Question re: 12-String Electrics

[Caevan O’Shite]

A question for those of you who have or have had 12-String electric guitars with twelve adjustable saddles:

On those courses that have two of the same gauge strings, tuned to the same pitch (NOT an octave)-

-did one of those two saddles ever need to be adjusted even slightly differently from the other for both strings to intonate properly?

I was just wondering if those unison-doubled courses- the non-octave pairs- could be fine if sharing a single saddle.

If so, maybe a ten-saddle arrangement would do for many electric 12's?

As in | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | , for | EE | AA | DD | GG | BB | EE | , respectively (BB and EE being the plain-treble unison pairs), low-to-high...

Just kickin' the ball around here, thinkin' thoughts thunk...

Waddaya say? How was it with your guitars?
  
 

[p90jr]

I play a lot of electric 12 in a couple of acts, including parts high up on the neck and solos... and so I pay a guy to intonate my Charvel Surfcaster 12 (which he says is a real pain...). I do use a Peterson Strobo tuner using the "sweetened 12 string" tuning setting... I couldn't tell you offhand about the bridge and saddles, I'll look when I get home...

[Ivan May]

George Kooymans of Golden Earring used a Danelectro 12 string on many of the band's hits, including a superb, progressive rock cover of The Byrds' Eight Miles High in 1969.

 

 

I like 12 strings, that way they have a more fattened up sound than 6 strings. 

[KuruPrionz]

I've owned and played a number of electric 12 string guitars. 

Having 12 saddles that can be intonated opens up possibilities. You could put an octave lower string on the 2 high strings, just for one. Identical strings is the default but not written in stone. 

 

I recently bought and sold a Daisy Rock Retro-12 that had 12 adjustable saddles. It was a good 12 string electric but too heavy and the upper horn was too short to balance the headstock, which had 12 full sized Grover tuners on it. I've got an Ovation Deacon 12 string neck and a Preacher body but I'm toying with the idea of making a different body, probably hollowed out to reduce weight and with a long upper horn to counteract headstock dive. 

 

I had a Fender Electric XII and that was a great 12 string. I also had a Harmony electric 12 that was a 335 copy with a bolt on neck and I installed 3 Rickenbacker pickups. Nice, but both are long since gone. 

 

Since I'll take my Rainsong 12 string if I ever need to gig with one (it's nice and light and balances well), I've gravitated towards using a Nashville tuned guitar for recording instead of a 12 string. I've got a short scale (22.5) Johnson "Strat" copy that I've got tuned and intonated to Nashville tuning. That brings the chime but it's easier to play and I can (and do) often capo it up for even more chime. 

[KTSs]

Adjusting the saddles on a 12-string electric guitar with courses that have two strings of the same gauge and pitch can be a bit more challenging compared to a regular six-string guitar. In theory, if the strings within a course are truly identical in terms of gauge, material, and tension, you could potentially use a single saddle for both strings.

However, in practice, it's common to find slight differences in the strings, even within the same gauge and brand. Factors like manufacturing variations, wear, and individual string characteristics can cause subtle differences in intonation requirements. Due to these differences, it's often necessary to make slight adjustments to the saddle positions to achieve proper intonation for each individual string within a course.

While a ten-saddle arrangement, as you suggested, could work for some electric 12-string guitars, it may not provide the necessary flexibility to account for the potential variations between strings. Having individual adjustable saddles for each string gives you more control over intonation, allowing you to fine-tune each string to achieve optimal playability.

It's worth noting that there are 12-string electric guitars available with both types of setups—individual saddles for each string and shared saddles for courses. The choice of design often depends on the specific guitar model, manufacturer, and player preference.

If you're considering modifying a 12-string electric guitar or exploring different saddle arrangements, it's advisable to consult a professional guitar technician or luthier who can assess the specific instrument and provide expert guidance tailored to its construction and setup.

[RABid]

Would you want them to be exactly the same? I think that I would prefer just a touch of variance between the two strings to give a fuller sound.

[Scott Fraser]

2 hours ago, RABid said:

Would you want them to be exactly the same? I think that I would prefer just a touch of variance between the two strings to give a fuller sound.

Exactly what I was thinking. I'd want a wee bit of chorusing. Besides, how far apart would any two identical strings be? 

[whitefang]

You could play an electric 12 string strung with only six strings.  Like this guy.  😄

 

 

Whitefang

[picker]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:08 PM, p90jr said:

. I do use a Peterson Strobo tuner using the "sweetened 12 string" tuning setting...

Would you explain the "sweetened 12 string" method? I don't think I've heard of that before.

[CEB]

Sweetened tunings is a Peterson term.    Usually strings instruments tuned in perfect machine pitch play out of tune.  Pianos and Pedal Steels are totally unplayable in perfect machine pitch.
 

 A 6 string guitar in perfect machine pitch you can kind of get away with.  But you may notice things like the G chord sounds great but a E chord may sound a little off.  Regardless of intonation.   Peterson tuners have Sweetened settings where the tuning offset adjustments are programmed to get most instruments where you want them to be.  
 

Steel players used to have to use the old style chromatic Tuners with the needles and cents gauge and we used the Jeff Newman adjustment chart to get the steel in tune. Peterson sweetened tunings for E9 and C6 were a Godsend and got me into using Peterson tuners exclusively. 

[picker]

Thanks, CEB!

[Caevan O’Shite]

1 hour ago, picker said:

Would you explain the "sweetened 12 string" method? I don't think I've heard of that before.

For both 6-String and 12-String electrics, I use the EQU (Equal Temperament, or "Machine" as CEB puts it) Mode of my Peterson StroboStomp HD tuner pedal to initially tune and then adjust the intonation when setting-up the guitar. But once that's all done, from then on I switch over to using its "sweetened"/offset GTR and 12S Presets, respectively. It's AMAZING how much these two steps improve the sound of a guitar!

There is a LO0ONG list of tuning pre-sets that the StroboStomp HD includes! I believe that you can even load custom presets.

And for about $25, you can get the download app version and an adapter-cable for your phone that has nearly all of the same features and performance... ! There are also clip-on versions, as well. But I love the LARGE, BRIGHT, VIVID display of the HD tuner-pedal,

[Mark Schmieder]

Hmm, I thought I got mine for free? Maybe that was a loyalty gift due to buying every rev of upgrades since the first digital strobe from Peterson?

 

I'll have to give your temperament advice a try, in different contexts, for studio overdubs that are long overdue on placeholder ghost tracks.

 

If playing with a pianist, I'm guessing a different choice might be needed, whether for 6-string or 12-string?

 

Incidentally, it appears that 12-string electrics are almost extinct now -- about all that shows up is Gretsch's cheap Electromatic model.

[KuruPrionz]

On 7/5/2023 at 7:20 AM, RABid said:

Would you want them to be exactly the same? I think that I would prefer just a touch of variance between the two strings to give a fuller sound.

You can also just tune them slightly different for that same sound. The fact that you always strike one string before the other (even if only a split second before) will also cause the strings to go just slightly sharp on the attack at different times so even a perfectly tuned and intonated 12 string will still have enough variance to sound fuller. 

 

The 1st and 2nd courses will respond less to the above than the other 4 courses since those have very different strings (and tensions) and the attack going a bit sharp varies more within the pair.