guess what? Buzz! It was the wall wart for my keyboard, a ground loop through my in-ears mixer. I thought I would play it safe and use the AC adapter instead of powering it via USB which I was doing without issues at home. That’ll teach me. I unplugged it and set the keyboard to use USB power and the noise is gone. One hour to showtime.

[yannis D]

6 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Soundcheck over, and guess what? Buzz! It was the wall wart for my keyboard, a ground loop through my in-ears mixer. I thought I would play it safe and use the AC adapter instead of powering it via USB which I was doing without issues at home. That’ll teach me. I unplugged it and set the keyboard to use USB power and the noise is gone. One hour to showtime.

Wow! So the buzz might have been caused from either from the Nord or the in-ear pads, not the iPad. But every time I use my M Audio Axiom 49 with the iPad at home, the AXIOM needs to be powered separately, cause the USB hub only provides power to the pad. I need to check it out. 

Waiting for your full report!

[stoken6]

15 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Soundcheck over, and guess what? Buzz! It was the wall wart for my keyboard, a ground loop through my in-ears mixer. I thought I would play it safe and use the AC adapter instead of powering it via USB which I was doing without issues at home. That’ll teach me. I unplugged it and set the keyboard to use USB power and the noise is gone. One hour to showtime.

So your keyboard was powered from the USB connection to the iPad via the USB dongle? And the lightning connector on the USB dongle was passing power to both iPad and keyboard?

 

Cheers, Mike

[Reezekeys]

19 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

So your keyboard was powered from the USB connection to the iPad via the USB dongle? And the lightning connector on the USB dongle was passing power to both iPad and keyboard?

 

Exactly. My next post is more detailed (i.e., my more typical "novel" 🙂 )

[Reezekeys]

10 hours ago, yannis D said:

every time I use my M Audio Axiom 49 with the iPad at home, the AXIOM needs to be powered separately, cause the USB hub only provides power to the pad.

 

Is there anything else attached to your hub that's drawing current? I use an original iPad 11-watt cube and it powers both the phone and my A800 Pro. The phone charges at the same time. When I use my iPad instead of the phone, it's a little different story - I see the iPad's battery charge reduce very slightly over the course of time. So, the cube can't run my keyboard and charge the iPad at the same time, but the rate of discharge is slowed considerably and I don't worry about getting through any gig. What might be making this work for me is that I don't use a hub - don't need one. The charging cube goes to my USB3 CCK and the USB cable from there goes to my A800; that's it.

 

So... the gig - it went fine! No glitches at all. I think this setup is a keeper. For the rest of this run I'll still have the laptop behind me, connected and ready to switch to instantly if needed, but this is really from an overabundance of caution. Five more shows to go, which should be a good test. After that I think the laptop will be gone from the stage.

 

I improvised a way to mount the phone, as I didn't want to call attention to it. Thanks to the small size of my A800, the arms from the Apex stand extend beyond it, which gave me room to attach the clip stand underneath the keyboard. I don't really need to see the phone since there's nothing to do on it while I'm playing - everything is mapped to buttons, sliders & pads on my A800. For these first few gigs I wanted to keep an eye on the VU meter monitoring the headphone out. I noticed a few instances of my rhodes clipping slightly on my solos, which tells me I have some level adjustments to make. Other than that, all is good!

 

[yannis D]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Is there anything else attached to your hub that's drawing current? I use an original iPad 11-watt cube and it powers both the phone and my A800 Pro. The phone charges at the same time. When I use my iPad instead of the phone, it's a little different story - I see the iPad's battery charge reduce very slightly over the course of time. So, the cube can't run my keyboard and charge the iPad at the same time, but the rate of discharge is slowed considerably and I don't worry about getting through any gig. What might be making this work for me is that I don't use a hub - don't need one. The charging cube goes to my USB3 CCK and the USB cable from there goes to my A800; that's it.

 

So... the gig - it went fine! No glitches at all. I think this setup is a keeper. For the rest of this run I'll still have the laptop behind me, connected and ready to switch to instantly if needed, but this is really from an overabundance of caution. Five more shows to go, which should be a good test. After that I think the laptop will be gone from the stage.

 

I improvised a way to mount the phone, as I didn't want to call attention to it. Thanks to the small size of my A800, the arms from the Apex stand extend beyond it, which gave me room to attach the clip stand underneath the keyboard. I don't really need to see the phone since there's nothing to do on it while I'm playing - everything is mapped to buttons, sliders & pads on my A800. For these first few gigs I wanted to keep an eye on the VU meter monitoring the headphone out. I noticed a few instances of my rhodes clipping slightly on my solos, which tells me I have some level adjustments to make. Other than that, all is good!

 

No, nothing else was attached to my hub. I might try to keep the M Audio keyboard charged by its own wall mart and let the iPad uncharged, as the battery is still very strong and there's no danger during a normal 2 hours-ish gig.

Nice it worked for you! I still got to do my tests in rehearsals before I try the iPad/keyboard combination on stage again.  

And please, don't retire your laptop. Not just yet. These things fail when nobody's expecting them to fail. 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

14 minutes ago, yannis D said:

I might try to keep the M Audio keyboard charged by its own wall mart and let the iPad uncharged, as the battery is still very strong and there's no danger during a normal 2 hours-ish gig.

 

Using my wall wart was what caused the buzz, and even if I left the iPad/iPhone uncharged there's still the USB connection to the keyboard and the headphone output to create a possible ground loop. Hope it works for you! (I just realized that I didn't try lifting the ground on the DI when I first heard that buzz last night - that might have fixed things. Doesn't matter though, I was sure my iPad cube could power everything).

[EricBarker]

So my question is… which iPad should I get? Is power going to matter much for live performance? I hear a lot of people talking DAW production, which tends to be far more CPU intensive, and I don’t have any interest in that.

 

I’m primarily buying one for charts, but figured I might as well get something that could also serve for performance, I’ve been wondering about hedging in that direction since I’m not using Mainstage as much.

 

I figure it would be more bang for my buck to go with an older referb. Maybe an iPad Air 10.9. Pros seem overkill for my needs.

 

Any suggestions or info?

[Jose EB5AGV]

I use a couple iPad Air 2, one mainly for Forscore and the other as a sound module. I have all software installed on both, just in case, so they are easily interchangeable. The audio connector is a big plus for easy interfacing.

 

[Reezekeys]

15 hours ago, EricBarker said:

So my question is… which iPad should I get?

15 hours ago, EricBarker said:

I’m primarily buying one for charts

 

My old iPad Air 2 does fine with ForScore so I would say almost any iPad you can find will work for that. My Air 2 also runs AUM with a few AUv3 instruments and effects, mostly acoustic piano & rhodes, strings, organ, etc., the usual old-fart stuff. I also have Synthmaster 2 which imo is a great iOS synth. The Air 2, being an eight-year-old device, is definitely sweating if I layer sounds and play a ton of notes with the sustain pedal down. I've hit the DSP wall a few times (resulting in just a few minor click sounds, not an audio meltdown!) and the percentage meter in AUM can get to 80 - 90%. If I don't deliberately push things like this, the Air 2 works great for my casual gigs, and I can run ForScore along with AUM so I get it all. I wish I had a bigger screen though - my old eyes don't do too well with the iPad in portrait mode with a full page displayed. Charts are much easier to read in landscape but then you're having to scroll a lot since only half a page is displayed. If chart reading is utmost in your requirements, unfortunately the bigger iPad Pro is the best choice with its 12.9" screen - but imo it's total overkill in terms of DSP juice for an app like ForScore. You're paying a hefty premium for processor power that's not getting used. Seeing what my ancient Air 2 can do, I would guess that any iPad from the last two or three years would have more than enough processor power to run ForScore and a bunch of AUv3s simultaneously.

 

Probably the best bargain in iPads right now is the 9th-gen regular model. It's still in Apple's current lineup even though the 10th gen is out. I see this 9th-gen iPad on sale at Target for $280! That's ridiculous and I'm tempted to grab it. The screen size is the only bummer - just a few tenths of an inch larger than my current Air 2. But, it's the last iPad with a headphone jack - and that, imo, is a big plus since it avoids needing a hub and external interface to run my music rig. I do like the USB-C docks that attach to the newer iPads with that port. Those will give you audio, power and USB connections without the "dangling dongle" look. Sorry for the long post and good luck!

[yannis D]

iPad 9th gen.

The screen size is just right for scores and has (as mentioned) a jack output. Not expensive either. 

 

 

[EricBarker]

Yeah, I’m definitely leaning toward a 9th Gen with 256GB. I’d love to step up to a 4th Gen Air with the 10.9in screen. But it’s almost impossible to find a refurb, and new is $$$. Too bad the 9th Gen is still Lightning, I’d love a USB-C, but I’m guessing the moment you go USC-C you lose the headphone Jack?

[uhoh7]

I've been using a 12.9 2nd gen pro, which I love because it's easy to read music and plays VSTs etc pretty well. But know that the 5th and 6th gen 12.9" pros are in another league for chips. M1 an 2 chips like laptops and 8 GB ram. That's WAY more processing power than anything earlier, including my current rig. You would just get the USB-C connector to add midi and audio out. BT midi....you don't hear great things. 256 GB would be fine, maybe 128 would work. You can find 5th gen 12.9s for around $800 NIB. 

 

That would last a long time.

 

PS each model ipad has a unique "generation" path. 6th is latest for the 12.9 pro.

[stoken6]

6 hours ago, EricBarker said:

I’m guessing the moment you go USC-C you lose the headphone Jack?

Lord Apple giveth with one hand, and taketh away with the other...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Docbop]

9 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Lord Apple giveth with one hand, and taketh away with the other...

 

Cheers, Mike.

That's one of reasons I like my new MacBook Air M2 it still has a headphone jack along with two USB-C ports and magsafe connector.   I wonder if the Apple engineer that designed got fired for making a device that is so functional.   

[EricBarker]

I should mention a ballpark, I see a number of refurbs that would work fine for about $400, I don’t want to creep up much from that. I’m just getting my feet wet with this. Maybe I’ll go all in later, but I’m hoping not. I’m on a 70s hardware kick recently and happy there, just need something to get me by when band leaders want more than piano, organ, or minimoog. 

[Reezekeys]

43 minutes ago, Docbop said:

That's one of reasons I like my new MacBook Air M2 it still has a headphone jack along with two USB-C ports and magsafe connector.   I wonder if the Apple engineer that designed got fired for making a device that is so functional.   

 

Of course - what laptop doesn't have a headphone jack, or better connectivity than most tablets? Apples & oranges imo, although the gap does seem to be shrinking. Sure, if you take a new iPad Pro, add memory and more storage, then get that new keyboard/trackpad to go along with it, you're spending as much or more than for a laptop. After using a laptop full-time on gigs since 2006, I'm now very happy to leave it home along with its SKB case. A little clip-on stand and my whole rig is now in the palm of my hands - or my pocket when I use my iPhone. Based on the performance of my eight-year-old Air 2, I think the current base model 9th-gen iPad would work just fine for any kind of gig I'd do - for under $300. What $300 laptop will do that?

[Docbop]

24 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Of course - what laptop doesn't have a headphone jack, or better connectivity than most tablets? Apples & oranges imo, although the gap does seem to be shrinking. Sure, if you take a new iPad Pro, add memory and more storage, then get that new keyboard/trackpad to go along with it, you're spending as much or more than for a laptop. After using a laptop full-time on gigs since 2006, I'm now very happy to leave it home along with its SKB case. A little clip-on stand and my whole rig is now in the palm of my hands - or my pocket when I use my iPhone. Based on the performance of my eight-year-old Air 2, I think the current base model 9th-gen iPad would work just fine for any kind of gig I'd do - for under $300. What $300 laptop will do that?

 

I was just talking about a headphone jack and how much functionality is added by having one.   Also Apple keeps eliminating ports and I've never been a fan of dongles and hubs hanging off devices more point of potential failure (thinking as an old SysAdmin).     So alls good you like iPads  I like things with built-in ports.    The marketplace is happy. 

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, Docbop said:

So alls good you like iPads  I like things with built-in ports.

 

I like things with built-in ports too! It’s about what you want to accept as a compromise. I remember Apple getting praise for the latest MacBook Pros putting ports back that they had previously taken away. So, to say they "keep eliminating" ports is not 100% accurate. I also think that musicians running virtual instrument rigs aren't on their priority list of who to build devices for. Tough luck for us using i-devices!

 

I'm also with you in not being a fan of the hanging dongles (hongles?). I try to route the wires in a way to put as little weight or stress on the lightning connector as I can. This is a drag, but so is bringing my SKB Studio Flyer to a gig, setting up the laptop, and routing power, USB and audio cables to it. I used to not mind it much, but seeing how much easier the iPad/iPhone world makes schleppage & setup, I now mind it a little more! At least there's the choice. When sonic quality and playability has to be the top priority, for my own case using the devices I have, my laptop is still the superior music-maker - but the gap seems to be closing.

 

[jazzpiano88]

3 hours ago, Docbop said:

 

I was just talking about a headphone jack and how much functionality is added by having one.   Also Apple keeps eliminating ports and I've never been a fan of dongles and hubs hanging off devices more point of potential failure (thinking as an old SysAdmin).     So alls good you like iPads  I like things with built-in ports.    The marketplace is happy. 

 

I think that was Jonny Ive.   Now that he's history, maybe functionality will take on a higher priority.

[uhoh7]

12 hours ago, Docbop said:

 

I was just talking about a headphone jack and how much functionality is added by having one.   Also Apple keeps eliminating ports and I've never been a fan of dongles and hubs hanging off devices more point of potential failure (thinking as an old SysAdmin).     So alls good you like iPads  I like things with built-in ports.    The marketplace is happy. 

https://a.co/d/ea1PNh2

Simple USBC adapter with audio USB3 and HDMI out, power in.

 

 

I agree it would be nice to have ports on board, and it's an arrogant design. But laptops are useless for musicians who read music and play with varied setups. A 12.9 iPad can rest on any music stand, or your upright piano. You have the foot bluetooth thingy to change pages. These are in wide use for good reason. 

 

Professional church organists, conservatory students, Jam session addicts, they love the iPads, not the laptops. In the studio and for DAWs the laptops are better.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, uhoh7 said:

https://a.co/d/ea1PNh2

Simple USBC adapter with audio USB3 and HDMI out, power in.

 

But it looks like you can't use it with a case (unless maybe you can modify the case), and I don't know if I'd want to gig with an iPad without a protective case. Also, personally, I'd probably rather sacrifice the HDMI to get a second USB-C connector. The USB-C that's on it will almost always have to be used just for power, so that leaves you only with the single USB-A, which is limited to USB 2.0 speeds.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

But it looks like you can't use it with a case (unless maybe you can modify the case), and I don't know if I'd want to gig with an iPad without a protective case.

 

My iPad is in a protective case until I get to the gig, then it comes out so I can mount it to the clip stand that's clamped to my keyboard stand. I consider it "protected" then, seeing as it's secured and out of the way of anything that might contact it. Am I doing this wrong?

 

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

The USB-C that's on it will almost always have to be used just for power, so that leaves you only with the single USB-A, which is limited to USB 2.0 speeds.

 

Not an issue for gigging, not for me anyway. My controller uses USB2 (I believe most do), which is more than fast enough for the purpose.

[AnotherScott]

7 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

My iPad is in a protective case until I get to the gig, then it comes out so I can mount it to the clip stand that's clamped to my keyboard stand. I consider it "protected" then, seeing as it's secured and out of the way of anything that might contact it. Am I doing this wrong?

 

I guess it's a matter of having the confidence in your mount. :-) Some people mount them to mic stands, for example, and there's always a chance the whole mic stand goes over at some point, like someone accidentally tugs at a cable while breaking down, before you've had a chance to remove the iPad... But if you have a good safe and secure place for it while it's actually in use, then I guess that's okay. This is something I still deal with. I prefer to use my iPad Pro 12.9 for charts/lyrics, and I haven't yet found my ideal mounting approach that works regardless of which keyboards I'm bringing or which keyboard stand I'm using. The most "universal" approach is to put it on its own music stand, but that's another piece of gear to bother with, bigger and heavier than the iPad itself. ;-) And even then, yeah, a music stand can be knocked over.

 

7 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Not an issue for gigging, not for me anyway. My controller uses USB2 (I believe most do), which is more than fast enough for the purpose.

 

Yes, USB 2 is fine for MIDI, the limitation might come if you also want to use the iPad for other purposes. Or even just for doing backups and such. But maybe the answer would be that you just don't connect this hub then.

[Reezekeys]

25 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I guess it's a matter of having the confidence in your mount. 🙂 Some people mount them to mic stands, for example, and there's always a chance the whole mic stand goes over at some point, like someone accidentally tugs at a cable while breaking down, before you've had a chance to remove the iPad... But if you have a good safe and secure place for it while it's actually in use, then I guess that's okay.

 

Absolutely agree about a mic stand or music stand not being the safest spot for an iPad! I might be in the minority with my method - only possible because the small keyboard leaves space on my x-stand's arm to mount the clip stand to. I feel OK about this:

 

 

25 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Yes, USB 2 is fine for MIDI, the limitation might come if you also want to use the iPad for other purposes. Or even just for doing backups and such. But maybe the answer would be that you just don't connect this hub then.

 

Just found this hub - which gives you audio and two USB3 ports along with USB-C for charging:

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09DGRJMYK