7 b9 scale fingering pattern?

[omvibes]

Hello all,

Did a search here but couldn't find anything (although I seem to remember it was discussed sometime ago?).

What's the conventional fingering pattern for a 7 b9 scale, ie (in C) C, C#, D#, E, F#, G, A, A# C? I am trying 1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3 in the RH, 4,3,2,1,3,2,1,2,1 in the LH, but it doesn't feel smooth, and in other keys this finger pattern doesn't seem to work for me. Is there a conventional fingering pattern for this scale, or could someone point me to a resource with such details? An internet search has elicited no help thus far.

Thanks in advance!

[ElmerJFudd]

Yeah, your fingering feels good and follows conventional patterns/shapes. Although, when playing right hand alone over chord, I like 1,2,3 1,3 1,2,3

[BbAltered]

C-C#-D#-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C. That's what I was taught to call a "diminished" scale - more properly a "half-whole" diminished scale. As far as fingering is concerned, I will tell you what I was taught, and what has worked well for me: use whatever fingering works for you.

 

The good news here is that - like the diminished 7th chords - there are only three of them to learn. The C diminished scale is exactly the same as the Eb, F#, and A diminished scale; the C# diminished scale is exactly the same as the E, G, and Bb diminished scales; the D diminished scale is exactly the same as the F, Ab, and B diminished scales.

 

Use the "half/whole" diminished scale when playing over the corresponding dominant seventh chord: i.e. the C half/whole diminished scale is used over a C dom. seventh chord (or the Eb dom. 7th, the F# dom. 7th, and the A dom. 7th chords), or C dom. 7th variants (C9, C7#9, C7b9, etc.- so long as the chord has a maj 3rd and a minor 7th)

 

I recently learned that the so-called "whole/half" scale is ALSO a diminished scale, but is used when one is soloing over the corresponding diminished 7th chord. So use the C whole/half diminished scale when soloing over a C dim 7th chord. I don't practice the whole/half scale because the C whole/half diminished scale is exactly the same as the B half/whole diminished scale.

 

Bottom line: use whatever fingering works for you, and you only have 3 unique scales to learn/practice.

[nadroj]

123,12,123 for RH for me on that particular one. Remember to practice overly slowly to start with. I usually pratice at 8bpm, playing whole notes, then half notes, then triplets, then quarter notes.

[Irena]

RH for me:

 

123,13,123 starting on C.

3,123,123,1 starting on Db.

13,123, 123 starting on D.

[omvibes]

Thanks for all the input and suggestions, all very helpful. Is there any resource out there which covers fingering options/ best practices for more 'exotic' scales?

[BbAltered]

Thanks for all the input and suggestions, all very helpful. Is there any resource out there which covers fingering options/ best practices for more 'exotic' scales?

 

Best Practices: Use 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1 when you can - it will become apparent when this doesn't work. I use 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1 for all major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and altered scales - the starting finger varies depending on what scale/key you are playing, but the 3-4 pattern holds for all these scales in all 12 keys . For blues scales,pentatonic scales, and diminished scales, I have to use a different fingering - and for me the fingering seems to be unique and idiosyncratic for these scales in the different keys.

 

In general, if the scale includes black notes, I try to get fingers 3 and 4 up on a black note because this makes passing the thumb under easier. So for F major scale, I play 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-1. I avoid playing the thumb on a black note where I can.

 

If memory serves, the fingering for the major, harmonic minor, and melodic minor for all 12 keys are written out in Book 2 of the Hanon Exercises.

 

For all scales, focus on keeping your fingers and wrists relaxed and loose. As nadroj suggests, set the metronome really slow and play quarters, eights, eight-note triplets, and sixteenths. If you are obsessive like me, add in the swing eights and the swing sixteenths - and keep the fingers hands, and wrists relaxed and loose.

 

Did I mention the importance of keeping the fingers, hands, and wrists loose? Work on keeping the shoulders and back loose as well.

[Al Quinn]

Yeah, your fingering feels good and follows conventional patterns/shapes. Although, when playing right hand alone over chord, I like 1,2,3 1,3 1,2,3

+1

 

3 on the F# provides better economy of motion for me (as compared to 2 on the F#)

[MAJUSCULE]

RH for me:

 

123,13,123 starting on C.

3,123,123,1 starting on Db.

13,123, 123 starting on D.

 

Yup, these are fluid and efficient for me as well.

 

I asked Mike Lemmler (of the Funky Meters and the George Porter Jr. Trio) about his amazing runs and he said he really only used three fingers most of the time.

[omvibes]

Thanks for all the thoughts and comments, will investigate them further. Much appreciated!

[stoo schultz]

Another way to look at it -- a diminished scale is the first four notes in two minor scales a tritone apart. And you can play both with 1234 in the RH, or 4321 in the LH.

 

So in this case the two scales are C# minor and G minor, or E minor and Bb minor.

 

Diminished scale has 8 tones (plus octave) while all other diatonic scales have 7 notes (+ octave), so it might help to think of it like this as two groups of four notes, which makes it a bit more portable as we're usually familiar with all the minor scales.