Tone Woods....Not!

[Paul K]

Ladies and Gentlemen;

 

I've long said that with CNC machining, body and neck construction and construction materials are highly over rated.  Pickups, strings, setup are 95% of electric guitars and basses.

It appears I was off by 5%.

 

You'll dig this.

Cheers, Paul K

 

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Paul K said:

Ladies and Gentlemen;

 

I've long said that with CNC machining, body and neck construction and construction materials are highly over rated.  Pickups, strings, setup are 95% of electric guitars and basses.

It appears I was off by 5%.

 

You'll dig this.

Cheers, Paul K

 

I have some observations to share on this topic. First, there may be a bit more variation in the tone comparison if he were to plug the guitars DI into a quality digital interface set for a pristine clean sound and record them, in fact I'm certain of it.

 

He's got a "Dumble" sort of singing overdrive tone set on his amp. It sounds great, but... the more gain and distortion you have set on an amplifier, the less difference you will detect in tones from one guitar to the next. He's not got it set to a heavy metal sound, it's more subtle but it is still a factor in how similar his tones are. 

 

Yes, comparing Tele to Tele, there's not much difference there. Teles sound like Teles, that's why I like them. He's not swapping in profoundly different parts either, mostly very similar. If you have a maple neck, switching fretboard woods is more of a color preference than a tone preference.

 

On the other hand, you will notice a tone difference in a slimmer Fender maple neck vs a Warmoth 1 7/8" at the nut Fatback (my personal preference). I put a lot of these differences down to one basic change - how much of the energy of the string is "robbed" by the part in question. In the example above of a slim neck vs. a thicker one, the strings can resonate the thinner neck more since there is less mass to move. 

 

Fret size, weight has a similar effect. Nut material can make a very small difference on the open strings. The types of string trees and tuners can change tones a small amount. If you swapped in a lightweight mahogany neck and a chambered alder body, you would hear that too. I hear a very subtle improvement in tone using a neck that has threaded inserts and bolts instead of screws into the wood for the mounting. 

 

You mention wood and construction, of the two construction makes the bigger difference by far but wood can make a smaller difference if the change is profound - light single piece mahogany compared to laminated hardwoods for instance. 

And, a chambered Les Paul does have a different tone than a completely solid one. A 335 has the same neck and hardware as an SG but they don't sound the same - the neck joint is different and the body is completely different. 

 

Hardware, I mention it above, it does matter. A wrap-around bridge sounds different than a TOM with a tailpiece. Add a floating bridge or a Bigsby and all bets are off. Locking tuners sound different, partly due to the added weight on one of the lightest parts of the guitar. Fender style bridges have lots of "fugitive" threads, they are not locked into place. The bridge for a G&L ASAT has 2 set screws so after you've got the intonation correct you can lock the saddles in place. More even, more sustain and your saddles don't vibrate into other positions like they will on a Fender. 

 

Small changes, all of it. Add them together and it can make enough difference to matter.

 

Another guitarist asked me once how I got "my tone". I handed him my pick. Nobody seems to want to change their pick or how they use it. It makes more difference in your tone than the guitar in my opinion. It's been a long slow evolutionary process for me to transition from thinner picks to much thicker ones. 

I still use thin picks for some sounds in the studio, strumming an acoustic guitar for one. Or I use my fingers, another sound entirely. 

 

 

 

[Scott Fraser]

44 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

I have some observations to share on this topic. First, there may be a bit more variation in the tone comparison if he were to plug the guitars DI into a quality digital interface set for a pristine clean sound and record them, in fact I'm certain of it.

Always the case. The fact that 90% of YouTubes utilize overdriven tones to demonstrate something other than the overdrive device is just typical of how poorly informed a lot of so-called experts can be. I generally turn off any video when they get to the distortion settings, at least if they're talking ostensibly about guitars or guitar parts.

44 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

On the other hand, you will notice a tone difference in a slimmer Fender maple neck vs a Warmoth 1 7/8" at the nut Fatback (my personal preference). I put a lot of these differences down to one basic change - how much of the energy of the string is "robbed" by the part in question. In the example above of a slim neck vs. a thicker one, the strings can resonate the thinner neck more since there is less mass to move.

Less mass means more string vibration is transferred to the neck, which we interpret as resonance. More mass means the energy stays in the string longer, less is transferred out of the string, thus more sustain.

[desertbluesman]

Interesting, I always thought woods made much more a difference.

[Anderton]

Weight and sustain are influenced by wood. Gibson used the wood that was grown close to rivers for their more expensive guitars, because the additional moisture made a difference in density and sustain. They were also heavier, but hey, there are always tradeoffs...right? 

[desertbluesman]

Yep Craig nothing sounds like a Les Paul Custom, I had 4 or 5 of then over the years, mostly black ones but one Cherry sunburst. Also a pict of my Faded SG, that SG was the best guitar for a truly spot on fingerboard that I ever owned bar none. That is the only guitar of the many that I had that did not need any tweaking work at all.

[KuruPrionz]

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

Weight and sustain are influenced by wood. Gibson used the wood that was grown close to rivers for their more expensive guitars, because the additional moisture made a difference in density and sustain. They were also heavier, but hey, there are always tradeoffs...right? 

Weight and sustain ARE influenced by wood. There are other factors and other ways around it. 

A few more ounces of metal in a bridge can make a bigger difference than 3 or 4 pounds of wood weight spread out over the entire instrument. I've got an original Floyd Rose bridge made by Schaller that is pre-fine tuners. The saddles are locked into place with set screws to a hefty plate of hardened steel that is in turn locked to a block of metal with holes to fasten the vibrato springs. If you just mounted that bridge immobile to a light but stiff piece of material it will out sustain a heavy guitar (not counting the solid brass Ibanez Artist I saw at NAMM a LONG time ago!!!). Stiffness in the string path means more for sustain than a hefty lower bout. 

 

[Larryz]

Tone woods make a big difference on acoustic guitars plugged and unplugged, cedar vs spruce tops, not so much on electrics.  Pickups make the big difference on electric guitars along with pots and caps and switches. Fretboards are more for feel than tone.  However solid spruce tops on semi-hollow and hollow body electrics vs. laminated tops, does make a difference IMHO.  Mahogany bodies also make a difference on electric solid bodies as well....IMHO.  Back and sides maple vs walnut vs rosewood can make a difference on acoustics, not so much on electrics.  A lot of it is visual which may get your juices flowing.  Like Kuru says picks also make a difference and +1,000 on Scott's comment regarding don't demo a guitar on YT plugged in to distortion or O/D, effects.  I want to hear it clean or not at all...😎

 

ps.  I liked the OP's demo video and comparison tests.  

[RABid]

Judging by the preview picture (I'll admit that I did not yet watch the video) he is using wood. Lots of it. Two workshop tables worth. Tone is not just how the vibration of the string bounces off of the underlying wood, it is also about how those strings attach at each end. How much resistance there is to the pull of the string during the pluck and resulting vibration. Each end of his "air" guitar is securely mounted to heavy wood. A better test would be to take wood totally out of the system. Mount the tailpiece and tuners into a metal frame and maybe a few other materials and see what happens to the sound.

 

Edit: To be a bit more clear. When you tune a guitar the string causes a pull at each end. The tuners transfer that pull into the headstock. the tailpiece transfers it to the wood that it is mounted to. When silent and the tuners are not moving that stress on the wood is constant. When you pluck a string, the pluck stretches the string and causes an increase in tension. The tension goes back to norm as the string straightens and then increases a bit again as the string vibrates to the other side. The outer limits of the vibration is when the wire string is stretched the most and thus has more pull on the wood. For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. As the pull of the string on the wood changes with the vibration, the pull of the wood on the string also changes. Compared to metal or rock, wood is soft will have more give than other materials. On a fully wood guitar that transfer of energy can pass through the neck and the body of the guitar, giving ever so slightly to the pull of the string as the stress changes back and forth at a rate of the vibration of the note. In his system the energy, and every so slight give of the wood goes through the tabletop, and even down through the legs to the floor mount.

[Larryz]

Something I just thought about regarding Tone Woods.  You ever hear the difference between a one-piece wood carved saddle bridge on a jazzy archtop guitar and a tune-o-matic plastic or metal saddle bridge.  A huge difference IMHO having nothing to do with the electronics.  The George Benson guitar comes with both so you can decide which "tone" wood or otherwise, you prefer.  Also, on a floating bridge with wood carved saddles, you do not want to pin it so that you can adjust intonation.  With TOM bridges you can have the bridge pinned so that it doesn't move and still be able to adjust intonation.  I wonder why the OP video doesn't go into this area of discussion as the metal Tele barrel bridges used do make a big difference in "Tone" when comparing with wooden carved bridges (especially when the intonation is way off).  Carved wooden bridges sound too dark for me, but jazzers love them...😎

[The Real MC]

Resonance goes a long way to good tone on a guitar, which is why the first thing I do when I audition a guitar is to play it UNPLUGGED.  That way you can judge from the resonance how good the tone of the guitar will be.  That is how I picked my guitars/basses.  I'm not a high gain amp player.

 

When I tested my friends' good guitars they also had good resonance.

 

In my experience this has as much of an impact as well as strings, pickups, or electronics.  The problem is it is either inherent in the wood or it isn't.  Changing pickups, strings, electronics, bridges, et al does no good if the wood in the guitar have poor resonance.  Even some of the vintage Les Paul sunburst guitars had poor resonance.  Yeah you can buy replacement bodies and necks, but you have to sort through THOSE to find the resonant ones.  There's a lot of dispute over resonance in a solid body guitar but it is the standard I have used and from the feedback I get from players who tried my guitars - some VERY discriminating players - it hasn't failed me yet.

[Caevan O’Shite]

21 hours ago, RABid said:

Judging by the preview picture (I'll admit that I did not yet watch the video) he is using wood. Lots of it. Two workshop tables worth.

☝️ THIS.

This video demonstration is, frankly, flawed, invalid, meaningless.

[desertbluesman]

I never really noticed if the woods mattered in my electric guitars. I just always adjusted my tone so that all of my guitars sounded similar (with the help of my pedals) I always thought the string length and pickup types made the biggest difference in the tone. For instance I use a Boss BD 2 Blues Driver to boost the output of my Strat Clone with Fender Vintage Noiseless pups to equal the output volume to my hum-bucking guitars, all of my guitars have a 25-1/2 inch scale as does the strat clone. I also use the tone control on the BD 2 to cut the trebs down on the strat clone to make the strat clone tone similar to the other guitars. For some reason my Super Champ X2 does not need the BD 2 to make the tone similar, only a the slight volume drop is evident. But my other amps needed the BD 2 to equal the tone and volume boost. All that said I do adjust the amp tone controls to cut down the ice picky pick attack on all of my guitars. Of course when I am in practice I can mitigate that pick attack with careful attention on my picking technique as well.

 

So my conclusion is; The tone woods only have a slight difference in tone on all of my guitars if the string length is similar except for my old Les Paul Custom  guitars, those always had the neatest & deepest tone with greater sustain. My SG's and the one ES 345 I owned never equaled the LP Custom in tone and sustain.

[RABid]

When I was young and starting piano lessons I noticed that my piano teacher's piano was much brighter sounding than mine. It was not the wood making such a noticeable difference, it was the hardness of the felt hammers. As a drummer in high school I finally talked my parents into buying a used set of Ludwig acrylic drums to replace the cheap Sears Robuck set that I had learned on. Boy was I surprised to find that the cheap wood set sounded better to my ears. It took a lot of work to get a good sound out of acrylic drums. Been collecting snare drums and can tell you that depth and material type is what makes the difference in drum sounds. I cannot tell much difference between oak, maple and myrtle wood.

 

As for guitars, I would like to know, what is it that makes a Taylor sound different than a Martin? I finally ended my acoustic journey with a Taylor 815cd DLX because of comfort and size. Those become as important as sound when you pass 60. 😎

[CEB]

Pressure treated Fir is definitely the best. I am going to tear down my deck and build another Tele. 
 

 

[Larryz]

Rabid, One of the biggest things that make a Taylor sound different than a Martin, is the person playing them.  Materials, Workmanship and Love would make a Gibson sound different than a Takamine as well as any other brand comparison.  +1 on finding the right fit as we get older...😎

 

CEB, Good thing your deck is not made out of Mahogany as I liked it the best.  Thanks for the video!  😎

[Jon Levy]

I gotta admit, I found Jim Lill's video pretty compelling and very well executed. It also spurred a cool discussion. I'm not sure if it completely changed anyone's mind on the importance of tonewoods (or lack of importance) but I appreciate a smartly provocative missive.

 

I still find myself drooling over guitars with highly figured wood tops. I'm a sucker for gorgeous wood, regardless of the tonal properties.

[KuruPrionz]

On 2/9/2022 at 12:33 PM, RABid said:

When I was young and starting piano lessons I noticed that my piano teacher's piano was much brighter sounding than mine. It was not the wood making such a noticeable difference, it was the hardness of the felt hammers. As a drummer in high school I finally talked my parents into buying a used set of Ludwig acrylic drums to replace the cheap Sears Robuck set that I had learned on. Boy was I surprised to find that the cheap wood set sounded better to my ears. It took a lot of work to get a good sound out of acrylic drums. Been collecting snare drums and can tell you that depth and material type is what makes the difference in drum sounds. I cannot tell much difference between oak, maple and myrtle wood.

 

As for guitars, I would like to know, what is it that makes a Taylor sound different than a Martin? I finally ended my acoustic journey with a Taylor 815cd DLX because of comfort and size. Those become as important as sound when you pass 60. 😎

Taylor guitars are not duplicates of Martins. They use a different bracing pattern and probably different thicknesses of the braces, just for one thing (a pretty big thing too). The neck joint is completely different, the Taylor neck is mounted with a bolt, that adds weight and stiffness to that area of the guitar plus glue in the neck joint can reduce transmission of vibration, Martin glues their necks in. 

 

Is any of this good or bad? Too subjective to rate, really. 

I sat once at the music shop and tried out probably a dozen brand new Gibson Les Pauls. There were some differences, one of the heaviest ones sounded like a wet log and one of lightest ones sang like a bird. I decided I didn't like the access to the high frets and didn't buy any of them. Got a 335 instead and it sounds different than it did when I got it. Putting heavier locking tuners on it and bolting the bridge down ( a vintage Schecter bridge with locking saddles) both changed the tone of the guitar. 

 

Two things matter, resonance and mass. Think of the difference between a banjo and a Les Paul and all the variations in-between. Some of those variations ARE wood and others are not. 

[Sharkman]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:19 PM, desertbluesman said:

Interesting, I always thought woods made much more a difference.

Every guitar manufacturer seems to think so, too.

[desertbluesman]

11 hours ago, Sharkman said:

Every guitar manufacturer seems to think so, too.

Maybe it is more hype than fact. Maybe not. When I was building my own guitar from kits I always liked Swamp Ash for looks. I am not sure how much the woods mean for tone, but I can say my Old Les Paul's always sounded deeper and fuller than my other Gibson's.

[Jon Levy]

My two Les Pauls have an inherently different sound from each other due to wood/construction. Having said that, I've come to believe a couple of things -- one of them obvious, one of them not. (1) Finding the right pickup / electronics is the most important choice, because they can radically change the electrified tone of a guitar. The wrong choice can make a great guitar sound dull and crappy; in contrast, the right choice can make a mediocre guitar sound surprisingly good. Of course, it all depends on what you consider "good" tone. (2) The size/heft of the neck has a noticeable (and underappreciated) impact. All things being equal, a thicker, heftier neck seems to bring better resonance and depth to a guitar's tone. I don't have scientific evidence to back this up -- I'm just an intuitive knucklehead on a lot of topics -- but I've gradually come to this conclusion over the years. I used to obsess over sexy body woods. Now I obsess over neck wood and heft. I think I'm de-evolving, TBH.

[Winston Psmith]

Just to muddy the waters even further . . .

 

My favorite Acoustic and A/E Guitars are Ovations. Yes, they sound much better plugged in, but I've been playing Ovations since the mid-1970's, and it's still my main A/E Guitar, even unplugged. The Legends and Custom Legends that I like tend to have better-quality Maple tops, but they ALL have that composite material for a body. Hard to say how much of a factor the top wood is in their Acoustic sound?

 

In the solid body world, I've always Mahogany planks with HB's, and SG's in particular. Having said that, I could definitely feel a difference between my U.S.-made SG Specials and my Epiphone G-400. The G-400 felt . . . spongy is the best word I can come up? Even unplugged, it didn't have the snappy response of the others. It turns out that Epiphone is a little cagey about what constitutes "Mahogany", when it comes to their solid body Guitars.

 

FWIW, the G-400 was well-made, with a nice smooth neck, no rough fret edges, decent if not exceptional PU's, in short, there was nothing really wrong with it. I traded it in after I got my second 2003 SG Special, in part because I didn't see the point in having three SG's (not that it's a bad thing . . .), but mostly because I could really feel a difference between the G-400 and the other two, and the G-400 just didn't measure up. In this case, it was really about the feel of the Guitar, and not the sound, but I attribute the feel entirely to the woods.

[KuruPrionz]

4 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

Just to muddy the waters even further . . .

 

My favorite Acoustic and A/E Guitars are Ovations. Yes, they sound much better plugged in, but I've been playing Ovations since the mid-1970's, and it's still my main A/E Guitar, even unplugged. The Legends and Custom Legends that I like tend to have better-quality Maple tops, but they ALL have that composite material for a body. Hard to say how much of a factor the top wood is in their Acoustic sound?

 

In the solid body world, I've always Mahogany planks with HB's, and SG's in particular. Having said that, I could definitely feel a difference between my U.S.-made SG Specials and my Epiphone G-400. The G-400 felt . . . spongy is the best word I can come up? Even unplugged, it didn't have the snappy response of the others. It turns out that Epiphone is a little cagey about what constitutes "Mahogany", when it comes to their solid body Guitars.

 

FWIW, the G-400 was well-made, with a nice smooth neck, no rough fret edges, decent if not exceptional PU's, in short, there was nothing really wrong with it. I traded it in after I got my second 2003 SG Special, in part because I didn't see the point in having three SG's (not that it's a bad thing . . .), but mostly because I could really feel a difference between the G-400 and the other two, and the G-400 just didn't measure up. In this case, it was really about the feel of the Guitar, and not the sound, but I attribute the feel entirely to the woods.

And here I am, with two Rainsong acoustic guitars. They are 100% graphite and resin compounds, no wood of any kind anywhere. 

I had a Martin D-35, a really good one and I loved it for decades. After I got my six string Rainsong, it sat around in the case for a few years and I sold it to somebody who loved to play it. I realized that I was unlikely to ever play it again. So much for wood...

[surfergirl]

Just looking at Squier Telecasters, and on their gold series they are using nyatoh for their body wood. I've never heard of that being used before. The gold series are the top of the Squier line, $599. So I imagine it must be better than poplar or basswood.

[desertbluesman]

2 hours ago, surfergirl said:

Just looking at Squier Telecasters, and on their gold series they are using nyatoh for their body wood. I've never heard of that being used before. The gold series are the top of the Squier line, $599. So I imagine it must be better than poplar or basswood.

In the Phillipines, Indonesia or India, nyatoh wood is considered a workable and useful hardwood for boats, cabinets and utility construction. It isn't particularly attractive or durable, but it's common. Nyatoh wood is increasingly finding its way into North America as low-cost outdoor furniture, flooring and veneer. In fact, environmental groups, such as Rainforest Relief, warn that nyatoh logging should be curtailed to protect forests and indigenous ways of life.

Characteristics

The Janka hardness rating of nyatoh -- genus palaquium and payene -- is around 1,171, making it harder than teak but not as hard as red oak. It is only a third as hard as the hardest species, which is Brazilian walnut, or ipe. It is a pale pinkish or reddish wood with a subtle, straight grain that resembles lauan, or Philippine mahogany, although nyatoh is somewhat darker. Even though it is commonly used for exterior applications, it doesn't have much natural resistance to rot or insects and deteriorates rapidly if left outdoors without the protection of a finish.

Workability and Uses

Compared to most exotic hardwoods, nyatoh is a relatively soft wood, but its often-high silica content makes it hard on saws and shaping blades. Boards often contain natural gums that collect on blades, further complicating the task of working with them. Add to this the sour odor that emerges from nyatoh wood while it is being cut, shaped or sanded, and you have a material that cabinetmakers prefer to bypass. It's rare to find the wood as a raw material, anyway. Most of it comes to North America pre-fabricated into furniture, plywood or other materials.

[Winston Psmith]

I have to ask, is this the same wood we'd previously seen listed as "Nato"? I've seen that used in place of real Mahogany on import Guitars, for quite a while now.

[surfergirl]

I had the same question. I've been looking at Squier Telecasters, and the classic vibe 60's used nato. The short answer is no. Nyatoh, as DMB said, is rated at 1171lbf and nato(mora) is rated at 2300lbf.

[Jon Levy]

Seems that Nyatoh 1171 lbf is roughly comparable in hardness to Swamp Ash 1320 lbf. I looked up more info online and was surprised to see Basswood at 470 lbf and Mohagany at 800-900 lbf. I learn something new every day on this forum!

[SwelkDort]

What an interesting thread, guys! You made me remember a story when Jimmy Page asked Gibson to make a double guitar. It's still the unique one. LMK if I'm wrong. But, you know, when we talk about how the wood affects the guitar sound, why do we never talk about the plectrums' impact on the sound? Just take a look at how my picks there exist https://ironageaccessories.com/collections/guitar-picks. And all of them uniquely affect the sound. Do you know anything about it? I'd be really excited to hear something interesting if you do. Just LMK in the reply. TIA

[KuruPrionz]

10 hours ago, SwelkDort said:

What an interesting thread, guys! You made me remember a story when Jimmy Page asked Gibson to make a double guitar. It's still the unique one. LMK if I'm wrong. But, you know, when we talk about how the wood affects the guitar sound, why do we never talk about the plectrums' impact on the sound? Just take a look at how my picks there exist https://ironageaccessories.com/collections/guitar-picks. And all of them uniquely affect the sound. Do you know anything about it? I'd be really excited to hear something interesting if you do. Just LMK in the reply. TIA

In the second post on this thread, I said the following 

"Another guitarist asked me once how I got "my tone". I handed him my pick. Nobody seems to want to change their pick or how they use it. It makes more difference in your tone than the guitar in my opinion. It's been a long slow evolutionary process for me to transition from thinner picks to much thicker ones. 

I still use thin picks for some sounds in the studio, strumming an acoustic guitar for one. Or I use my fingers, another sound entirely."

 

So, there you are. Picks and/or fingers/nails DO make a difference.