Using the alternate outputs on your keyboard!!!

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

Hi guys.  I wanted to post this specific video so you guys could check it out.  I figured this would help alot of people out considering the concept travels across a wide range of keyboard manufacturers.  This specific video walks through the why, but also HOW to set it up (via Korg's operating system)...  

 

 

 

I will post some other videos from my channel but this is the newest one so I wanted you guys to see it and maybe it will generate some discussion or even introduce it to someone that doesn't know about it at all.  

 

Feel free to check out other content while on the channel.  Sub with the bell too so you can stay connected!  Thanks!

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

Are you guys using the secondary outputs on your keyboard?  If so, in what way has it benefited you?  

 

One of my friends was saying it would be extra work to set up and also having to bring in a mixer too (if you aren't already doing that ...)

 

But to me it seems like a great alternative for "faderless" keyboards...

[Mighty Motif Max]

I have yet to actually use them, despite all my “main” keyboards having two sets of outputs. I guess for me most sound guys at band gigs generally either don’t have many extra channels to spare or wouldn’t do a great job of balancing things without counteracting the sound balance between layers/splits that I am going for anyway. I’m not running external effects pedals either.

However, now and then I consider running electric bass patches on their own output and sending them through a bass amp sim pedal (or actual bass amp). I often end up replacing a bass player as there aren’t that many in my area, so it could add an extra dimension. So far though I haven’t found a strong enough excuse to do it. If I did it would probably be with my PC4, due to the poor bass samples. My Motif XF and Fantom (especially the Motif) have pretty good built in processing that gives me a great bass tone as-is.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Also, here’s the thing...if I’m going to mix it down again to a stereo feed and I’m not using external pedals, I’m going to be controlling all my layer volumes and such with an expression pedal, mod wheel, or (if available) a fader. Most of the capable boards that actually have multiple sets of outputs have those facilities as well. So there’s no advantage to me that’s outlined in the video, given the caveats in my previous post.

[Stokely]

I've used them, but not often.  Currently I had intended to use my Forte's extra output (just needed one of the two) to send a raw organ tone to a pedal.  As it turned out, my Modx and ipad have been at every gig so I haven't been using it, but that would be my main reason to do it--to have a separate signal flow where I wouldn't have to always remember to hit bypass.  The Forte (probably like others) has a per-patch destination (actually per-zone in a multi), so that when I use a particular patch it will switch to using the other outputs and that alternate signal flow.

I had my leslie pedal going into my submixer on a separate channel, so it really isn't any extra work in that regard.  The only extra is running the cable from the outputs into the pedal flow.

I can think of no reason to use extra outputs if you aren't using extra hardware.

[TJ Cornish]

I run click out of a sub out and have done so on every keyboard I’ve used for the last 15 years - OASYS, Kronos, Forte, Fantom.

 

Splitting out your parts to multiple outputs for recording may make sense; for live it means you have to trust your sound person to mix your parts better than you can. That hasn’t been my experience.

[The Real MC]

I use alternate outputs on my Andromeda to route to external effects.  I exploited that in a former band where I had a LOT of parts to cover on the Andromeda.

Alternate outputs are also good with covering LH bass and assigning a dedicated mixer channel.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

2 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Also, here’s the thing...if I’m going to mix it down again to a stereo feed and I’m not using external pedals, I’m going to be controlling all my layer volumes and such with an expression pedal, mod wheel, or (if available) a fader. Most of the capable boards that actually have multiple sets of outputs have those facilities as well. So there’s no advantage to me that’s outlined in the video, given the caveats in my previous post.

Hey Max.  Thanks for your responses.  With that said there are quite a few boards that don't have faders that have additional outputs.  

 

ALL of the Tritons

Krome didn't 

The first of the MO series had faders, then they left it off of the MOX & the MOXF. 

The Fantoms didn't have faders until the G.

The JV & XV racks have additional outputs...

 

But yeah it definitely has a place just maybe not for everyone.  I'm not sure I'd let FOH mix my sounds... But for people running drums, percussion tracks (we call them click tracks at church), or even for key bass.... for sure a place for it with board players who do both.  

 

With that said, I get what you mean still.  Thanks for the input! 

 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

I've used them, but not often.  Currently I had intended to use my Forte's extra output (just needed one of the two) to send a raw organ tone to a pedal.  As it turned out, my Modx and ipad have been at every gig so I haven't been using it, but that would be my main reason to do it--to have a separate signal flow where I wouldn't have to always remember to hit bypass.  The Forte (probably like others) has a per-patch destination (actually per-zone in a multi), so that when I use a particular patch it will switch to using the other outputs and that alternate signal flow.

I had my leslie pedal going into my submixer on a separate channel, so it really isn't any extra work in that regard.  The only extra is running the cable from the outputs into the pedal flow.

I can think of no reason to use extra outputs if you aren't using extra hardware.

Someone just the other day posted a question on one of my videos because he needed/wanted help with the sequencer... They use drum tracks from his keyboard during shows.  It would benefit people like that alot.  

 

And also being able to take a faderless keyboards and create a fader experience would help some.  

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

1 hour ago, TJ Cornish said:

I run click out of a sub out and have done so on every keyboard I’ve used for the last 15 years - OASYS, Kronos, Forte, Fantom.

 

Splitting out your parts to multiple outputs for recording may make sense; for live it means you have to trust your sound person to mix your parts better than you can. That hasn’t been my experience.

Definitely!!!  In studio for sure.  When you have sequenced a song... Being able to send more than 2 tracks out to the computer at once would have a ton of time!!!  Thanks for the input!

[Mighty Motif Max]

1 hour ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Hey Max.  Thanks for your responses.  With that said there are quite a few boards that don't have faders that have additional outputs.  

 

ALL of the Tritons

Krome didn't 

The first of the MO series had faders, then they left it off of the MOX & the MOXF. 

The Fantoms didn't have faders until the G.

The JV & XV racks have additional outputs...

 

But yeah it definitely has a place just maybe not for everyone.  I'm not sure I'd let FOH mix my sounds... But for people running drums, percussion tracks (we call them click tracks at church), or even for key bass.... for sure a place for it with board players who do both.  

 

With that said, I get what you mean still.  Thanks for the input! 

 

I guess I was thinking of more current boards. With the MOXF I thought you could assign knobs. Still, 9 times out of 10 I’m using the expression or mod wheel/stick for fading in/out vs sliders. I tend to forget that some people run clicks and tracks from their keyboards...in my mind if I was going to have to run clicks for the band I’d also probably be using some sort of tracks, at which point I’d likely just use a laptop (especially with some of the newer boards with no linear sequencers). That’s a good point that I hadn’t thought of.

 

The Krome did not have multiple outs - I owned one for 4 years and gigged regularly with it. Just the main stereo output pair and a headphone out. The Roland FA, however, did have a sub output but zero faders.

 

You did remind me - when I briefly put together a big rack + controller rig, I did make use of the volume knobs on my line mixer at times to rebalance each module. But I never gigged that setup; if I I’d I probably would have just set the PC4 to handle the volume changes between patches and of course what would fade in, etc. Still, with eight different rack modules I might have liked direct control. All that was going to a single stereo pair of outputs at the end of the day, not unlike one of the proposals mentioned in this thread.

 

I do think my goal at the end of the day is to, when pre-programming is possible, have things as streamlined as can be as far as things like set lists, patch changes, layer volume control, etc. The less I have to take more than a finger or two off the keys the better when I play (at least for solo gigs and worship bands). So I lean heavily on foot controls and the mod wheel to accomplish that. I’m not sure I’d enjoy tweaking mixer knobs to balance levels instead. However I could absolutely see how that would be handy in a non pre-programmed gig scenario where you don’t have time to selectively filter controllers for each zone or such. 

[Stokely]

I didn't even think about the click track aspect.  I've owned a number of workstation keyboards and haven't used the sequencer on any of them once    Or run tracks in a band, thankfully, though it would be kind of fun to be able to do arps that would sync to the drummer, if he was hearing a click.

[jarrell]

What would be nice is if you programmed, say the bass to go to the alternate output(s), but when your synth detected nothing was plugged into those outputs, it would default to routing the bass out of the main outputs. Sometimes I want left hand bass but on a quiet gig, so just out of my main speakers; other gigs if they require more volume and a separate bass amp, then I want the bass to go out the alternate outputs to the bass amp. What I don't want to do is have to duplicate all my multis just so I can have versions with the bass routed to the alternate outputs.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

4 hours ago, jarrell said:

What would be nice is if you programmed, say the bass to go to the alternate output(s), but when your synth detected nothing was plugged into those outputs, it would default to routing the bass out of the main outputs. Sometimes I want left hand bass but on a quiet gig, so just out of my main speakers; other gigs if they require more volume and a separate bass amp, then I want the bass to go out the alternate outputs to the bass amp. What I don't want to do is have to duplicate all my multis just so I can have versions with the bass routed to the alternate outputs.

That's a great idea. About the synth detecting something being plugged in.  

 

But if you own a Korg keyboard one thing that you may be able to do it program just the bass sound to go out of the alternate output then add that bass patch to your multi/combi.  If something is plugged into the out then it's ready to go.  If nothing is there then the sound doesn't go anywhere.  You would just go in an turn off whichever bass program you would not be using using the that song/sing (either one routed to main LR or alternate out...) So it wouldn't eat up polyphony. 

Or maybe some variation of this method...

If that makes sense. 

[Mills Dude]

For live play, not so much.  The best use case is for doing left hand bass where you want a separate out for the FOH.  If using outboard effects they can be useful, like running an organ patch through a leslie sim pedal.  But in my experience, FOH are happiest when you give the a single out that they can mark you on their fader as 'Keys'.

 

These workstations were designed as studio center pieces and when using the built-in sequencer, for sure separate outs.  But that's the old style.  

[marczellm]

I used the separate output for bass.

[DovJ]

5 hours ago, Mills Dude said:

For live play, not so much.  The best use case is for doing left hand bass where you want a separate out for the FOH.  If using outboard effects they can be useful, like running an organ patch through a leslie sim pedal.  But in my experience, FOH are happiest when you give the a single out that they can mark you on their fader as 'Keys'.

 

These workstations were designed as studio center pieces and when using the built-in sequencer, for sure separate outs.  But that's the old style.  

 

I use the 6 outputs of (each) my Access Virus TI2 and 1010Music Blackbox for recording purposes. I’ll sequence multiple tracks, then record them all at once into separate DAW tracks. 

 

This workflow just plain wouldn’t work without multiple outputs on these instruments.

[analogika]

I only have one project (Ivy Flindt) where I use output 3 from the Nord Stage 3 as a dedicated keyboard bass channel. The drummer and I split keyboard bass duties, so the FoH requested that I make it available separately for easier balancing. 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

3 hours ago, DovJ said:

 

I use the 6 outputs of (each) my Access Virus TI2 and 1010Music Blackbox for recording purposes. I’ll sequence multiple tracks, then record them all at once into separate DAW tracks. 

 

This workflow just plain wouldn’t work without multiple outputs on these instruments.

Yeah man and it would be a pain trying to line up start and stop times for each track in a daw BY HAND.....🤦🏾‍♂️

3 hours ago, analogika said:

I only have one project (Ivy Flindt) where I use output 3 from the Nord Stage 3 as a dedicated keyboard bass channel. The drummer and I split keyboard bass duties, so the FoH requested that I make it available separately for easier balancing. 

Drummer playing key bass???  How lol!!?

[eric]

Since 2011 I have used output 3 on the Nord Stage 2 and now Nord Stage 3 to send my organ sound into a Ventilator, which is then output in stereo to my mixer. It is so nice to have the organ on its own separate channel to adjust the volume independently, plus gaining the goodness of the Vent sound.

 

I send my Nord Stage 2/3 output 4 into my mixer and use it on rare occasions for sound FX/loops where it's helpful to be able to control this sort of thing independently.

 

Outputs 1/2 from the Nord are serving up stereo pianos, EPs, synths/samples.

 

The only other time I remember using a separate output longer ago was my Yamaha S90 - during my band's show, we tried to give the drummer a break and so I had a drum loop for the song Canteloupe Island that I fed out of a separate output, so the soundman could mix/EQ that drum loop separately from my piano or other sounds.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

43 minutes ago, eric said:

Since 2011 I have used output 3 on the Nord Stage 2 and now Nord Stage 3 to send my organ sound into a Ventilator, which is then output in stereo to my mixer. It is so nice to have the organ on its own separate channel to adjust the volume independently, plus gaining the goodness of the Vent sound.

 

I send my Nord Stage 2/3 output 4 into my mixer and use it on rare occasions for sound FX/loops where it's helpful to be able to control this sort of thing independently.

 

Outputs 1/2 from the Nord are serving up stereo pianos, EPs, synths/samples.

 

The only other time I remember using a separate output longer ago was my Yamaha S90 - during my band's show, we tried to give the drummer a break and so I had a drum loop for the song Canteloupe Island that I fed out of a separate output, so the soundman could mix/EQ that drum loop separately from my piano or other sounds.

Yes sir!!! This guy gets it!  Definitely some great benefits to the concept!!

[Adam Burgess]

On a recent gig, I used the individual outs on my Integra-7, and then went a step further, bussing in my mixer, additional USB inputs from multitracks on the Mac and a Triton. Sound guy got BVs, 808 Loops, Pianos, Synths, Strings/Pads, Brass Section, and the drummer got a click. 

[MathOfInsects]

Nice video!

 

Echoing others: I have used separate outputs for LH bass, for sending organ to Vent, and for triggered samples. Very handy in all those situations.

I can't personally imagine using them to mix layers after the fact, but I can see how someone doing EDM or real-time wave-/soundshaping could make use of that. It still feels little bit "engineery" as opposed to "playery," but could be a nice approach for some folks.

A downside I can think of is that not all patches or sounds come from a single board or source. So it's sort of a question mark to me what you'd send where, that would make it adjustable very quickly on the fly.

On the Nord, for example, I can have a patch with a two organ components, two keyboard components, and two synth components. So what's going where? If synth is universally routed to outputs 3-4, then I don't really have independent control over the two layers. And if I'm also playing a synth on a second board, which itself is layered, are those in the same output on that board as well? And are they going into the same channels on my mixer, or different ones?

If different ones, with a one-board set-up, ignoring a laptop rig for a second, I would potentially need L+R for two different keyboard types (4 inputs,) L+R for organ input) (+2), and L+R for two different synth inputs (+4). That's 10 just for that board. Adding a second board doubles that, or at least complicates it.

So when I chase that logic down, I land out on thinking it could be really cool as a studio option, and not terribly practical as a performance tool, short of the contexts already mentioned.
 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

42 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Nice video!

 

Echoing others: I have used separate outputs for LH bass, for sending organ to Vent, and for triggered samples. Very handy in all those situations.

I can't personally imagine using them to mix layers after the fact, but I can see how someone doing EDM or real-time wave-/soundshaping could make use of that. It still feels little bit "engineery" as opposed to "playery," but could be a nice approach for some folks.

A downside I can think of is that not all patches or sounds come from a single board or source. So it's sort of a question mark to me what you'd send where, that would make it adjustable very quickly on the fly.

On the Nord, for example, I can have a patch with a two organ components, two keyboard components, and two synth components. So what's going where? If synth is universally routed to outputs 3-4, then I don't really have independent control over the two layers. And if I'm also playing a synth on a second board, which itself is layered, are those in the same output on that board as well? And are they going into the same channels on my mixer, or different ones?

If different ones, with a one-board set-up, ignoring a laptop rig for a second, I would potentially need L+R for two different keyboard types (4 inputs,) L+R for organ input) (+2), and L+R for two different synth inputs (+4). That's 10 just for that board. Adding a second board doubles that, or at least complicates it.

So when I chase that logic down, I land out on thinking it could be really cool as a studio option, and not terribly practical as a performance tool, short of the contexts already mentioned.
 

Well in church we layer sounds on the fly.  And adjust layers as we move through the service.  Or.... Bringing various elements in and out during a song.  (So that could be used in alot of places outside of church)

 

Like for example, a

piano and string or pad. Or a piano with a synth layered on top.  Then you just adjust the faders for whichever sound you need more or less of.  Make sense? 

 

As I mentioned, Keyboards like the mox, MOXF, Nautilus, etc.... Don't have faders so they don't allow "fader" control of sounds in your set.  

 

In your example with the Nord, you would route all the sounds out of the different outs.  But if you only have 2 sets (or stereo, so four outs), you won't be able to be as flexible as the keyboard that has 6 sets (or 3 stereo pairs of outs). 

 

With a setup like you mentioned, it may be beneficial to uses busses out of the mixer....  So after everything get to the mixer, you then bus it out accordingly... So like synths on a bus,  organ on a bus, etc ... And only saying that since your setup is so complex and sounds are coming from so many different sources. 

 

 

 

 

 

[synthizen2]

My PC3 has a pair of auxiliary outputs, which I never use.

 

However, my MOX8... while only having a single stereo pair of outputs... has one trick up its sleeve that I definitely use:  a pair of stereo INPUTS!

 

To make things simple for both myself and FOH, I run a pair of cables from the main OUTS of my PC3 to the INPUTS of the MOX8, and there's a volume knob on the MOX8 to adjust the amount of signal coming into the MOX8 from the PC3, which I use to balance the mixed signals... then the stereo OUTS of the MOX8 goes to FOH.

 

I monitor myself using the headphone OUT of the MOX8 directly to my spot monitor. So, technically speaking, I am using ALL of the available outputs of the MOX8, by using the headphone OUT as an "auxiliary out".

[analogika]

8 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Drummer playing key bass???  How lol!!?

 

Example at 9:35

[Al Coda]

IMO this over 1hr performance belongs to he "shameless plugs" section,- no ?

 

And I don´t recognize the drummer playing key bass,- so at least I hope you´re using ext. outputs on your NERD Stage.

 

 

A.C.

[MathOfInsects]

3 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Well in church we layer sounds on the fly.  And adjust layers as we move through the service.  Or.... Bringing various elements in and out during a song.  (So that could be used in alot of places outside of church)

 

Like for example, a

piano and string or pad. Or a piano with a synth layered on top.  Then you just adjust the faders for whichever sound you need more or less of.  Make sense? 

 

As I mentioned, Keyboards like the mox, MOXF, Nautilus, etc.... Don't have faders so they don't allow "fader" control of sounds in your set.  

 

In your example with the Nord, you would route all the sounds out of the different outs.  But if you only have 2 sets (or stereo, so four outs), you won't be able to be as flexible as the keyboard that has 6 sets (or 3 stereo pairs of outs). 

 

With a setup like you mentioned, it may be beneficial to uses busses out of the mixer....  So after everything get to the mixer, you then bus it out accordingly... So like synths on a bus,  organ on a bus, etc ... And only saying that since your setup is so complex and sounds are coming from so many different sources. 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, that's the thing. There's nothing at all complicated about my set-up. Two boards, that's it. Using different outputs for right and left or for different types of sounds from two different boards, would make my set-up needlessly unwieldy and contrived, and wouldn't let me mix and level in the way you describe--for me. As far as adjusting strings and pianos against each other, that's dead easy on the Nord--it's the same knob turn as on my mixer, but right under fingers where I'm playing. But again, I think there could be a benefit in it for sure for someone working with EDM or other loop-based or electronic music, and also for producing. And watching your video did make me want to check out others, so I'll be doing that as well.

[analogika]

50 minutes ago, Al Coda said:

IMO this over 1hr performance belongs to he "shameless plugs" section,- no ?

 

And I don´t recognize the drummer playing key bass,- so at least I hope you´re using ext. outputs on your NERD Stage.

 

 

A.C.

Sorry. 9:35 for one example

[DovJ]

23 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Yeah man and it would be a pain trying to line up start and stop times for each track in a daw BY HAND.....🤦🏾‍♂️