Advice on a Fantom 07 based rig.

[CEB]

Do we have a decent Fantom 0 user base here?

 

The old man is falling apart.  My hernia is getting worse.  My legs are getting worse and I am getting weak.  I cant handle my Kronos 2-88 anymore by myself.  So ....

 

1) Is the patch management functionality on Fantom 0 close to Kronos SetList?

 

2) Can I setup 88 key based keyboard zones/ splits and layers in the Fantom 0 and simply MIDI in a lighter weight 88 key weighted board into Fantom 0 and play the Fantom setups?  .... Like Elze does with Kronos 61s.  I hoping for a plug and play solution and not having to program the 88.

 

I'm wanting to use a Fantom because I'm hooked on using the built in SP404 pad samplers Roland implements in the Fantoms and FAs.  The flagship Fantom 7 is an option but I getting close to musical retirement and not really wanting to spend that much money at this point.  I will need to look at the polyphony and other specs.

 

Thanks for your input.

[kaptainkeys]

11 minutes ago, CEB said:

1) Is the patch management functionality on Fantom 0 close to Kronos SetList?

 

2) Can I setup 88 key based keyboard zones/ splits and layers in the Fantom 0 and simply MIDI in a lighter weight 88 key weighted board into Fantom 0 and play the Fantom setups?  .... Like Elze does with Kronos 61s.  I hoping for a plug and play solution and not having to program the 88.

1) not sure, but I think it has some kind of live set mode

2) you definitely can, I've seen a number of people on the internet connect external boards to their Fantom-0, defining splits and layers from within the performance mode on the Roland, including our very own @EscapeRocks.  One thing you'll have to keep in mind is that the Fantom's VTW organ engine is limited to midi channel 2, so if you still want to control that from the internal keyboard, you'll have to have the external board not sending any note data on channel 2

[Moonglow]

1.) Not for me. I like to see the specific name of the song or program I’m using.

 

2.) Yes, for sure.

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

One thing you'll have to keep in mind is that the Fantom's VTW organ engine is limited to midi channel 2, so if you still want to control that from the internal keyboard, you'll have to have the external board not sending any note data on channel 2

Good point. Although if partnering the Fantom 0 with a hammer-action 88, it's likely the organ won't be "sent downstairs", but would remain played from the Fantom's local keyboard.

 

Cheers, Mike

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, CEB said:

1) Is the patch management functionality on Fantom 0 close to Kronos SetList?

 

The equivalent of Kronos Combis are Scenes, but they are presented on screen in a manner similar to Kronos Set List, with 512 locations (32 pages of 16), smaller Note fields, though the only "re-ordering" available is via re-writing them into the desired locations (e.g. no "insert" or "delete").

 

The equivalent of Kronos Set Lists (i.e. easily re-orderable pointers to the scenes/combis rather than the scenes/combis themselves) are the Scene Chains, and again, there are 32 pages of 16 (though the screen can only show the full names of 8 of them at a time, via a scrollable list). They are selectable via the screen or via hard buttons.

 

3 hours ago, Moonglow said:

1.) Not for me. I like to see the specific name of the song or program I’m using.

 

You could choose to name the Scene based on the song or program it's associated with. In fact, IIRC, the default name is the name of the program (Tone) it contains (or the first one, if it contains multiple. But I'm not near it now to confirm.

 

4 hours ago, CEB said:

2) Can I setup 88 key based keyboard zones/ splits and layers in the Fantom 0 and simply MIDI in a lighter weight 88 key weighted board into Fantom 0 and play the Fantom setups?  ....  I hoping for a plug and play solution and not having to program the 88.

4 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

2) you definitely can, I've seen a number of people on the internet connect external boards to their Fantom-0, defining splits and layers from within the performance mode on the Roland, including our very own @EscapeRocks. 

 

I don't think that's true (despite Moonglow's concurrence as well). You can plug in the 88 to trigger the Fantom sounds, but if you want to split multiple Fantom sounds, AFAIK, you'll have to program those splits on the 88. External MIDI does not respect the key range (split points) of the parts as defined internally on the Fantom. (It does on the Montage/MODX, which I'm mentioning for a reason that I'll get back to.)

 

4 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

One thing you'll have to keep in mind is that the Fantom's VTW organ engine is limited to midi channel 2, so if you still want to control that from the internal keyboard, you'll have to have the external board not sending any note data on channel 2

 

I don't think that one's right either... The VTW organ definitely has to be on Part 2, but IIRC, you can define what channel you want Part 2 to receive on, it's not locked to only receiving on channel 2. (That's a Montage/MODX restriction, you can't reassign what channels Parts receive on, but the Fantom's don't have that restriction. Between this and the previous one, I wonder if you were mixing up the MIDI implementations of the Yamaha and Roland here.)

 

 

 

[Moonglow]

25 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

You could choose to name the Scene based on the song or program it's associated with. In fact, IIRC, the default name is the name of the program (Tone) it contains (or the first one, if it contains multiple. But I'm not near it now to confirm.

 

Drawing upon memory (always a risky thing), in Chain mode I only recall seeing a two digit letter/number for each song or program. 

[AnotherScott]

22 minutes ago, Moonglow said:

Drawing upon memory (always a risky thing), in Chain mode I only recall seeing a two digit letter/number for each song or program. 

 

The ability to see the full names while in Chain mode was added in a system update on the Fantom (and was already baked in by the time they came out with the Fantom-0).

[Moonglow]

17 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

The ability to see the full names while in Chain mode was added in a system update on the Fantom (and was already baked in by the time they came out with the Fantom-0).

Good to know, Scott! Is this true for the Fantom 6/7/8 as well? Admittedly, my experience was based on the original Fantom, before the 06/07/08 line was available. Do the original Fantoms and the “0” series have the same operating systems?

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Moonglow said:

Good to know, Scott! Is this true for the Fantom 6/7/8 as well? Admittedly, my experience was based on the original Fantom, before the 06/07/08 line was available. Do the original Fantoms and the “0” series have the same operating systems?

Right, when I said it was added in a Fantom update, I was talking about the 6/7/8. All the Fantom updates that existed in the Fantom when the Fantom-0 came out were already incorporated in the Fantom-0 as shipped. The OS is essentially identical, apart from the obvious differences in the features/specs, like 16-part scenes with seamless transitions on the full Fantom vs. 8-part on the Fantom-0, no V-Piano engine in the 0.

[EscapeRocks]

I don't have a pic of it in Scene

I do have a pic of it in Chain Mode

See the bottom section

 

Just as with Kronos, MODX, etc..  You can name the scenes whatever you want.

 

The nice thing about Chain Mode on the Fantom and Fantom-O is it does not matter at all what order your scenes are.    You create the order in Chain Mode.

You can also save different chains.  I have a few saved based on the gig and venue, where the songs are in different order

 

As far as the VTW organ:  Yes, i need to be in slot or track or whatever it's called, 2.    You can tell the Fantom the MIDI receive channel for it.

I do this when using the Fantom on a gig, and use a 61note controller to control

 

One note about this:

The onscreen drawbars(or using the fantom faders) in drawbar mode only work with channel 2

This has not been an issue for me.

 

Another very cool thing is the Fantom can natively show you what you're doing in Mainstage, and call patches directly.  If you use smart control, it will also display those and let you use the knobs to control those.

 

 

 

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

9 hours ago, CEB said:

...

 

2) Can I setup 88 key based keyboard zones/ splits and layers in the Fantom 0 and simply MIDI in a lighter weight 88 key weighted board into Fantom 0 and play the Fantom setups?  .... Like Elze does with Kronos 61s.  I hoping for a plug and play solution and not having to program the 88.

Regular Fantom 7 owner here. No - you need to program your zones on your controller keyboard. Straight layers across the full key range will work, but you have to have splits assigned on the controller as the Fantom's internal splits aren't able to be played over midi. This is unlike Yamaha and Korg boards.

[Moonglow]

Can an external controller select programs from the Fantom while it is Chain mode? For example, referencing David’s picture showing the songs in Chain mode, could an external controller select “Wheel in the Sky” and then select “When You Love a Woman”?

[stoken6]

5 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Regular Fantom 7 owner here. No - you need to program your zones on your controller keyboard. Straight layers across the full key range will work, but you have to have splits assigned on the controller as the Fantom's internal splits aren't able to be played over midi. This is unlike Yamaha and Korg boards.

Bummer. I had this limitation back in my Ensoniq and Alesis days. In practice, not too big a deal - most of the time, I wanted some kind of AP or EP on my controller board, across its entire compass. Splits and the like were on the upper (sound-producing) board.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[EscapeRocks]

4 hours ago, Moonglow said:

Can an external controller select programs from the Fantom while it is Chain mode? For example, referencing David’s picture showing the songs in Chain mode, could an external controller select “Wheel in the Sky” and then select “When You Love a Woman”?

Yes. If you look at the picture, in that rig it’s my MODX6+ over the Fantom-08

 

I’m using the touch screen of the MODX

to select my songs.  It then send PC to the Fantom regardless of Chain Mode or Scene Mode. 

[TJ Cornish]

1 hour ago, EscapeRocks said:

Yes. If you look at the picture, in that rig it’s my MODX6+ over the Fantom-08

 

I’m using the touch screen of the MODX

to select my songs.  It then send PC to the Fantom regardless of Chain Mode or Scene Mode. 

Yes, but…

 

Scene Chain is just a viewing mechanism for Scenes. If the question is “do regular scene program changes (MIDI MSB/LSB/Program) work when the Fantom is in Scene Chain mode? Yes; this is what you’re describing, EscapeRocks. I don’t believe you can step through a Scene Chain in order by just sending Program Change messages.

 

I have two main beefs with the Fantom (I have the 7 rather than the 07, so YMMV). The first is poorly-implemented timing - among other things, the LFOs don’t sync to MIDIClock. The second is the lack of a librarian or some way to manage scenes. They multiply like mushrooms and are a pain to find after your first 75 or so. There have been a couple people who have hinted that a 3rd party librarian is in development, but I haven’t seen it yet.

[Cabo]

21 hours ago, CEB said:

 

MIDI in a lighter weight 88 key weighted board

 

getting close to musical retirement and not really wanting to spend that much money at this point. 

 

I recently switched from a Kronos to Fantom 7 for one band and to Yamaha YC for another (that doesn't need as many synth sounds).  The learning curve was substantially for the Fantom switch and not really worth it in the end.

 

One thing I'd seriously look at is getting a Kronos 61 to use with a lighter weight 88 key weighted board.  You already have all the programming for the Kronos done.  It's not worth the time to have to re-do all that and learn an entirely new system (imo).   (Plus, you'll hate that wall wart on the Fantom 07.)

 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

the lack of a librarian or some way to manage scenes

 

Definitely a major irritation. Here's the workaround on my to-do list. Right now, all my Scenes are in banks C and D. I'm going to do a backup in case I ever want to explore the factory sample scenes (which I've never checked out, and currently fill banks A and B). I'm then going to copy (write) all my Scenes into more logically arranged combinations on pages of banks A and B. I'm also going to leave slot 16 empty on each page, so I always have a spot to temporarily relocate something if I subsequently want to do some re-ordering on that page.

 

3 hours ago, Cabo said:

I recently switched from a Kronos to Fantom 7 for one band...The learning curve was substantially for the Fantom switch and not really worth it in the end.

 

Maybe it depends on the kind of operations you're focussed on. While in general nothing is easier than something you already know, I found Fantom significantly faster/easier for many things, including setting up combis/scenes with multiple splits/layers, and some other useful patch navigation, parameter editing, and synth editing options.

 

3 hours ago, Cabo said:

One thing I'd seriously look at is getting a Kronos 61 to use with a lighter weight 88 key weighted board.  You already have all the programming for the Kronos done.

 

Another reasonable option, but even the Kronos 61 is double the weight of the Fantom-07 (and sacrifices the extra keys, which are presumably of value here since he's looking at the 07 rather than the 06).

 

 

[Stokely]

I just had my friend's Fantom07 over for a few days.  I was contemplating the big brother Fantom and wanted to check out the sounds, knowing they were mostly the same (minus vpiano and the expansions).  I'm not sure if he had the expansions, I saw an awful lot of Jupiter/JX named patches in there, my friend didn't buy them knowingly.

Anyway, I had a favorable impression but I didn't do any real programming either.   The synth sounds were the stars IMO and everything else I would use in my classic rock band sounded fine, including rhodes (which I know is not a Roland strength, but I may not be that picky).   The action would take some getting used to, I mainly use a Modx7 so the Fantom's more springy action was very different.  It took me a while to play well on the Modx7 light action and I figure this would be no different.  It was physically larger than the Modx7 and I prefered the Roland plastic feel and look (not quite as toy-like).   The Fantom has extra audio outputs which might be a great feature if you use any pedals.

I ended going in a quick different direction with an SK pro, so my rig for now will be sk pro over the Modx7.    There was definitely an overall sound difference between the Fantom-07 and Modx7--I heard a bit more clarity and "pristine" sound out of the Yamaha, while the Roland had a bit of a "gauze" on the sound, but it wasn't necessarily a bad thing   It had a vibe is a more positive way to say it.   In the end after comparing some custom Modx synth patches with the Rolands, the difference wasn't so great that I'd switch (bird in the hand, and all that).  If I'd had the Roland, I wouldn't switch it for the Modx either I don't think, especially not with the Hammond taking over organ from my ipad that has been connected to my Modx.

I wish all these manufactures would have at least a (free) librarian, like Novation does (and it's browser based).  Granted, the Summit is a lot simpler as far as patches, but it makes it very painless to build banks of sounds.  

[AnotherScott]

On 11/24/2022 at 11:15 AM, CEB said:

2) Can I setup 88 key based keyboard zones/ splits and layers in the Fantom 0 and simply MIDI in a lighter weight 88 key weighted board into Fantom 0 and play the Fantom setups?  .... Like Elze does with Kronos 61s.  I hoping for a plug and play solution and not having to program the 88.

 

Most of this has been addressed, but another difference between the Kronos and Fantoms here is that, on Kronos, you can "MIDI in a lighter weight 88 key weighted board" via either the 5-Pin MIDI jack or USB. With Fantom, of course the 5-pin is fine, but USB is only officially supported with specific Rolands as controllers, and I have seen posts where people have had issues with other USB controllers. This can especially be relevant here since so many current lightweight 88s are USB only.

 

See: https://rolandus.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039197531-FANTOM-6-FANTOM-7-FANTOM-8-Connect-Devices-to-the-USB-EXT-DEVICE-Connector