Most creative modern-music tool for a traditional keyboardist?

[CyberGene]

OK, this is another of those threads where I have difficulties putting a proper title...

 

So, I'm mainly a classical and jazz pianist. I've always worked in a traditional DAW (currently Logic Pro X) where I lay some MIDI and audio tracks, apply effects, mix and master, you know the drill. Now, I'm interested in creating more modern and experimental music, such as some mix of EDM, trip-hop, electronica, house, alternative, experimental, generative, etc. I'm somehow lost at how I can create such music with my current background. Apparently that music isn't notated and not played or entered note by note through tracks 😀 Or at least I'm not very successful in thinking this way. Ask me about chords and progressions, scales and modes, that's me. Recently I also discovered virtual analog and analog synths, so I'm already pretty advanced in programming synths. But I don't have a clue about how they create modern music. I don't even know how to properly create a drum rhythm, let alone one with sampled sounds. Anyway, I love modern types of music, even those that are predominantly rhythm and pattern based, and I'd be happy to learn how it is created.

 

So, I've been watching some YouTube videos of stuff like grooveboxes, drum machines and the likes and I'm wondering if they would somehow give me the creative boost due to the entirely different workflow and concepts? Or am I a lost case? 😀 Has any of you stepped into these new territories of modern music from the traditional background. Have you found that you like stuff like Elektron Digitakt, MPC One, Deluge, Ableton Live, Novation Tracks, Polyend Tracker, etc? Any recommendations about such gear that can change my mindset and get me some fun? Or should I stick to what I'm good at? 😕

[Adam Burgess]

I sometimes do backing tracks and stuff for 'modern' stuff - I think I'm the same as you. I tend to visualise stuff 'to be played by a real musician' and think how it would look written down.

I've tried watching a load of song teardowns and tutorials, and these guys make such a meal out of recording a 4 bar kick snare hat pattern. It always ends up quantised - with a groove template loaded or just totally straight anyway. I can do the same thing either typing in Sibelius (like a very posh step sequencer), drawing notes in Logic, or just playing it live on keys or pads. An actual step sequencer, I think I just missed that at my time of life, but yeah, divide the bar into (I'm English) semiquavers and drag stuff about. Or just drag a groove in and manipulate… Dunno!

I don't get it - I admit I get bored. 

When I've gone to DJs houses to give them some 'nice' chords/bass lines and stuff, they just gimme a reference and record me for an hour with a guide drum track and they will sit thru and choose some good bits long after I've gone. 

[marino]

I'm in the same ballpark, more or less. I always input notes by playing them; I could apply partial quantization later. I rarely use loops.

I learned not to worry too much about 'humanization' of parts, because sadly, the kids' ears are calibrated on that robotic feeling. When I discuss with students, I always try to bring some point about human metabolism not being quartz-clocked and so on, but if it's work, I just leave it how they like it.

What I can bring to the table is usually some more advanced harmony, to escape Eolian mode lobotomy, and some variety of arrangement, to escape 146th repetion torture. On sound design, too, I'm often able to bring a trick or two to convince them that "another sound is possible".

 

Usually, young people who grew up with electronic music are used to work differently from those raised as musicians; they take existing material (sounds, loops, etc.) and manipulate it. They give more importance to post-treatment of sound, mixes and masters, rather than thinking everything from scratch. You know, effects, compression, heavy eq, pitching, and processing in every possible way. I have tried to partially adapt to this philosophy, and I must say that it opens quite a few doors for sound design. We usually don't think like that, because that's rarely applicable to live playing.

 

Another, unrelated point: As much as I despise the general feel of trap music, some of their rhythms are definitely interesting. Non-repetitive, creating a nice 'elastic' groove with different figures, without the need of a four-on-the-floor Prussian March kick.

 

Just some random thoughts.

 

[GovernorSilver]

What Digitakt, Polyend Tracker, and drum machines all have in common is a sequencer.

 

The first step to learning how to program a drum part in the sequencer, is learning how one measure of music is represented in the sequencer, particularly how the quarter notes are represented if you are working in 4/4 time.

 

Even if you prefer to play the drum part in real time, it is useful to know how the drum part is represented in the sequencer after you have recorded it.

 

Unfortunately, Polyend Tracker represents a measure in a particular way, while, say, Roland drum machines represent the measure in a completely different way.  

 

I would suggest trying a free or low-cost app - on IOS, Android, or computer of choice - before investing in hardware.

[ProfD]

When musicians face this conundrum, this is where I recommend an Akai MPC or similar sampler/groovebox device.

 

In the same way that synthesizers open up sound design options, a sampler/groovebox is similar when when it comes to music composition and thinking outside the box.

 

I'm not a huge fan of all types of modern electronic-based music but whether it's Downtempo or Trap Music or whatever, I do hear elements within some of it that are cool enough to use with my musicality.

 

Even when I'm using electronic devices to make music, I still approach it from the perspective of musicians eventually playing it.😎

[CyberGene]

3 minutes ago, ProfD said:

When musicians face this conundrum, this is where I recommend an Akai MPC or similar sampler/groovebox device

My impression from watching all these YT videos is the MPC One is probably my best bet since it’s closer to a traditional DAW workflow. I’m eying the Live 2 in particular since it has acceptable speakers and is battery powered but what bothers me about MPC products is some people say they are buggy and unfinished and feel like beta products… 😕

[GovernorSilver]

Watching ProfD record drum parts, bass line, etc. into an MPC Keys 61 allayed my own concerns about the current-gen MPC platform - not just the reported bugs but also the workflow.   By all mean watch the Benn Jordan video, but keep in mind the context Benn is working with - he was hoping one MPC Keys 61 would replace his whole live rig - which is a different scenario than just using the Keys as a secondary keyboard in your rig.  Benn wanted to use it to play multi-sampled acoustic and electric pianos, and also sound design all at the same time.

 

I may pick up an MPC Studio, as it would give me the MPC pads, which are much nicer for finger drumming than anything I have at the moment, and the MPC software for it's well-known set of sample editing/handling tools.   It's less of a commitment to the MPC platform for me than buying a One or Live 2.  

 

I have Ableton Live 11 with Push 2, but I don't really like the Push's pads for finger drumming, which put a damper on the idea of using Live 11 + Push2 as a primary drum machine.

[ProfD]

32 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I’m eying the Live 2 in particular since it has acceptable speakers and is battery powered...

The Akai MPC Live II is a great choice.😎

[AROIOS]

18 hours ago, CyberGene said:

OK, this is another of those threads where I have difficulties putting a proper title...

 

So, I'm mainly a classical and jazz pianist. I've always worked in a traditional DAW (currently Logic Pro X) where I lay some MIDI and audio tracks, apply effects, mix and master, you know the drill. Now, I'm interested in creating more modern and experimental music, such as some mix of EDM, trip-hop, electronica, house, alternative, experimental, generative, etc. I'm somehow lost at how I can create such music with my current background...Anyway, I love modern types of music, even those that are predominantly rhythm and pattern based, and I'd be happy to learn how it is created...

A huge part of modern (90's~now) pattern-based music is about sound design and mixing techniques. Apply the "wrong" samples or mixing techniques, and the whole thing easily falls apart or sounds "off". Sound design and mixing are too big of a topic for one post, but luckily, there are a plethora of tutorials online nowadays.
 

A groovebox is a great tool to get familiar with pattern-based styles, since it allows us to quickly switch on/off parts to hear both how they sound in isolation and in the mix. I've experiences countless cases where a sample that would have sounded "meh" to my Pop/Jazz conditioned ears, just sound perfect in a particular style I'm not used to.
 

Loop Sample CDs/Packs with individual instrument tracks are helpful in a similar way. I've loved e-Lab's (also under other names like "Equipped Music", "Raw Cutz" etc) products in that regard for over 20 years. In the attachment is a demo from their "Smoker's Delight" library below for your reference.
 

"am I a lost case?"
NOPE, not at all. Your Jazz trained ears and chops will come in very handy by injecting Soul into these often mechanical sounding styles. There's a reason J Dilla collected 60's~70's Soul/Jazz records like crazy. His beats would have never sounded so dope without the Jazzy/Soulful roots in the samples he pulled from those records.

[Jose EB5AGV]

Another instrument to consider for that kind of music is Native Instruments Maschine. I have one but, sincerely, have not yet devoted enough time to it. But so far, looks promising 😃

[KuruPrionz]

I wanted to expand my horizons as well. 

I went to www.metapop.com (I have no affiliations) which is hosted by Native Instruments.

 

They have Re-Mix and Production competitions with great prizes. I've entered about 20 competitions and have not won any of the prizes.

That said, I did win. You'd be downloading tracks, stems, etc. with a sample piece to hear one way the mix turned out. 

 

It's very freeing, it's NOT your music so you can do anything. I learned or got better at parallel processing, different ways of pitch shifting (see my Experiments thread in the Recording forum for one technique), reversing audio or MIDI, chopping things up and re-arranging them, removing stuff I didn't like, creating new beats, building new sounds from existing ones and more. 

 

Here's a link to my Experiments thread, all are welcome to share ideas. 

 

[CyberGene]

I discovered this video and it seems pretty inspiring to me but I can’t really figure out if that I-Arpeggio is a silly gimmick or is varied and rich enough to not sound like those cheap keyboards with onboard styles. On the Roland website they say you can export the parts (arpeggios? Rhythm?) in a DAW, so I can imagine this serving as an inspiration for ideas that are developed further in a DAW. Any experience with the Xm? (Besides, my 5 year old daughter is still sad about me selling the MODX, she loved playing around with the sequenced patches. And this one even has speakers, is battery powered and lightweight) 🤔

 

[ProfD]

That Jupiter Xm will not provide the creative inspiration that initially motivated this thread topic. 

 

Your Hydrasynth can do arpeggios and produce sounds that move rhythmically.  Get a real groovebox. 😎

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/korg-wavedrum-global-edition

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtex999ZKZY

 

 

[CyberGene]

The more I research about this, the more I'm convinced I already have all I need to make any music in the world I decide to 🤦🏻‍♂️I have a Mac with Logic Pro X and enough virtual synths + Hydrasynth, CP88, various MIDI controllers and hybrid digital pianos. No external hardware seems to add anything to that. It's about motivation, seems modern types of music are just about different mindset and not the different tools. Some say you need pads or an external groovebox to tap rhythms, yet Dr. Mix does it on the crappy MODX6 keyboard 🤣 Yeah...

[Jose EB5AGV]

12 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

The more I research about this, the more I'm convinced I already have all I need to make any music in the world I decide to 🤦🏻‍♂️I have a Mac with Logic Pro X and enough virtual synths + Hydrasynth, CP88, various MIDI controllers and hybrid digital pianos. No external hardware seems to add anything to that. It's about motivation, seems modern types of music are just about different mindset and not the different tools. Some say you need pads or an external groovebox to tap rhythms, yet Dr. Mix does it on the crappy MODX6 keyboard 🤣 Yeah...

 

Well, my take on this is that you can make any music with an small quantity of gear. But it helps to have more tools IF you know what they were intended for (*) and devote enough time to get the most of each tool.

 

If you do like myself, buy tons of gear and software and leave it mostly unused, for sure it does not help to make any music 🤨

 

OK, so that is my public confession, now I need to redeem myself and put some gear to good use! 😇

 

Jose

 

(*) I got a Maschine MK3 without really understanding what it was, just because it was sold on a lot along a Komplete Kontrol S61 MkII keyboard I wanted. That is an example of what I mean

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

The more I research about this, the more I'm convinced I already have all I need to make any music in the world I decide to 🤦🏻‍♂️I have a Mac with Logic Pro X and enough virtual synths + Hydrasynth, CP88, various MIDI controllers and hybrid digital pianos. No external hardware seems to add anything to that. It's about motivation, seems modern types of music are just about different mindset and not the different tools. Some say you need pads or an external groovebox to tap rhythms, yet Dr. Mix does it on the crappy MODX6 keyboard 🤣 Yeah...

Bobby McFerrin made an album using only his voice - "Don't Worry, Be Happy" was the hit off that album.

So, yes you are correct that you don't need anything, assuming you have a microphone?

Above I mentioned the Korg Wavedrum Global since your title is "Most creative modern-music tool for a traditional keyboardist?".

 

I have one, it is a fun and challenging instrument to play. More than any other aspect, modern popular music is driven by the groove. That is drums and bass. Nothing wrong with electronic drums, however you get them going. I'm not there yet with my Wavedrum but the level of expression offered in a single percussion instrument is well beyond any electronic drums whether on the computer or embedded in an electronic instrument. I have good MIDI tools, lots of great plugins, etc. None of them can match the level of creative potential that the Wavedrum offers and since your title starts with "Most creative", I had to toss it in the mix. 

My second choice would be a fretless electric bass guitar, that's another expression monster!

 

If you can locate either one and goof around with it a bit, you'll see what I mean. Cheers, Kuru

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

The more I research about this, the more I'm convinced I already have all I need to make any music in the world I decide to 🤦🏻‍♂️I have a Mac with Logic Pro X and enough virtual synths + Hydrasynth, CP88, various MIDI controllers and hybrid digital pianos. No external hardware seems to add anything to that. It's about motivation, seems modern types of music are just about different mindset and not the different tools. 

Sure.  It is a combination of both mindset and having the *right* tool(s) to spark inspiration and creativity. 

 

I don't think this thread gets started if the current gear was *enough*.   Something is missing. 

 

But, feel *free* to put more miles on the existing gear since you already own it. 😁😎

[GovernorSilver]

If I had Logic Pro X, I would try the virtual drummers.   Sure, it's more fun to play with a skilled human drummer, but the virtual drummers might come up with something you didn't expect, but might fit the song you're working on.    I've played with the Garageband virtual drummers.  They have some limitations, like requiring extra work to do a shuffle beat.   Garageband in general though is a stripped down form of Logic Pro.

 

Physical pads are less relevant for a  programmatic approach to drum pattern creation, such as what you would see in a step sequencer interface, like what you would encounter on classic Roland drum machines.  From what I understand, Logic Pro has Drum Machine Designer, so don't need external hardware to explore this approach - if you want.

[CyberGene]

I just found out this, it’s from today:

 

 

To me it’s almost an eye-opener what these guys did. Seemingly just a single kick drum on every beat to which almost everything else is side-chained, while the rest is just nice and simple Prophet pad and bass and a few interlocking arpeggios but the result is very smooth and energizing sound, exactly what I seek. 

[pjd]

MPC Beats is a free way to get your feet wet with the Akai MPC approach. I started horsing around with MPC Beats and the creative approach is different than a standard DAW (e.g., Cubase). It relies more on pads and knobs than keys. Using pads for chords, etc. has turned me around 90 degrees.

 

MPC Beats has device presets for a bunch of controllers, or you can use MIDI learn. I bought a used MPK Mini Mk2 on ebay and it's sufficient for learning/experiments despite its crap mini-keys. If you have a controller with pads, then you're good to go.

 

I was going to strip the MPK Mini for parts, but now I'm not so sure! 😀 I've been tearing MPK Mini Play apart for mods (links below).

 

Hope this suggestion is helpful. A way to test out MPC for not much money, if any -- pj

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/review-akai-mini-play-mk1/

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/akai-mpk-mini-play-gm-gs-midi-mod/