How relevant is getting your time signature "right" in MIDI?

[AROIOS]

I've seen countless straight 8-Beat and 16-Beat tunes bearing a 4/4 time signature on published scores, not to mention swing and shuffle beats what are more like 6 and 12 beats hidden behind a disguise of 4/4.

 

In a computer sequencer, none of that time signature mumble jumble matters as long as you get the tempo and the relative position of the notes right. It's all just simple math based on multiples of 2s and 3s (not considering the less common beats like 5 and 7 for now)

I don't understand. That is literally what a time signature *is*: a way to write down the combination of multiples of 2 and/or 3 needed to play a piece.

 

Are you asking what use it is when you're talking to a computer? Because in my world, a considerable amount of music is still played by *people*, who will often reference common notation to be on the same page, as it were.

 

As for the "disguise": Swing is usually notated as 4/4 with a note above saying that two written quavers are actually triplets consisting of a quarter and an eighth note, because it's easier to read that way. 12/8 is different, because it assumes that the second triplet is also going to be played.

 

if it's 12/8, I WRITE 12/8, not least because writing everything in 4/4 and adding triplet brackets across everything is annoying.

 

You're right, simply because I can sequence a 4-beat swing/shuffle pattern in a 6/8-based piano-roll grid, doesn't necessarily make the pattern a 6-beat one.

 

Things get interesting when we blur the boundary between the 2-multiple and 3-multiple based beat counts.

 

In the attached example, I first played the 2/4 shuffle (1st bar) and 4/4 swing (3rd bar) beats at their normal tempo and then slowed them down (2nd bar and 4th bar). You can clearly hear how much they start to sound like 6/8 and 12/8 beats respectively at a slower tempo.

 

The mojo is in the ride cymbal. Which I purposely arranged to accentuate the "second triplet" as you mentioned. This little twist makes the relatively plain sounding shuffle and swing beats more interesting, largely because of the added level of ambiguity between 2-multiple and 3-multiple beat counts.

 

Click Here For Audio

[MathOfInsects]

Swing has always been a polyrhythm. But it's also never really been "the last note of a triplet" or "the 16th tied to a dotted 8th." As soon as it is robotic, it doesn't swing any more. So your sample is not terribly informative, since the shuffle wouldn't really be on a 6-beat grid, as it is here. However, your perception that rhythmic ambiguity is what gives swing its momentum, is apt.

 

As a player, you can hear 12/8 as a "big 4" or a couple of "small 6's (or 3's)." Often you adjust how you decide to hear it based on what else is going on in the moment. Sometimes the 12 is so baked in to the larger 4 that no one is even mentioning it and you can still hear it "in there." That is *not* the case during a shuffle.

 

I just had the idea that maybe you could post in the Drum forum here and have someone send you an 8-bar loop in 12/8 and in 4/4 shuffle, and you could play around with those live samples to see where they really sit on your MIDI map. It will help get you out of map/math world and into ear/playing world, which might clarify some of these distinctions more quickly.

[ProfD]

I just had the idea that maybe you could post in the Drum forum here and have someone send you an 8-bar loop in 12/8 and in 4/4 shuffle, and you could play around with those live samples to see where they really sit on your MIDI map. It will help get you out of map/math world and into ear/playing world, which might clarify some of these distinctions more quickly.

Brotha MOI, that is the best advice in this thread. KC rocks.

[MathOfInsects]

Otherwise, you end up with this:

 

[AROIOS]

Swing has always been a polyrhythm. But it's also never really been "the last note of a triplet" or "the 16th tied to a dotted 8th." As soon as it is robotic, it doesn't swing any more. So your sample is not terribly informative, since the shuffle wouldn't really be on a 6-beat grid, as it is here. However, your perception that rhythmic ambiguity is what gives swing its momentum, is apt.

 

As a player, you can hear 12/8 as a "big 4" or a couple of "small 6's (or 3's)." Often you adjust how you decide to hear it based on what else is going on in the moment. Sometimes the 12 is so baked in to the larger 4 that no one is even mentioning it and you can still hear it "in there." That is *not* the case during a shuffle.

 

I just had the idea that maybe you could post in the Drum forum here and have someone send you an 8-bar loop in 12/8 and in 4/4 shuffle, and you could play around with those live samples to see where they really sit on your MIDI map. It will help get you out of map/math world and into ear/playing world, which might clarify some of these distinctions more quickly.

 

Thanks for your advice. My example above is purely for analytical purposes. I'm fully aware of how the defining stokes in traditional shuffle and swing don't usually land squarely on the 3-multiples. However, that subtlety is incidental to our understanding of the fundamental importance of the 2s and 3s in music, and the intriguing ambiguity when we blur their boundaries as both you and I noted. This point is more obvious when we look at "lazier" swing beats like NeoSoul. Instead of rushing a stroke ahead of the 3-multiples like traditional swing, NeoSoul often drags behind.

 

And even straight beats often rush and drag similar to shuffle and swing, that doesn't stop us from looking at them as 2-multiple beats for analytical reasons.

[AROIOS]

Otherwise, you end up with this:

 

 

Haha, Thanks for the share. I've never been a fan of Langlang and this is not the first time I've seen classically trained musicians make cringe-worthy attempts outside of their comfort zone.

[MathOfInsects]

Thanks for your advice. My example above is purely for analytical purposes. I'm fully aware of how the defining stokes in traditional shuffle and swing don't usually land squarely on the 3-multiples. However, that subtlety is incidental to our understanding of the fundamental importance of the 2s and 3s in music, and the intriguing ambiguity when we blur their boundaries as both you and I noted. This point is more obvious when we look at "lazier" swing beats like NeoSoul. Instead of rushing a stroke ahead of the 3-multiples like traditional swing, NeoSoul often drags behind.

 

And even straight beats often rush and drag similar to shuffle and swing, that doesn't stop us from looking at them as 2-multiple beats for analytical reasons.

 

My larger point is that these ruminations are not likely to really affect your *playing* in any way. It would be better to start with a real groove or beat, the way it's really played, and work up from there.