Help me streamline my rig...

[Jim Alfredson]

Friends,

As some of you may know, one of the acts I play with is Echoes of Pink Floyd, a Michigan-based Pink Floyd tribute band. Our fellow forumite Red Key has subbed for me a couple of times in this band. It's a great group of people. The former keyboardist that I replaced is the current guy with Brit Floyd, Matt Riddle. 

 

As of last year I also took over lead vocal duties with the band. Due to that, I've been looking for ways to streamline my rig as much as possible. I've already cut down from four keyboards to only two and from carrying my own powered monitoring system consisting of two Yamaha DXR10s, the matching DXS10 subwoofer, and the Leslie 3300, to all in-ear. But I think there is still room for improvement.

 

Currently, I am using the Kurzweil Forte7 as the main brains of the rig. I plan to replace that with the new K2700 in the future, as soon as I have time to import my PROGRAMS and MULTIS and set everything up. In the meantime, the Forte7 has been my rock since I joined the band in 2018. It handles all the non-organ sounds, samples, sound FX, and sends program changes to the Hammond SK Pro and the Lexicon MX300 that is processing my vocals. I've done extensive programming on the Forte, including making most of the sounds I use from scratch, curating samples and triggering them from the keys, multiple splits across the keyboard, controllers assigned to this and that... it's pretty complicated but makes sense to me.

So the keyboard rig is the Forte7 and the Hammond SK Pro going into a Radial Key Largo. The FOH gets the XLR balanced outs, I get the TRS balanced monitor outs, which I then plug into a small Yamaha mixer that drives my in-ears. No need for wireless in-ears for me, since I'm stuck behind my rig. Here's a picture.

 

We don't always have the same sound company doing FOH for us, so I thought it prudent to process my own vocals and send the FOH a stereo XLR feed. I use my own SM58 into a Golden Age microphone preamp (the red box in the rack) which feeds the Lexicon MX300. The XLR of the Lexicon go to the FOH, the 1/4" outputs from the Lexicon go into my Yamaha mixer. 

 

My issue is this: Sometimes I get nasty noise from the Key Largo, mostly the Hammond channel. The Hammond outputs are unbalanced. What's very strange is that sometimes, if I put the volume for that channel on the Key Largo into a certain 'sweet spot', the noise goes away. 

 

I also get a nasty hum sometimes from the 1/4" Lexicon outputs. Thankfully everything going to the FOH is always clean. But the hum is very annoying in my in-ears, no matter where it's coming from.

 

So I've thought about using isolated splitters so I can use the XLR outputs on the Lexicon as well. And maybe even for the Radial (even though the monitor and main outs on that are supposed to be transformer isolated).

But after today's gig, I was thinking... why am I carrying around essentially two mixers? The Key Largo and the Yamaha could be replaced by one unit, if it had robust balanced aux outputs so that the FOH could get a stereo key send and a stereo vox send (with my effects already added). So I started looking at the Soundcraft Ui16. It has 8 inputs (four combo XLR/TRS jacks, four XLR), four aux outputs on XLR, and two main outputs on XLR plus a really good headphone amp with tons of signal output.

 

This would also get rid of the Golden Age preamp, as the Soundcraft has great sounding preamps in it. It also has really great FX. Unfortunately they are not controllable via MIDI, but I could use the onboard reverb of the Soundcraft, which would free up a path in the Lexicon to use for something else (it has two parallel FX processors in it, each one capable of doing pretty much whatever you want, but the first one is always doing reverb right now).

 

Thoughts? Is there something even better out there? My main concern is whether or not the aux sends from the Ui16 will be robust enough to drive the FOH without getting noise from ground loops and such. Should I use isolation transformers on those? 

 

[kaptainkeys]

I've heard rumors that the Behringer X Air mixers have profiles that can be switched by midi, but I am not sure.  It would also give you more AUX sends than the Soundcraft, not sure if you care about that though.

[stoken6]

I am 100% with you on your thinking and plan. My first thought (budget notwithstanding) was a SSL SiX, but no FX there. 
 

What vocals are you taking Jim-Gilmour or Waters (or both)? There’s a lot of responsibility on your shoulders…

Cheers, Mike

 

[ABECK]

Totally ancillary, but as a hardware guy, I'm stoked to see you pulling this gig off without using a laptop!  

In addition, as a K2700 owner, I'm def interested in your experience importing the forte programs.   I had some funkiness trying to do that (I haven't really spent the time trying to troubleshoot it yet.)

[U.Honey]

I used to have silmilar setup with Keylargo & Yamaha MG6. I don’t sing though, the reason for the Yamaha mixer was to mix the FOH monitor feed with my keyboards. However, something about routing the keys through the Yamaha degregated the sound compared to just using the Keylargo, and I ended up ditching the Yamaha and running Two XLR  cables to my monitors, one for the keys and one for the FOH feed. That way the “mixing”is done in the monitor.

 

However, your situation is different. You need something to mix the vocals and keys to your in-ears. I have a super-lightweight setup where I use Behringer MA400. If you had only one keyboard that would work and it’s about as lightweight as it can get, but you have 2 keyboards in the setup.

 

Here’s a wild idea: How about you ditch everything except the Hammond and get that Kurzweil K2700. It has audio input with effects and and another stereo input. You could use the other input (with effects) for vocals and the stereo input to mix the other keyboard. I don’t know if that would actually work but just some food for thought.

 

For the hum issue, if the signal going to the FOH is clean and the signal going to Yamaha has hum, could the reason be that while the Keylargo XLR output is transformer isolated, the 1/4 output actually isn’t. Maybe try putting a DI box between the Keylargo and Yamaha next time the problem occurs to see if that would do the trick.

[DovJ]

10 hours ago, GotKeys said:

I've heard rumors that the Behringer X Air mixers have profiles that can be switched by midi, but I am not sure.  It would also give you more AUX sends than the Soundcraft, not sure if you care about that though.

Correct. Many parameters in the X Air mixers are MIDI-controllable. From the manual for my XR18:

 

[Al Coda]

That´s a small rig already.

When it´s still too big,- the band should do what most big acts do today:

 

More backing tracks to play along w/ only 1 keyboard,- if at all.

 

Becoming a 100% background actor is not much fun for a real musician.

But when earning an exorbitant fee per gig,- who cares ?

Less to learn in addition ...

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[Stokely]

My impression is also that this is a pretty compact rig, it's similar to mine--2 keyboards, key largo and small in-ears Rolls mixer that accepts the KL monitor (OR, I use a Behringer P16m monitor mixer with Behringer mixers including the band's).   However, I don't have a preamp or vocal processor.  I just send my mic to FOH and don't hear any fx in my monitor (though I guess I could).   We put some basic delay and verb on the vocals for the main mix when we run sound, when we have a sound engineer we leave it to them.   The preamp and Lexicon seem to be the heart of the remaining complication, are those absolutely necessary?

 

[kaptainkeys]

Another benefit of using one of the X Air mixers is that they have lots of great built-in effects, so you could probably ditch the lexicon and just use the scenes function in the beheringer:

[Delaware Dave]

I'm interested to understand what the K2700 offers you that the Forte doesn't. 

[mynameisdanno]

I like your plan.  I used a Midas MR18 on the Heart tour in 2019, and configured four aux sends as two stereo subgroup outs, one for "real" keys sounds (piano, strings, etc.) and one for synths/Mellotron (they ended up getting submixed into one pair due to late-arising input list constraints, but I ended up doing that final submix with a Radial Space Heater which was in my rack anyway doing some other jobs).

 

I was able to control effects return volume on the MR18 with a knob on a MIDI controller, to give my accordion a slathering of reverb for one tune.  Never tried any more sophisticated MIDI control of mix parameters or scene changes beyond that, but I know the XR18/MR18 can do quite a bit with MIDI control.

 

Regardless of how you do this, I would definitely advise isolation transformers as the final step between all your gear and the sound company.  Noise issues aside, lots of gear with line-level XLR outs responds *very* poorly to phantom power being sent into their outputs, even momentarily, and that's very easy to have happen either accidentally, or it might even be unavoidable on boards that have global phantom power.  I've had gear require repair back before I learned this and once I finally figured out the culprit, no matter how pro the sound company or how fixed an installation a rig is in, I always have some transformers between me and the audio dept.

 

Back on the Heart tour I used a Radial Twin-Iso for that, mounted in the back of the rack with a J-Clamp to make it convenient to patch into.  It worked great, except for one day when the monitor tech accidentally hit the polarity switch while hurriedly patching into my rack during changeover.  I could hear the weird out-of-phase sound in my stereo IEMs from the jump, but both the monitor guy and FOH's attention were elsewhere, and I thought maybe the problem was just in my IEM mix - maybe somebody repaired the XLR cable to my IEMs and miswired one side.  Song two was Magic Man.  The big glide down in the synth break was usually a gut-shaking Moog assault, further fortified by a send to a sub-octave generator that our FOH engineer kept on a volume pedal just for that moment - he would just goose it up until the rafters started rattling.  They'd kill the lights and turn on the laser show just then too – it was always a big moment.  That night, as that Minimoog note glided its way down to the low G, as soon as it hit the crossover frequency into the mono subs, the fundamental promptly faded out, leaving nothing but the harmonics.  It was a comically flaccid moment approximating how "Magic Man" must have sounded through a transistor radio (but with lasers).  I noticed the front few rows weren't staggering back from the subwoofers like usual and immediately realized what must have happened.

 

We removed the polarity buttons from the Twin-Iso and never had that problem again.

 

 

[cphollis]

3 hours ago, GotKeys said:

Another benefit of using one of the X Air mixers is that they have lots of great built-in effects, so you could probably ditch the lexicon and just use the scenes function in the beheringer:

+1 here as well.  I've found the built-in effects rack good enough for many but not all things.  I'm using the XR18 to mix three stereo keyboards (no vocals) and the six auxes are quite useful.  I present a total of six signals to FOH on a good night, or I can mix it down to a single mono or stereo pair if that's what is needed.  I'll take whatever monitor feed, and then mix that in and listen on main outs / headphones / etc.   I started doing this after upgrading the band mixer to the X32, and thought -- gee, that'd make a dandy keyboard mixer.  Also the USB interface is fully featured for recording, audio playback, etc.  I have not played with the MIDI commands, but I would assume they work as advertised.

 

The X Airs are also usually plentiful on CL, Reverb, etc. so easy to buy and use.  Tip: use the laptop app to configure it initially, and then small tweaks can be done from either tablet or phone.   The Soundcraft thing looks interesting, though.  

[Jim Alfredson]

On 7/10/2022 at 2:51 AM, stoken6 said:

I am 100% with you on your thinking and plan. My first thought (budget notwithstanding) was a SSL SiX, but no FX there. 
 

What vocals are you taking Jim-Gilmour or Waters (or both)? There’s a lot of responsibility on your shoulders…

Cheers, Mike

 

 

I’m doing most of the lead vocals. The extremely high Waters stuff is out of my range; the bassist covers that. But the lower Waters stuff (like on Comfortably Numb) and of course all the Gilmour stuff… I cover that.

 

On 7/10/2022 at 1:08 PM, Delaware Dave said:

I'm interested to understand what the K2700 offers you that the Forte doesn't. 

More real estate (my Forte is the 76 key version), the assignable trigger pads which I plan to use for samples rather than assigning them to keys as I am doing now (which will give me more real estate again), the ribbon controller for soloing, easier to read buttons and controls on dark stages… but mainly more real estate.  What I’ll be losing with the K2700 vs the Forte is a MIDI THRU that can be assigned as a MIDI OUT (only one MIDI IN and OUT on the K2700), less user sample memory (though I’m nowhere near maxing out the Forte), and less external pedal controller inputs. But I purchased a MIDI Solutions quad MIDI splitter and the rest I can deal with.

 

On 7/10/2022 at 2:27 PM, mynameisdanno said:

 

Regardless of how you do this, I would definitely advise isolation transformers as the final step between all your gear and the sound company.  Noise issues aside, lots of gear with line-level XLR outs responds *very* poorly to phantom power being sent into their outputs, even momentarily, and that's very easy to have happen either accidentally, or it might even be unavoidable on boards that have global phantom power.  I've had gear require repair back before I learned this and once I finally figured out the culprit, no matter how pro the sound company or how fixed an installation a rig is in, I always have some transformers between me and the audio dept.

 

 

A very good point re: phantom power. Thank you.

 

Regarding the Behringer idea, I refuse to use anything from that company. Just my personal stance. 

 

In talking to the band, we’ve been discussing going all in-ear. I own a Soundcraft Impact SI 32 channel mixer that we could use for our monitor board. You can put a BLU card in it, which is DBX’s format for Ethernet headphone boxes. DBX makes personal monitor box called the PMC16. Each member could have one and make their own mix and then either use in-ears with that or a powered monitor. It has headphone outputs, XLR and TRS outputs on the back. That might be the way to go. We’d just need to invest in a splitter snake and the DBX boxes. Then I could actually not only mix my keys and vocals but have a bit of drums, guitars, background vocals, etc. in there and pan them around the stereo field where I want. Right now I just get a single mono feed from the monitor guy that has the rest of the band in it.

I think that might be the solution. I could always just use the Soundcraft myself but it’s rather large and overkill to just feed my own in-ears. But using it for the entire band makes a lot of sense and then we can control our own monitors without having to rely on sound guy du jour.

[TJ Cornish]

Hi Jim - that’s a lot going on.

 

A couple thoughts - my rig centerpiece is a Motu 828X. I run a mix to FOH,  a mix to a wireless in-ear transmitter in my rack, and a click track mix from a couple keyboards that gets sent as an additional output to the sound board. Control of the 828X is via PC. If you’re willing to run a wireless access point, the Motu can be controlled by an iPad. Ins and outs are balanced, and I believe has fairly solid MIDI control. Also has a couple mic pres on it.

 

For general band IEM - I would encourage you to check out the personal monitor style of controlling the mix rather than getting the mix stations - this is true whatever the brand. I’m an Allen & Heath guy with both GLD and DLive systems, but other brands have similar options. Having all of your in-ear transmitters in a rack and just passing out packs saves a ton of setup time and cabling. For cost - everybody already owns a phone. The Allen & Heath system includes an app called Custom Control where you can build the app pages your people get. They download the app from the App Store (Android and Apple apps are available), sign in as a user on the sound board in the app, e.g. “bass”, “guitar 1”, etc., and that logs them into a mix output. Then they get just the controls they need - in my case faders and pan knobs.

 

My world is the church world, but we have gotten 25+ volunteers with every brand of phone comfortable using this. I can’t even imaging what the cabling mess would be like to do this with mixing stations.

 

 

[Al Coda]

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

and less external pedal controller inputs

 

Not really.

Physically yes,- but on the K2700 you can plug double-switch pedals and/or 1 or 2 single switch pedals into each of the switch-pedal inputs and get every combination you need as the result.

2 CC pedals and 2, 3 or 4 switches.

K2700 UG, page 21, chapter 1-12

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[mynameisdanno]

7 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

 

 

 

Regarding the Behringer idea, I refuse to use anything from that company. Just my personal stance. 

 

 

I generally keep to that same rule, and was deeply annoyed to find that the MR18 was by far the best solution for my particular application on that tour. I settled for buying it used.

[Jim Alfredson]

6 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

Hi Jim - that’s a lot going on.

 

A couple thoughts - my rig centerpiece is a Motu 828X. I run a mix to FOH,  a mix to a wireless in-ear transmitter in my rack, and a click track mix from a couple keyboards that gets sent as an additional output to the sound board. Control of the 828X is via PC. If you’re willing to run a wireless access point, the Motu can be controlled by an iPad. Ins and outs are balanced, and I believe has fairly solid MIDI control. Also has a couple mic pres on it..

 

 

 

I’ve thought about doing this with a Steinberg MX816 that I have. It can run in standalone mode and you can set up the internal routing via the computer beforehand. 8 mic / line level inputs, 8 assignable balanced outputs, and two separate headphone outputs would do the job pretty handily.

 

6 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

 

 

For general band IEM - I would encourage you to check out the personal monitor style of controlling the mix rather than getting the mix stations - this is true whatever the brand. I’m an Allen & Heath guy with both GLD and DLive systems, but other brands have similar options. Having all of your in-ear transmitters in a rack and just passing out packs saves a ton of setup time and cabling. For cost - everybody already owns a phone. The Allen & Heath system includes an app called Custom Control where you can build the app pages your people get. They download the app from the App Store (Android and Apple apps are available), sign in as a user on the sound board in the app, e.g. “bass”, “guitar 1”, etc., and that logs them into a mix output. Then they get just the controls they need - in my case faders and pan knobs.

 

 

 

The Soundcraft supports up to 10 separate users via a router and has iOS apps for just this very thing. My concern is that not all band members need wireless in-ears (myself, the drummer, the ancillary guitarist, etc) and said wireless in-ear systems are expensive. You also run the risk of RFI interference, having to make sure you have fresh batteries every show (lots of waste there), and general wireless flakiness. But really the expense is the main turn-off. Good, solid, reliable wireless in-ears are very expensive.

Running the DBX personal monitor stations would just require Ethernet cables between the Soundcraft and all 8 boxes (for the 8 members of the band) and power. That’s not any more cabling than required to run a powered monitor to each person.

[TJ Cornish]

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

 

I’ve thought about doing this with a Steinberg MX816 that I have. It can run in standalone mode and you can set up the internal routing via the computer beforehand. 8 mic / line level inputs, 8 assignable balanced outputs, and two separate headphone outputs would do the job pretty handily.

 

 

The Soundcraft supports up to 10 separate users via a router and has iOS apps for just this very thing. My concern is that not all band members need wireless in-ears (myself, the drummer, the ancillary guitarist, etc) and said wireless in-ear systems are expensive. You also run the risk of RFI interference, having to make sure you have fresh batteries every show (lots of waste there), and general wireless flakiness. But really the expense is the main turn-off. Good, solid, reliable wireless in-ears are very expensive.

Running the DBX personal monitor stations would just require Ethernet cables between the Soundcraft and all 8 boxes (for the 8 members of the band) and power. That’s not any more cabling than required to run a powered monitor to each person.

 

I like the Motu as a keys mixer/interface - I have been in and out with soft-synths, and like that the same box does everything, and it stays how I put it, so it’s actually pretty rare that I open up CueMix, but it’s there if I need it. Full disclosure - the LED display died on my 828X after only a year or so. I don’t really need it as I use the software when anything needs to be tweaked, but that’s annoying. I’ve thought about replacing it with a newer similar model.

 

If you’re able to live with wired monitors, the mixing stations can work OK. For wireless it’s a big pain, as now you have to get the signal out of the mix station back into the transmitter. If you have a mixer in a case where the IEM transmitters can stay wired to the mixer, it is definitely less wire than mixing stations or monitor wedges. 

 

Maybe a hybrid solution makes sense- wireless for the mobile band members? Even as a non-mobile keys guy, I can’t imagine going back to a cable, and my IEM transmitter is usually about 3’ from me. If I was a guitar cat or vocalist, a cord would be a non-starter.

 

RE Batteries - I have not found this to be a big deal. Eneloop rechargeable batteries are great for this - they last forever on a charge, and don’t self-discharge when not in use. I have a big zipper bag labeled “Charged” and a different colored zipper bag labeled “Dead”. I have an 8 slot 1 hour charger I use for these. During setup, grab a handful from the “dead” bag, throw them on the charger, then return to the “Charged” bag. Repeat.

[Jim Alfredson]

Yes maybe a hybrid system is better. However, I think in the heat of a live performance, grabbing a physical knob is easier / quicker than using an iOS device. But of course I could try the iOS solution anytime since the Soundcraft already supports it and just see if I like it. 

[cphollis]

On 7/12/2022 at 5:46 AM, Jim Alfredson said:

In talking to the band, we’ve been discussing going all in-ear. I own a Soundcraft Impact SI 32 channel mixer that we could use for our monitor board. You can put a BLU card in it, which is DBX’s format for Ethernet headphone boxes. DBX makes personal monitor box called the PMC16. Each member could have one and make their own mix and then either use in-ears with that or a powered monitor. It has headphone outputs, XLR and TRS outputs on the back. That might be the way to go. We’d just need to invest in a splitter snake and the DBX boxes. Then I could actually not only mix my keys and vocals but have a bit of drums, guitars, background vocals, etc. in there and pan them around the stereo field where I want. Right now I just get a single mono feed from the monitor guy that has the rest of the band in it.

Going all in-ear is highly encouraged!  I think my current band got 15% better just by being able to hear themselves more clearly . Also there's a thread somewhere on the surprisingly inexpensive yet good "chi fi" 5-driver IEMs.  

 

There are different ways to control what is in one's ears without involving the sound person.  I think I've tried them all.

 

The tablet/phone app approach has its pros and cons -- as do dedicated ethernet headphone boxes.  If I was doing church worship-type sound, definitely the first approach, but with my people who play together routinely, everyone prefers the "B" ethernet headphone box vs tablet/phone which is often being used for lyrics or similar.   BTW, a mix of personal approaches (wedge, IEM, headphone mixer, tablet, etc.) is fine.

 

I now have my 16 mixable in-ear channels in three groups:
(1) processed signal chain from individual performers with compression, EQ, reverb, etc,

(2) the mains from the board,

and (3) an ambient microphone to hear what we sound like out in the audience, as heard by the sound person. 

 

If you put that last one up in your personal mix, your sound person can simply raise their voice a bit to give you feedback.

 

Final note: I do realize that there are people who feel strongly averse to Behringer, but I have to say -- it's done the job for me, and done it well.

 

Best wishes!

[jeffincltnc]

Behringer XAirs are not really available unless you want to pay $1000++ for an XR18 right now.  Behringer production on these is ground to very small volume with the current supply chain issues and limited distribution now with Sweetwater.  If you ask Sweetwater, they will tell you that you might get one in later this fall or not.

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

I know nearly nothing about keyboards and will remain silent on that topic.

You mention hum sometimes coming from unbalanced outputs on your Hammond.

Virtually all of my hum problems in my home studio were eliminated by a single rack space power conditioner. I have a Furman but there are lots of options. 

Depending on the venue, hum can be coming from the house wiring, a power conditioner will take care of that. 

 

I understand getting used to a particular microphone and "if it's not broken don't fix it" but you might enjoy testing some other microphones. Technology has come a long ways since the SM58. For live work a Shure KSM8 is pretty amazing, it is a new, patented design that controls proximity effect beautifully, both close up and back off a bit. The  cardioid pattern is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a mic, which means the tone of your voice won't change much at all if you are singing a bit to one side or the other, that's useful in performance. 

 

As a "practical" (lazy) guitarist, I take one multi-effects guitar amp, one guitar (with locking tuners so string changes are fast) and a small bag with a couple of thiings in it. Stuff is bad, best of luck to you on your quest to downsize!!!!!!