Do you ever.....

[phaeton]

...feel like a musical failure?

 

Do you ever look back on stuff you've written, and suddenly realise it just isn't as good as you once thought it was?

 

Do you ever become suddenly and painfully aware of the vast canyon of difference between yourself and your abilities, and every group in your music collection? (i'm not talking about crap radio, i'm talking about the music that matters to you).

 

Do you ever look back and feel that you were once more creative, more energetic, motivated or spontaneous than you are now? Or feel that you've withered as a musician, or not progressed at all?

 

Do you ever listen to songs and ask yourself "how in the HELL did he/she/they come up with that riff?"

 

Do you ever wonder if your favourite musicians struggle as hard at writing songs as you do?

 

Do you ever come up with some riff or lil piece of music, walk away, and when you've come back to it you've completely forgotten it?

 

Do you ever question whether or not you are *really* a musician, or if you're just kidding yourself?

 

Just curious.

[Lee Flier]

Ehhh... I dunno. I've only been playing for 37 years or so, it's way too soon to consider myself a failure.

[ricknbokkerv2.0]

Thoroughly. Always. Forever.

 

Think that's gonna stop me?

As if...

 

Ricky

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Hey Phaeton,

 

Isadora Duncan (I think it was) said that artists have an inherent tendency to be dissatisfied with their work. That they look for the flaws in what they've done.

 

For me, I've been dissatisfied to a degree with everything I've ever done up until the CD I've recently finished up. Worked harder on that than anything in my life. I'm satisfied with this one.

I think it's just putting in the hard work. All the subtle things that take hours to get right really pay off when you're listening back months later.

 

Another bright man named Tommy Edison says, "Opportunity is often missed because it's wearing overalls and it looks like work." Just get the work done.

[offramp]

All those things you said, Phaeton. Everyday.

It's relentless.

[Hendmik]

Ditto. hate everything I write and play. But wouldn't it suck if you thought everything you did was great?

 

You'd be Yngwie.

[Super 8]

Yes Phaeton, all the time.

 

But I don't let it stop me. I know in my heart that this is where my passion is. I also know that I will never reach my full potential as a musician. My gift way exceeds my abilities. If I only could play, and not have my time taken up by things like; my wife, my kids, the Internet, trips to the bathroom, etc....I could be so much better at music.

 

But music is only ONE facet of life.

Other things are important too.

 

Music is something I enjoy. And as long as it brings me joy, then it doesn't matter if I ever become a virtuoso, or a great song writer, or famous, rich, and influential. On the other hand, if I have all of those things, but don't have the joy, then those things cease to hold value.

 

The bottom line: Just play yer damn instrument and stop yer whine'n!

[Phait]

"Another bright man named Tommy Edison says, "Opportunity is often missed because it's wearing overalls and it looks like work." Just get the work done."

 

Too true. Once I realise the fun is actually work, I back down.

 

Here's a little story of failure and quitting. I started doing my own personal website in 1999. I thought it was a fun thing to do, then expanded into doing personal, expressive digital art. Then I started doing websites for myself about video games, musicians or movies I really liked. I learned alot design wise. Then eventually I taught myself HTML and had improved artistically, and decided to design websites for other people. I thought it was fun. I do still think its fun, but that is kind of slowly fading away. But I still have that touch, if I may say so. Sometimes I can't find it, sometimes it hits me. I had considered taking small business in college and starting a web design firm. The thing that kept me from completely deciding that? Fear of failure. "What if this thing never turns out? How would I get the money? Where would I setup shop?".

 

Somewhere under the surface, it is still an option though. But I gave up on that then, and my creative side was still testing the waters. Most of my life I enjoyed drawing, had potential to do nice work... sometimes did, but ever perfectionist. I was inspired last year by a concept artist to do similiar work - concept art for video games. So I bought about $100 in materials, sat down and tried out some concepts. Needless to say, my perfectionism caught up with me again, I got immensely frustrated and impatient that I couldn't draw "that body right" or "that face was off" or what-have-you. I even thought of attending school where that inspiration taught a course. But I gave up on myself. Defeated again.

 

For over 11 years I wanted to release my own CD. I'd already been playing guitar for over 9 years, so the music bug already bit me. Sometime around summer of last year I was inspired by Nine Inch Nails to expand my creative horizons, and looked into getting a keyboard. Everything would be at my fingertips, and I would do everything myself. I did months of research, joined this forum, asked questions. I bought my Fantom-S on suggestion from a dealer after trying it out. Got me a laptop and some other stuff.

 

I spent 6 months on a demo CD. 6 months of "that sucked, that was good! Oh now I don't like it". After throwing out several songs, I had about 10 demos done, I decided to stop, put them on a CD and move on to my project. I bullshitted myself - "today is the day I start work on the CD!". I realised how much work I really had to do, by spending those 6 months perfecting my demos, starting over. I knew there would be an inherent challenge, but I thought I would get through it easily and have a nice creative flow. Yeah right.

 

And here I am yet, still struggling - how do I want this CD to sound? I know my influences... what do I have to say, how am I going to translate that sonically, what will others think? I don't care what others think, this is for me. Oh but I do care, to an extent. Many false starts on "the song" or "a song"... Decided to spend more time away from the hell that was work and distract myself, played video games, watched movies, took time off from it all. Which can be a good thing to do. But I never decided to give up. However, it was as if I had. I would sometimes go back to the keyboard, try writing again. Completely dissatisfied again. This cycled over and over.

 

Inspiration knocks at my door again. I really liked this soundtrack to a game I was currently playing, so I looked up the composer, and began doing research into video game music, e-mailing other composers with questions. Joined a video game mod site so I can offer music for their mods. I found a potential career again. But first, I need to finish what I started, and focus on my dream of over a decade that has become a reality.

 

I also know other favorite musicians of mine struggle like this. If you don't have the least bit of struggle, I think something you're doing is insincere. The reality in any career, job or creative pursuit I have realised through all these years - it IS WORK!. And I always backed down from that. "It shouldn't be work, it should be fun!" Well too bad, that's the reality and I have come to accept it. I have the confidence I will pull through this and accomplish what I set out to do. I don't care if it's going to take em 6 months, a year or more. As long as I'm happy with it. I've given up on my self too many times already, and I have learned and promised myself not to now. I can only go forward, no matter how challenging. I'm tired of being defeated. Tired of being indecisive. If my career option doesn't work out - that that's that. I know I'll find something else. But in a strange way, I know I'll be somewhat content at least with a normal life too, as long as I can still have my fun (and have weekends off ).

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Nice post, Phait!

[phaeton]

Yeah phait, nice post...

 

for the record i've got about 100 tapes lying about with songs, bits of songs, ideas, goofing off, etc..

 

There was a time where ideas were just pouring off of me like water. I could sit down with the guitar or keyboard and come up with a killer riff or progression every hour. And i could remember them all, too.

 

Nowadays i come up with something, usually just a small bit, but not enough to do anything with by itself. I could set the guitar down and forget it in 5 minutes if i don't record it.

 

Sometimes i just feel like i'm no longer connected to my musical self. As if all the "magic" in my head and hands dissapeared when i got tendonitis 7 years ago.

 

I listen to those old tapes of mine, and they just sound like redundant rambling... not with any real point or purpose. It's like i was sooo into these things then, but now i wonder how i had my head up my ass and thought these were really something.

 

I mean, yeah... my whole schtick was writing instrumentals, and digging instrumental music, but one Jethro Tull or Pink Floyd song has more depth, creativity, and variety than any 5 of my songs do combined. And this is back in the good ole days when it was fun and easy.

 

I dunno... i just feel all washed up all the time.. sorry to rant on everyone, but I don't know what else to do.

[Joe Cole]

Wow, Phait, your honesty is cathadic.

 

I always find my musical creations below that of my favorite artists. But I think I have some good reasons.

 

#1, my favorite artists are not simple modern pop. If I was forced to make Britney Spears tunes, I am sure that I could get all the way past the mixing stage at the same level that her or similar music is at.

 

But if I would like to compare myself to NIN, Jellyfish, Steely Dan, Bill Evans or The The (and others) I would need true personal reflection for lyric writing and more harmonically complex chord changes and most of all $250k worth of timeless musical equipement like a nice grand piano, pre-cbs Fender Deluxe, a Bogner, serious outboard gear and some serious sound modules. Then I woild need a great recording partner to brainstorm with, like Keef to Mick, and Prince to....God?

 

#2- Music is not my bread winner. I work for a living, selling and training people on software. If I could spend limitless hours following my musical muse through the cobwebs of my mind, I am sure that the quality of my output would improve dramatically.

 

I suppose the safety of my limitations is that I will never have to lay there naked for the world to say, "That's the best you could do?"

 

As for my guitar playing, I can tastily outplay many I see on TV shows backing up the artist of the day, and most on radio too. While I will very be a wizard like Lukater, Holdsworth, Pass, or SRV, I have realized hrough the compliments of others that I do a fine job, even on a one take.

 

In the end, I just want to be able to make music. Whether at my guitar, or in my feeble little studio.

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by LanceMo:

Hey Phaeton,

 

Isadora Duncan (I think it was) said that artists have an inherent tendency to be dissatisfied with their work. That they look for the flaws in what they've done.

 

For me, I've been dissatisfied to a degree with everything I've ever done up until the CD I've recently finished up. Worked harder on that than anything in my life. I'm satisfied with this one.

I think it's just putting in the hard work. All the subtle things that take hours to get right really pay off when you're listening back months later.

 

Another bright man named Tommy Edison says, "Opportunity is often missed because it's wearing overalls and it looks like work." Just get the work done.

A musical failure?

HJELL NO ahahahaha!

lots of other failure areas to choose from OY

Folkes all over the werld are chokking oot me stoffs dere

As I've been able to improve the QUALITY of the mixes and masters, Down loads and stweams and chart movements are higher than ever and seem to steadily get progressively higher;(with accepted fluctuations in that rise, which are quite normal).

while I ain't really making any money at all from my music right now, I'll be ON THE RADIO AGAIN soon I'm sure as long as I keep pluggin' away and sending my stuff in and buggin' P.D>s and LOCAL radio and college stations and I know for a fact folkes from all over this watery globe have heard and insist that my jams are above the pale. YOU CAIN"T PAY FOLKEs to say that.

well, to be trootful in a dishonest way I will give you a dollar iffen you talk me dittys up; limit one dollar per customer since I thank I gotta buy a house for this one dude . or a cap.

So as far as music goes it's easy to make money at it iffen you ain't a'skeerd to practice up and go find a spot or three if thats what you mean?.

Been there done that so that was a goode un' oh yah!.. could I be MORE sucessful? heck yeah! it shore is a lot of werk though..

[phaeton]

Arell..

 

I'm not as interested in making money with music as i am in just making music that means something. If i could, i'd really only want to make enough money to live comfortably and allow me to play music and work on my other hobbies without interruption. I don't need any grand palaces to live in, or $200K cars.

 

For example, your stuff blows me away. It's good, it's solid, it has feeling and meaning. I want to be able to write songs and play ditties like Arellspencer. The stuff i come up with is barely an ant in your shadow.

 

Joe Cole sez:

I suppose the safety of my limitations is that I will never have to lay there naked for the world to say, "That's the best you could do?"

 

That's an excellent way to put that, and that's how i suddenly feel. Like i've been running around naked and impotent, and now i'm suddenly somehow aware of it.

 

The question i guess, is what to do about it.

[Lee Flier]

Don't you guys get the emails? There are all these pills you can take for that now.

[phaeton]

Don't you guys get the emails? There are all these pills you can take for that now.

 

Lee, i didn't say i wanted to be a rock star.. besides i'd just stuff tissue down my pa... oh wait.

[Wewus432]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Don't you guys get the emails? There are all these pills you can take for that now.

I was wondering where those things were coming from.

[Lee Flier]

Tell you what, why don't you guys all run around naked and I'll, umm, encourage you. It'll be good for your art.

[Joe Cole]

Originally posted by phaeton:

 

That's an excellent way to put that, and that's how i suddenly feel. Like i've been running around naked and impotent, and now i'm suddenly somehow aware of it.

 

The question i guess, is what to do about it.[/QB]

I have not heard your music, I have read your posts, not just this one. You are a witty person, and humble to a fault (from the response to Arell). I can tell you this...

 

If you channel your energy into your music your wit and humanity will elevate your music.

 

Sometimes we just need that extra push, that one little spark that will open the flood gates. A person such as yourself cannot help but make interesting music. Always keep a little surprise in every tune.

[DJDM]

I try not to think about my music in those terms. Writing music is something that I do. I have done it since I was in grade school. I have done it under a lot of different circumstances with various kinds of groups and set ups. Sometimes it turns out well and other times I listen to material that I thought was good and it's a toe scruncher for various reasons.

I do work very hard to make sure that my vision is as clear as I can make it. Musically and in recordings and live environments. That means that some of what I do is spend time working on things that are not always directly music related in an effort to make sure my music sounds as good as it can. For instance I spend a lot of time learning about recording technology, mixing and post production. I have left those things up to other people in the past and I am almost always disappointed.

Being a primarily electronic musician does give me an edge in this area.

 

I guess in the end I write music to please me and if it works for others then great! If it is marketable then fantastic but even if no one was listening I would keep doing this. I spent years writing for no one but me and I was still basically fulfilled in that process with only my closest friends and family hearing the work.

 

I like the stuff that I write and even if some of it is not as good as I thought at the time when I was done with it I still try to get something out of the work on subsequent listening. Be it a sense of nostalgia or a sense of forward development over the years. In the end, for better or for worse, my music is the soundtrack to my life and I don't want it to suck too much. But even if some of it does then that says something about that period of my life. By my way of thinking that means that nothing is really wasted.

[henryrobinett]

In short, no. I have yet to read the rest of the posts and look forward to reading Phaits. But I saw the one word in his post highlighted in black: WORK. I love music. It's a process of discovery, not a contest. Sure I always want to be better and I find myself often hitting below the mark I've set for myself. But this is only inspiration for me to work harder. I'm not trying to impress anyone else as much as I'm trying to impress myself.

 

When I look back at music I've written in the past I think it's representative of who I was then. Some times it's pretty good. Some times it's not. But we all need to stop listening to those little voices inside our heads that tell us "you suck". Those guys really do suck. Inner demons. Do what you have to do and get on with the business of making music. All the rest is just various shades of bullshit.

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by phaeton:

Arell..

 

I'm not as interested in making money with music as i am in just making music that means something. If i could, i'd really only want to make enough money to live comfortably and allow me to play music and work on my other hobbies without interruption. I don't need any grand palaces to live in, or $200K cars.

 

It's good, it's solid, it has feeling and meaning. I want to be able to write songs and play ditties like Arellspencer.

 

The question i guess, is what to do about it.

i AIN'T AT ALL SURE IFFEN YOU CATS ARE REALLY SERIOUS. it's getting surreal ahahaha!.

as far as making music that means something if it means something to you it means "something".

I ain't ever crafted a tune entirely for any thing OTHER than the tune it's self. it's a STORY set to music in a key I can croak and grunt and whine along with. .

yeah I write songs to order kinda just cause I have done so many, it seems easy or something but it's all a trick of the well... TRADE..

you study a style for a while and try to larn the tunes you are studyin NOTE FOR NOTE. every bend and drag and push and burn. NOTE PERFECT do this many,many time with lots of different styles and instruments, practicing relentlessly till you can do it upside down and backwards in your sleep.

then larn six or eight hours of tunes and go do 'em out for a few years.

and along the way you'll find tidbits that you'll steal and borrow and acquire this way and that and you'll have ROOTS.

The FAB FOUR sounded the way they did cause of WHO they copied and stole and borrowed from and paid homage to..

if you truely like my stuff phaeton and you ain't bull shirttin' me ahahaha you like the dittys because of the greatness and great songwriting skills OF THE FOLKES I LARNED BY.. THEIR greatness and abilities are what you dig.. I just be sharing it..

thanks for lettin' me share.

[Jokerelli]

I guess it's all relative to time. 10 years ago, I couldn't get my friends or family to listen to my stuff and now they all want CDs and hundreds of my songs have been downloaded from my webpage and it's had visitors approaching 10,000 since Feb.15th, I've been offered a distribution deal (yeah, I know big deal). And just yesterday, I was asked to score an independent movie. Go figure! 10 years ago I was a musical failure and today I'm a minor internet rock star. fucking lol!

 

Jokerelli Music

 

Charts: Only your strongest songs appear in the charts.

 

Currently in the daily charts:

 

main genres:

I Wonder:

· #9 in the Alternative charts

· #1 in the Brit Pop sub charts

 

Gothic 2-Step:

· #36 in the Classical charts

· #17 in the Film Music sub charts

 

WTC Tower 2 Instrumental:

· #192 in the Electronica charts

· #7 in the Euro sub charts

 

Seminole Lament:

· #813 in the Beats charts

· #20 in the Electronica sub charts

 

Remember When:

· #265 in the Rock charts

· #33 in the Guitar Rock sub charts

 

 

 

only in sub genres:

times of our life:

· #45 in the Alternative : Alternative General sub charts

 

Surrender (wild at heart):

· #22 in the Rock : Goth Rock sub charts

[dementia13]

I think I feel all those things. Objectively, I should be a lot farther along musically than I am. My knowledge has outpaced my skill, and sometimes that fools me into not working hard enough to improve my skill. Non-objectively, I think I just get down on myself. About 15 years ago, someone came out with a psychology book that talked about people who constantly struggle with a feeling of failure, or of being a fraud. A specific example given was Richard Burton, and that one reason he was such a raging alcoholic was because he was acclaimed to be such a great actor, yet was constantly terrified that he would be discovered to be a fraud. As so often happens, a lot of people were quick to accuse that book of being a lot of baloney. But when I heard about it, it really struck a chord with me. I knew exactly what that was talking about, and knew that it was very real. That's also probably a major reason I haven't made much effort to find a band or play gigs over the last several years. I'd rather suspect that I suck, than have it proven publicly.

[Raymar]

Do you ever look back on stuff you've written, and suddenly realise it just isn't as good as you once thought it was?

 

More than I care to admit. But then I've erased more tunes than I've kept. Out of those I kept some have a longer shelf life than the others. I think it just shows growth.

 

Do you ever become suddenly and painfully aware of the vast canyon of difference between yourself and your abilities, and every group in your music collection? (i'm not talking about crap radio, i'm talking about the music that matters to you).

 

Definitely, especially if they have stellar careers and are raking in the cash, and going down in history yet, but you need those artists to inspire you.

 

Do you ever look back and feel that you were once more creative, more energetic, motivated or spontaneous than you are now? Or feel that you've withered as a musician, or not progressed at all?

 

This last year has been a little dry, but alot of artists have short gaps between CDs. I've had 'em before, much longer ones back in the pre-midi days. 9/11 has made me more political so I read more of that stuff and listen to talk radio, it like I had some serious catching up to do so the music was put on the back burner.

 

Do you ever listen to songs and ask yourself "how in the HELL did he/she/they come up with that riff?"

 

Riffs aren't important to me anymore.

 

Do you ever wonder if your favourite musicians struggle as hard at writing songs as you do?

 

I know they're much more ambitious than me, and more intelligent too(ouch!). I'd croak trying to do what they've done.

 

Do you ever come up with some riff or lil piece of music, walk away, and when you've come back to it you've completely forgotten it?

 

Yeah, but so what. Sometimes they reappear out of the blue, but riffs don't matter to me at all.

 

Do you ever question whether or not you are *really* a musician, or if you're just kidding yourself?

 

I'm not a virtuoso, don't have the temperance but I can play some virtuoso stuff. The music I'm into now doesn't require it, but I'd like to learn more classical and jazz stuff just to have it under my belt as well as the enjoyment of it. That's the cool thing about music, there's no end to what you can listen to, write or play, so you can just plug away until the end and keep going.

 

Steve

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by Jokerelli:

I guess it's all relative to time. 10 years ago, I couldn't get my friends or family to listen to my stuff and now they all want CDs and hundreds of my songs have been downloaded from my webpage and it's had visitors approaching 10,000 since Feb.15th, I've been offered a distribution deal (yeah, I know big deal). And just yesterday, I was asked to score an independent movie. Go figure! 10 years ago I was a musical failure and today I'm a minor internet rock star. fucking lol!

 

Jokerelli Music

 

Charts: Only your strongest songs appear in the charts.

 

Currently in the daily charts:

 

main genres:

I Wonder:

· #9 in the Alternative charts

· #1 in the Brit Pop sub charts

 

Gothic 2-Step:

· #36 in the Classical charts

· #17 in the Film Music sub charts

 

WTC Tower 2 Instrumental:

· #192 in the Electronica charts

· #7 in the Euro sub charts

 

Seminole Lament:

· #813 in the Beats charts

· #20 in the Electronica sub charts

 

Remember When:

· #265 in the Rock charts

· #33 in the Guitar Rock sub charts

 

 

 

only in sub genres:

times of our life:

· #45 in the Alternative : Alternative General sub charts

 

Surrender (wild at heart):

· #22 in the Rock : Goth Rock sub charts

Way to do it dude!

[Jokerelli]

Originally posted by arellspencer:

Way to do it dude!

[/QB]

 

Thanks! I'm laughing all the way to the poorhouse.

[ricknbokkerv2.0]

Without a doubt.... one of the best threads I've ever had the pleasure to come across on these fine forums.

 

Phaeton... don't sweat it. Everything you're feeling... I've been there myself. Hell... I live there.

Why do I keep going?

 

Because... things happen. Babies I will cherish are born. People I love, die. I see pain and joy and everything in between. And when I get a rare moment, or I need to feel what is real and what isn't.... I go out into the yard and look at the stars.

 

I am but a small speck... a nanospeck (?) of this universe. This... existance. Think about it.

 

In all that's gone on in this place, this universe, and will go on.... just how important is my little contribution to "music"? In the grand scheme of things...

 

I want to make music. I want to make music that makes me smile... cry.... laugh... and in the end, keeps me sane.

I tend to hit the mark most of the time. Why?

Because I do it for me... no one else. And in the end, it doesn't really matter anyway... except to me.

 

Rejoice in what you have, brother.... share it if you like. I dare not judge you in that regard.

In the end, we are our own judges, as you seem to be finding out.

Just... don't judge too harshly.

 

Life, understanding, family, love.... this is what's important. Bless us all, and the beautiful noise we all make.

 

Ricky

[Bill Heins]

Do I ever feel like a musical failure- Yup! Everyday of my life...makes me work all that harder

 

Darkon the Incandescent