MIDI Issue With Kurzweil/Yamaha Setup

[Polkahero]

I've got a wedding ceremony gig coming up where I have to bring my keyboard as the venue doesn't have anything.  I just installed a Bosendorfer sample library on my Yamaha MODX7 which I'm trying to control with my Kurzweil KA-90 (I need weighted action and prefer the full 88 key range).  For some reason not every note triggers the sound or certain notes will trigger on and off randomly.  I don't think it's an issue with the Kurzweil because I've always run MIDI Out into my V3 piano module and never had any issues with that setup.  Any ideas?

[Mighty Motif Max]

You have 3 options due to the multi-channel pianos on the MODX keyboards.

 

1. Set the Kurzweil to transmit on all midi channels/whatever channels your piano part uses.

2. Set the MODX to "Single Mode" for midi - this will make all the parts respond to a single midi channel, which can be your Kurzweil's channel.

3. Just use single-part pianos (colored green) on the MODX on whatever midi channel your Kurzweil is transmitting on.

 

You might also be able to control all the keyboard control-enabled parts on your Kurzweil's one midi channel while playing one other part on the MODX keybed by using "Hybrid Mode" for midi instead.

[AnotherScott]

MMM's got it. Your problem is almost certainly occurring because the Kurz is transmitting on a single channel (as it must), and you've picked a Yamaha piano whose different elements are set to respond to different channels... which means some notes at some velocities will sound, and others will not. MMM's options 2 and 3 will solve your problem. (Option 1 not really, since that Kurzweil can only transmit on one channel at a time, so whatever you do has to be configured from the Yamaha side, which is what options 2 and 3 do.)

[EscapeRocks]

Just to chime in, both of the above are good answers.

 

If you really like the Bosendorfer, set the MODX to Single mode

Part of what make the detailed pianos good (Bosendorfer) in the MODX/MODX+ is they use several parts.  Those parts are all designed to trigger at different velocity levels.

That's how you get the nuanced playing.

 

One caveat, in single mode, you may find you want to adjust the velocity range of each part on the MODX so they all responds how you'd like when you trigger from the Kurzweil.

 

I do this in my rig, even though my Fantom -08 can send on all 16 channels, I still went in and fine tuned the velocity range on each part in the MODX+ for the pianos I'd use.

 

If you haven't yet, on the MODX, just hit Edit, then hit the Part button then on the screen tap which part you want to adjust and that screen should show the velocity range. 

 

 

[Polkahero]

You guys rule!  Thanks for the tips, I'll give those options a try.

[Sean M. H.]

If I'm following this thread correctly (I've never played either of the boards in question), you guys are saying that the MODX basically has to treat large multisampled pianos as a "Multi"/"Combi" or whatever the Yamaha equivalent lingo is, instead of a single sound entity (patch, program etc) on one channel? 

 

Probably a dumb question, but why is it implemented that way?  Is it as simple as the MODX architecture does not allow for enough elements (or layers as Kurzweil calls them) in a single zone/patch/channel to hold something like a large piano multsample, pedal noise, etc?  Or is there something else going on?  I think my PC4 allows for 15 layers per patch (I'm assuming that halves for stereo samples though)...is the MODX way less than that?

[Mighty Motif Max]

39 minutes ago, Sean M. H. said:

If I'm following this thread correctly (I've never played either of the boards in question), you guys are saying that the MODX basically has to treat large multisampled pianos as a "Multi"/"Combi" or whatever the Yamaha equivalent lingo is, instead of a single sound entity (patch, program etc) on one channel? 

 

Probably a dumb question, but why is it implemented that way?  Is it as simple as the MODX architecture does not allow for enough elements (or layers as Kurzweil calls them) in a single zone/patch/channel to hold something like a large piano multsample, pedal noise, etc?  Or is there something else going on?  I think my PC4 allows for 15 layers per patch (I'm assuming that halves for stereo samples though)...is the MODX way less than that?

A single Yamaha Voice can have 8 parts/layers. It's just that for the Montage/MODX they decided that wasn't enough so they have multiple voices that make up multi-part pianos in the factory "performances" (aka multis, which is always the mode the keyboard is in). There are still plenty of single-part voices, though they're mostly from the previous generation Motif XF line as the new sounds in the Montage/MODX are heavily dependent on the multi-part architecture.

[CyberGene]

Now try to split such a piano on the MODX. You’ll have to go part by part. Or just one of many WTF things with MODX that made me sell it. They used an old and limited architecture and instead of fixing the architecture they workaround it.
 

Another “funny” quirk with splits is if you enable arpeggio on a split you’ll discover that keys from outside the range are still triggering the arpeggio. For instance, split a piano on the right without anything on the left. Enable arpeggio for the piano and play close to the split point on the left. You’ll hear the piano! 😲Guess what: the part range is NOT what keys are controlling the zone. All keys are always controlling the part! The ranges rather prevent notes outside the range to be heard. And since an arpeggio started on the left will produce notes that reach the right (an arpeggio can span multiple octaves) you’ll still hear it 🤦🏻‍♂️In such a case you have to go in a special arpeggio menu to limit keyboard input… Of course, part by part for a multi-part piano 😉

[Al Coda]

5 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

A single Yamaha Voice can have 8 parts/layers. It's just that for the Montage/MODX they decided that wasn't enough so they have multiple voices that make up multi-part pianos in the factory "performances" (aka multis, which is always the mode the keyboard is in).

 

And there´s no way to set all the "voices" in a "performance" to the global or the same MIDI channel,- or, when it´s not the global channel,- store a given channel w/ each of these "multivoice"-performances individually ?

I don´t own Montage or MODX (+), but if that´s true, that´s the most idiotic MIDI implementation imaginable.

Crying shame,- Yamaha !

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

If I'm following this thread correctly (I've never played either of the boards in question), you guys are saying that the MODX basically has to treat large multisampled pianos as a "Multi"/"Combi" or whatever the Yamaha equivalent lingo is, instead of a single sound entity (patch, program etc) on one channel? 

 

Probably a dumb question, but why is it implemented that way?  Is it as simple as the MODX architecture does not allow for enough elements (or layers as Kurzweil calls them) in a single zone/patch/channel to hold something like a large piano multsample, pedal noise, etc?  Or is there something else going on?  I think my PC4 allows for 15 layers per patch (I'm assuming that halves for stereo samples though)...is the MODX way less than that?

Adding to what others have said...

 

For sampled sounds, MODX/Montage permit up to 8 stereo elements per Part. A Part is typically, as you put it, "a single sound entity (patch, program etc) on one channel." (As an aside, I believe you are correct that this is less than on the Kurzweil, though I believe it is double any Roland.) BUT... MODX/Montage also allow you gang up multiple Parts if you want to create a single sound that has more than 8 stereo elements, and this is the part of their architecture that is unusual. (Technically, one could duplicate this behavior on other platforms, but it is not typical usage, not specifically addressed in their interface, and not a functionality used in their factory-provided sounds.)

 

As long as you stick with "single Part" sounds, Montage/MODX will behave as other instruments do, in always keeping all the "bits" of a single sound on a single MIDI channel. But if you make use of this feature that allows sounds to go beyond 8 stereo elements, then indeed different bits of the sound end up on different MIDI channels.

 

5 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Now try to split such a piano on the MODX. You’ll have to go part by part. Or just one of many WTF things with MODX that made me sell it.

Yes... for splits and layers, you should stick with single Part sounds. These other "Multi-Part Single Instruments" (of which there are not an enormous amount) are best used only by themselves. Manipulating them does get cumbersome when you start combining them with other sounds. Arguably, Yamaha should have made that distinction and not permitted the splitting/layering of these sounds with others (or at least not until a user turned on some kind of advanced mode to permit it), but they might have been criticized for doing that, too. ;-)

 

 

[Polkahero]

I think I might consider replacing my Kurzweil KA-90 and my MODX76 with the new MODX88+ model.  The only reason I've kept the Kurz is because of the built in speakers (the internal piano sucks) which are usually loud enough for most gigs but the sound just doesn't compare to my pair of EV ZXA1s.  Action on the Kurz is also sluggish.  MODX88+ is only 3 pounds heavier and I'm sure has better action.  There's a Guitar Center near a future gig site that has one in stock so I'll check it out before the gig and make a decision from there.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Polkahero said:

I think I might consider replacing my Kurzweil KA-90 and my MODX76 with the new MODX88+ model.  The only reason I've kept the Kurz is because of the built in speakers (the internal piano sucks) which are usually loud enough for most gigs

Yeah... best thing is that it's loud enough for things like cocktail hours and such, which is rare for a sub-30-lb board with speakers... but it is easy to get better piano sounds, if you have an iPhone or iPad... just MIDI to the KA-90, and take the audio out of the iOS device and into the line input of the Kurz. IIRC, the front panel volume control of the KA90 only affects the internal sounds, so all you have to do is turn down that knob, set the volume on your iOS device instead, and you'll have better piano (and other) sounds, at that same usable volume. But no, it still won't sound as good as playing through ZXa1s. ;-)

 

1 hour ago, Polkahero said:

Action on the Kurz is also sluggish.  MODX88+ is only 3 pounds heavier and I'm sure has better action. 

I wouldn't count on the MODX 88 action being better.

 

I've been meaning to start a thread about what I've been doing for cocktail hours etc. Maybe this weekend.

[EscapeRocks]

I have never seen so many people chastise a company about a board they either don't own,  or never really took the time to learn it.

Also, the MODX/MODX+ is not, and has not been, designed as a true workstation in the classical sense of the word.  There was always going to be a learning curve.

 

Man, all Max, Scott, and I did was try to help one person with  a specific question (which we did).

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

. Or just one of many WTF things with MODX that made me sell it. They used an old and limited architecture and instead of fixing the architecture they workaround it.

There was/is nothing to fix.   The 'architecture' is just fine for what the MODX/MODX+ (Montage) is designed to be.
 

 🤦🏻‍♂️In such a case you have to go in a special arpeggio menu to limit keyboard input… Of course, part by part for a multi-part piano 😉

 

I know. I hate having to learn and dig deep to program a board that has the capability to go very deep.

 

 

[CyberGene]

@EscapeRocks I only criticized a music instrument, not sure why you almost took it personally. The MODX is a good keyboard but  some concepts are outdated and non-intuitive and that’s apparent from the original issue described here. AWM2 is more than 30-years old and I think it would benefit from an update if not a complete overhaul. If you have to use 4 parts to fit a piano and you can’t treat these 4 parts as a single instrument, then something is not quite right. Ditto if you can either have each part on a separate MIDI channel or all parts listening on one channel and nothing in between.

 

I didn’t say the instrument sounded bad. It’s just too awkward sometimes. And I don’t buy your argument about having to dig deep into the reference manual in order to understand why creating the simplest possible scenario, a split with an arpeggiated sound, doesn’t work as described in the main user manual. This is a music instrument, not a differential equations solver. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

If you have to use 4 parts to fit a piano and you can’t treat these 4 parts as a single instrument, then something is not quite right.

I think an important qualifier here is that they do not HAVE to use 4 parts to fit a piano in a MODX. There are plenty of 1-part piano programs. It is an option provided if you want to have a sampled piano sound with more than 8 elements. 

 

By contrast, for example, the Roland Fantom-0 doesn't even give you a piano with so many as 8 elements. Their sampled pianos max out at 4 (they call them partials), and they do not provide "multi-part" pianos to break the 4-element barrier. They do provide SuperNATURAL pianos which add modeling to the sampled sounds, which, in part, is a way to get some of the behavior Yamaha uses more elements for out of less sample data (e.g. to eliminate perceptible velocity timbre shifts). But IMO, the SuperNATURAL pianos just don't sound as good.

 

I believe Korg's Krome EX maxes out at the equivalent of a single-part MODX piano... 8 stereo multisamples max per key.

 

Yamaha could have stuck with their previous 8-element per sound limitation, and still been as good or better than Korg or Roland in this capability in boards up to its price, but they added an option to gang parts to get past even that limit. No one forces you to use that feature if you don't want to, though. The single part 8-element pianos still (IMO) sound better than the pianos in the Fantom-0 or Krome EX.

 

If you move up in price to the Nautilus/Kronos, the SGX2 pianos support 12 velocity layers, plus samples for other key attributes. More than a single-Part MODX piano, but less than at least what could theoretically be achieved in a MODX multi-part piano. But more to the point, SGX2 is only for pianos, and factory-supplied ones at that. In the Montage/MODX architecture, any sound is eligible for the multi-part treatment, you can even create your own, since it is fully open to user manipulation. SGX-2 is not open to user programming. Other sounds are, in one of the other engines, but those sampled sounds are limited to 8 stereo component parts, same as a single-part MODX sound.

 

I guess my point is, people are criticizing Yamaha for doing something in a less than optimal way, but most other boards can't do that thing at all. If you don't like Yamaha's multi-part implementation, you don't need to use it... and you'll still end up with (IMO) better acoustic instrument emulations (overall) than Korg and Roland.

 

From what I know of the Kurzweil architecture, I believe they support 32 components (layers) in a sound, with two needed for stereo, so 16 max for a piano. That would be as much as a 2-Part MODX instrument... but MODX can go beyond 2 parts, if you want to go beyond 16 elements.

 

 

 

 

[CyberGene]

@AnotherScott those are good points, thanks. MODX was my first (and probably last) workstation, so I didn’t know how the situation was with the other brands at the time. Judging from your good comparison, the MODX might actually be one of the better ones. I criticized it solely on the grounds it turned out to be too awkward for me to use but I realize now it’s not fair to criticize MODX under the spotlight when in fact I should rather be criticizing the entire workstation concept. 

[AnotherScott]

Yes... the MODX (though not truly a workstation in the common use of the word, due to its sequencer limitations) is an example of a board that sacrifices simplicity for flexibility/depth, like the Roland Fantom-0 (or Krome EX , Nautilus, or Kurzweil PC4, though those are workstations). There are also boards with the opposite philosophy, sacrificing flexibility/depth in favor of making the most common things simpler. Nord built their brand on that approach, but Yamaha now offers that in the YC and CP boards. Maybe it was Nord's success that showed Yamaha that the MODX way of doing things isn't for everyone. But all these companies are striving to find the right balance in a given board. Those more flexible boards, themselves, vary in their ease of use, and the MODX is, overall, easier to use than its MOXF predecessor. OTOH, Nord keeps adding capabilities to its Electro, and you'll find people wishing that the Electro 6 were as easy to use as the Electro 2 was. ;-)