Does Hip Hop send a bad message?

[Super 8]

Originally posted by guittarzzan:

Well, I would define "musical" as something with melody. A person of any color just talking or yelling with no melody would fall into the "non musical" category imo.

Then by your definition, Hip Hop isn't music. But your definition of what makes music is pretty narrow. If you take any time at all to study different kinds of music from around the world, you will find that much of it doesn't satisfy your definition.

[KenElevenShadows]

Lawrence's explanation of "nigga"/"nigger" is what I have witnessed when working with black people and students. Just the same, growing up primarily in the suburbs and generally out of that culture, I feel so uneasy about those words that I avoid both at all costs. Thanks for the explanation, Lawrence.

[henryrobinett]

God, please give me the strength to stay away from this thread . . .

[antimatter]

I'd really like to stay lurking, and probably should.

 

Lawrence,

I can't believe that adding 'er' is going to change a word to a racist word. Either it is; or it isn't. What if I have a speech impediment, and it just 'sounds' the wrong way? Whatever. I respect your effort to educate, but I still don't get it. The word is just another curse word to me. If I call a friend an asshole, and he's cool with it, it's still a bad word. No?

 

And as far as blaring car stereo music, it's all about respect. Hey, I like 'cranking it' too. But when at a stop sign, red light, stuck in traffic, etc., I lower it. It's courtesy. My parents taught me that. And whether it's rap, rock, or opera, people should respect others. The only thing I can do is pass the ideas on to my kids, friends, family, coworkers, and fellow forumites! Turn it down, and respect that not everyone likes what you do.

 

And the voice is the ultimate instrument. Rapping is an art form, a talent, gift? that will be expanded on for many years. I look forward to the positive musical contributions ahead of us.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by antimatter:

I'd really like to stay lurking, and probably should.

 

Lawrence,

I can't believe that adding 'er' is going to change a word to a racist word. Either it is; or it isn't. What if I have a speech impediment, and it just 'sounds' the wrong way? Whatever. I respect your effort to educate, but I still don't get it. The word is just another curse word to me. If I call a friend an asshole, and he's cool with it, it's still a bad word. No?

No. "Asshole" can in no way be compared to "nigger". No possible comparison. It is more than a curse word. Trust me on this one.

 

God? Give me some more strength now, OK?

[kylen]

God, please give me the strength to stay away from this thread . . .

hehe, Henry - don't you sometimes wish you could roll a barrage of rhyming topical synco triplets off the tip of your tongue as easily as they fly out the tips of your hip fingers !

 

Maybe not at 105dB SPL but keeping in the spirit of the thing I guess Ella could do that pretty good herself...I guess she was scatting though - yummy ! That seemed to be a pretty positive message or vibe I guess...

[fluxONE]

Originally posted by shniggens:

Originally posted by fluxONE:

To understand the violence in Hip Hop music you have to understand where it came from. Hip Hop originated in poverty stricken communities, invented by the youth as a way to deal with and eventually get out of the ghetto or projects or whatever you want to call it. This is very similar to the origination of blues(black slaves singing about the troubles of daily life).

.

I call bullshit on this one. The genre has set a precedent for itself. I see little teenage kids in my middle class neighborhood standing outside of 7-11 performing their "pseudo rap" in the same style of 50 cent. Robbing, smacking bitches, and loading the gat are the usual theme.

Read the rest of my post before you try to discredit my opinions. The white suburban kids, who dont have to struggle with anything except for decidng what they want to buy with mommies money, imitating the people who struggle with violence and drugs on a daily basis is a sad sad thing. And you cannot blame the hip hop community, or the people who speak about there experiences, for these people who want to be something they are absolutely not. If you are so easily influenced by what you hear in a song then i feel very very sorry for you. You obvioulsy have mental stability and social indentity problems.

 

And on top of all that your post didnt make any sense. What the fuck does little kids imitating people have to do with the fact that hip hop originated in violent areas of the country?Nothing.

[LawrenceF]

Originally posted by antimatter:

Lawrence,

I can't believe that adding 'er' is going to change a word to a racist word. Either it is; or it isn't. What if I have a speech impediment, and it just 'sounds' the wrong way? Whatever. I respect your effort to educate, but I still don't get it. The word is just another curse word to me. If I call a friend an asshole, and he's cool with it, it's still a bad word. No?

Consider this. If a certain race of people were controlled by violence and called "asshole" every day for hundreds of years while their children were raped and sold out from under them, they would begin to call themselves a variation of the word "asshole". Humans, ANY humans, relegated to torture and abuse are "trainable". Ask prisoners of war. Inevitably their variation would be different. Asole? "Where's John?" "Dunno, I aint seen that asole?

 

This becomes more than a curse word. It becomes a word that the controller uses to describe the controlled for many, many years. It means "don't fucking even look directly at me, you aint worthy". Spoken openly in front of their small children, whom by the way, are taken to watch "assholes" killed for sport and spoken at "civilized" gatherings and congressional meetings. If you don't get that then... oh well.

 

It's much, much deeper than simply a curse word. Personally when I hear a caucasion use the word "nigger" it evokes powerful emotions and images of "strange fruit". I won't explain what that means. If you never heard that term you probably need to revisit "American" history.

 

Lawrence

[_Sweet Willie_]

I thought I'd just share the words of others. "Poetical", political, lyrical, musical.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

Never badder than bad 'cause the brother is madder than mad

At the fact that's corrupt as a senator

Soul on a roll, but you treat it like soap on a rope

'Cause the beats in the lines are so dope

Listen for lessons I'm saying inside music that the critics are blasting me for

They'll never care for the brothers and sisters now across the country has us up for the war

 

We got to demonstrate, come on now, they're gonna have to wait

Till we get it right

Radio Stations I question their blackness

They call themselves black, but we'll see if they play this

--PE

 

The deadly ritual seems immersed, in the perverse

Full of short attention spans, short tempers, and short skirts

Long barrel automatics released in short bursts

The length of black life is treated with short worth

Get yours first, them other niggaz secondary

That type of illin that be fillin up the cemetary

This life is temporary but the soul is eternal

Separate the real from the lie, let me learn you

Not strong, only aggressive, cause the power ain't directed

That's why, we are subjected to the will of the oppressive

Not free, we only licensed

Not live, we just excitin

Cause the captors.. own the masters.. to what we writin

--Mos Def & Talib Kweli

 

We at the top we never drop cause true hip-hop is so hot

Some people thuggin, some be pimpin, I be teachin a lot

I be teachin about the meaning of a deeper hip-hop

That don't make me any better than a thief or a cop

All I know is when I flow, the people be shocked

You don't really want the teacher to come step on your block

With my whole glock takin everything that you've got

I'm a different type of deeper intellectual rock

For when you really wanna compete and get up off your block

You are not just doin hip-hop, you ARE hip-hop

Like if you have a badge and a gun, you ARE the cop

Like if you practice medicine, you ARE the doc

You just forgot rappers rap about cars a lot

And the magazines worry about stars a lot

But I'm the sun and they avoid me BECAUSE I'm hot

The orthodox hip-hop is sure to rock

With or without a video, I'm leavin 'em all in shock, OHH!

--KRS-One

 

If you dont gotta gun...its alright

If yah makin legal money...its alright

If you gotta keep yah clothes on...its alright

You aint gotta cellular phone...its alright

And yah wheels dont spin...its alright)

And you gotta wear them jeans again...its alright

Yeah if you tried oh well...its alright

MC's stop the beef lets sell...its alright

--Missy Elliot

 

I been here since the beginning

Beginning of time yo beginning of time

Deep in the mind of the ancient ones

Everybody love me like they do the sun

I shine at times yo at times I'm dark

You can't categorize me, my mind's a art

Inside my heart, it ain't about climbing charts

I'm the one you roll with when your ride is smart

The change that came, the change that comes

I change with chords and I kick it with drums

Get blow with horns and did it on the one

Riffed for guitars, for the Lord I sung

Spun around the world at parties and weddings

Wherever I go I create the setting

You know me from lessons or your pops collections

Whether whole or half stepping I'm a blessing

Yo I am music

--Common

[antimatter]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Originally posted by antimatter:

I'd really like to stay lurking, and probably should.

 

Lawrence,

I can't believe that adding 'er' is going to change a word to a racist word. Either it is; or it isn't. What if I have a speech impediment, and it just 'sounds' the wrong way? Whatever. I respect your effort to educate, but I still don't get it. The word is just another curse word to me. If I call a friend an asshole, and he's cool with it, it's still a bad word. No?

No. "Asshole" can in no way be compared to "nigger". No possible comparison. It is more than a curse word. Trust me on this one.

 

God? Give me some more strength now, OK?

My only comparison was that would I use neither word to a friend.

I'd like to see the word nigger/nigga disappear completely. I don't understand 'proper' usage. The word is used too much for hate. An evil seeded ugly kind of hate.

 

No offense intended.

 

edit: It's all in the proofreading. I do not see it as "just another curse word".

[the.circular.motion.rub.it]

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

I thought I'd just share the words of others. "Poetical", political, lyrical, musical.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

Never badder than bad 'cause the brother is madder than mad

At the fact that's corrupt as a senator

Soul on a roll, but you treat it like soap on a rope

'Cause the beats in the lines are so dope

Listen for lessons I'm saying inside music that the critics are blasting me for

They'll never care for the brothers and sisters now across the country has us up for the war

 

We got to demonstrate, come on now, they're gonna have to wait

Till we get it right

Radio Stations I question their blackness

They call themselves black, but we'll see if they play this

--PE

 

The deadly ritual seems immersed, in the perverse

Full of short attention spans, short tempers, and short skirts

Long barrel automatics released in short bursts

The length of black life is treated with short worth

Get yours first, them other niggaz secondary

That type of illin that be fillin up the cemetary

This life is temporary but the soul is eternal

Separate the real from the lie, let me learn you

Not strong, only aggressive, cause the power ain't directed

That's why, we are subjected to the will of the oppressive

Not free, we only licensed

Not live, we just excitin

Cause the captors.. own the masters.. to what we writin

--Mos Def & Talib Kweli

 

We at the top we never drop cause true hip-hop is so hot

Some people thuggin, some be pimpin, I be teachin a lot

I be teachin about the meaning of a deeper hip-hop

That don't make me any better than a thief or a cop

All I know is when I flow, the people be shocked

You don't really want the teacher to come step on your block

With my whole glock takin everything that you've got

I'm a different type of deeper intellectual rock

For when you really wanna compete and get up off your block

You are not just doin hip-hop, you ARE hip-hop

Like if you have a badge and a gun, you ARE the cop

Like if you practice medicine, you ARE the doc

You just forgot rappers rap about cars a lot

And the magazines worry about stars a lot

But I'm the sun and they avoid me BECAUSE I'm hot

The orthodox hip-hop is sure to rock

With or without a video, I'm leavin 'em all in shock, OHH!

--KRS-One

 

If you dont gotta gun...its alright

If yah makin legal money...its alright

If you gotta keep yah clothes on...its alright

You aint gotta cellular phone...its alright

And yah wheels dont spin...its alright)

And you gotta wear them jeans again...its alright

Yeah if you tried oh well...its alright

MC's stop the beef lets sell...its alright

--Missy Elliot

 

I been here since the beginning

Beginning of time yo beginning of time

Deep in the mind of the ancient ones

Everybody love me like they do the sun

I shine at times yo at times I'm dark

You can't categorize me, my mind's a art

Inside my heart, it ain't about climbing charts

I'm the one you roll with when your ride is smart

The change that came, the change that comes

I change with chords and I kick it with drums

Get blow with horns and did it on the one

Riffed for guitars, for the Lord I sung

Spun around the world at parties and weddings

Wherever I go I create the setting

You know me from lessons or your pops collections

Whether whole or half stepping I'm a blessing

Yo I am music

--Common

you can always count on S-Dub to be droppin science

 

"1 2 3... its mos def and talib kweli..."

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by antimatter:

I can't believe that adding 'er' is going to change a word to a racist word. Either it is; or it isn't. What if I have a speech impediment, and it just 'sounds' the wrong way? Whatever. I respect your effort to educate, but I still don't get it. The word is just another curse word to me. If I call a friend an asshole, and he's cool with it, it's still a bad word. No?

I think a lot of it is also in the context it's used.

 

As I said, I am so unbelievably uneasy with that word (I'm discussing the one word with the "er" ending now)...it sounds so incredibly ugly to me. I've never ever used that word except in discussions about the word because it's so ugly sounding to me.

 

But I've seen the day to day usage of it on a regular basis, and so far, it's been exactly as Lawrence described it. You may not like its usage. I'm not sure that I like it in any context, but I also feel that it's maybe not mine to judge too much since it's pretty far outside my culture.

 

I've also seen it used by white people to put down black people when I was living in Illinois, and there's few things that make someone look as stupid and mean-spirited as seeing people screaming that at someone, staring them down, across a street. In that context, it's so incredibly incomprehensibly vulgar.

 

And no, that word to me is not just another curse word. It's historically such an ugly, loaded word, so full of meaning. And I think that's what people in this thread are responding to ultimately.

 

I understand the use of "nigga", its usage, but...that other word...yeow.

 

And yes, I understand that Southern trees bear a "strange fruit".

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Hey Lawrence, I like your style. You're interested in the truth.

 

Thanks for the explanation about the neighborhood use of that word. Makes a lot of sense to me.

 

As to the original question, it's important to define what you mean by "bad message" Schniggins. Bad for who? Does art even send a message?

 

Some of us have discussed this before and it appears I have a unique take. To me, you bring yourself to the artistic experience. We respond to a work of art with either a thumbs up or a thumbs down. But it's who I am as a human being that will determine my reaction. The work of art has no magic power over me even though the experience can "feel" magical. The reason is that it's primarily an emotional response. It seems detached from our conscious mind. But our conscious mind has already done the hard work. The hard work that went into building our character (or avoiding that work).

 

Some people really really like certain hip hop selections. Some people are luke warm to hip hop just as they may have been luke warm to REO Speedwagon. That is, it's playing in the background but, so what? "Change it, or not, it doesn't matter that much."

 

For someone who really really gets off on a song about killing cops, yeah that says something about their character/worldview. But they aren't necessarily criminals. It's the guy who actually kills the cop that's the criminal.

[KenElevenShadows]

LanceMo, you definitely make a good point about the sort of feeling and message and reaction that people have coming away from a particular song or work of art. I think it's a difficult thing to bear in mind - it's important to step out of one's skin and realize that things could be perceived differently by others, and that perception is not necessarily more right or wrong than another.

[fluxONE]

Originally posted by guittarzzan:

Well, I would define "musical" as something with melody. A person of any color just talking or yelling with no melody would fall into the "non musical" category imo. All the rhyming and phrasing is surely an art form of linguistic and slang manipulation, but without a melody, it's just poetry, and I use that term loosely; with music in the background. If a guy reads a newspaper out loud with a drum and bass loop in the background, is that a song? Is he doing anything musical? No.

I just wish they hadn't forgot the "c" when they named it rap. I tip my hat to all the producers, engineers and musician's who make rappers "songs" sound as good as they do. There's a lot of talented people squeezing wine from a turd. No offense

Sorry buddy but music is MUCH more than melody. You ever heard of Rhythm? musical patterns? the pulse? the beat? it is not the melody that makes people dance. what about the west african dummers who dont play any melodies, is that not music? personaly i feel that the best part of music is the break down, when NO instruments are playing and no melodies are being heard, that is the most original part of the song. If your in a jazz club listening to jazz and the sax starts soloing, nobody cares. If your in the same club and the drummer starts soloing, everybody stops, turns, watches and is amazed. Music is much much more than melody.

[Super 8]

Actually, there really is a lot of melody in the Raps. It's all in the phrasing and the tone of voice -much like any song. The first person who comes to mind is Snoop Dogg. When you listen to him, I mean, his voice is all over the place.

True, it doesn't follow the 12 tone scale that we are used to hearing, but that's not unusual in music. Go over to India, and you'll hear all kinds of microtonal stuff.

If you listen to a Rap, and you attempt to cover it, you are going to use the same vocal phrasings, and tones that were on the original.

 

So yeah, I would say Rap has a melody.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by LawrenceF:

Directly to your question... if you grow up in the black inner city the word "nigga" is a commonly used word. In effect it means "dude" or "man" or "guy" in a way. There's nothing inherently menacing or racist about it. "Hey, where's John?" "Dunno. I 'aint seen that nigga."

Lawrence,

Thanks for the well thought out reply. But here is the problem I am faced with:

The post I was responding to had hmurchison saying....and I quote:

 

Note that Rappers can say N***A all they want but if they dare say anything about Jews or Asians then there's an outcry.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, HMurchison is saying that this is a bad word....bad enough that there ought to be an outcry over it.

 

So I think I'm getting a conflicting message.

 

I'm NOT trying to start any trouble here, I only want to understand.

 

I want to make that as clear as possible, due to other things I've said in the past that were misunderstood and caused a huge mess.

I come in peace...

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by Super 8:

[

I want to make that as clear as possible, due to other things I've said in the past that were misunderstood and caused a huge mess.

I come in peace...

LOL! OK Super -- Group hug!!

 

Listen I don't use any form of that word. I personally find it repugnant regardless who uses it. I's just as soon say "Ne-gro!" which is a funny, ridiculous term that conveys the same meaning as it would were I to say "my nigga!" Even in type I find it repugnant.

 

And no I don't subscribe to the outcry vibe re jew or asian. I think any term of derision or slang; an offensive term directed at another race or culture is equally regugnant and reprehensible. One can't have it both ways. If you don't want someone to call you nigger then you can't call someone else jewboy or kike. The world just don't work that way without someone getting hurt.

[CP]

Super 8, I normally don't agree with you, but you are right. There is a conflicting message being sent. The use of that word should never be accepted in the Black community. However, to go into the reasons why the word is used so often would take a long time to discuss, and I'm not sure an answer could found. However, I believe that a lot of it has to do with self-hatred.

 

Lets think about this. No other race refers to themselves in a derogatory way, either verbally, or in print. A lot of this has to do with the history of Black people here in America, and the effects of slavery. Slavery has never been properly dealt with. Every time slavery is brought up, people want to brush it under a rug and say "I had nothing to do with it" or "That was a long time ago". However, there have been some devastating effects. Some of which you see played out in the Rap genre of music.

 

I protest this whole topic about Rap sending a bad message. However, there have been some excellent responses. Especially Lee Flier and LawrenceF's second response.

 

Peace

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, I grew up in L.A. and a lot of the guys at my school (this was in the 70's, pre-rap) used "nigga" with impunity. I'm positive my black friends wouldn't have cared if I'd used it back - quite a few white kids did, and like Lawrence says, to them it was pretty much like saying "dude" or whatever. But I never did! I didn't freak out when the black kids used it or anything - a lot of times they used in a humorous way and it WAS funny. But I never would have said it back to them, I just feel way too uncomfortable with a white person (even a Red Sea Pedestrian such as myself ) using that word to address a black person.

 

And of course I agree that it's not acceptable to call people ANY racist or misogynist slurs just because you're black or are doing it on a hip hop record. That shit really bothers me.

[shniggens]

Originally posted by fluxONE:

And on top of all that your post didnt make any sense. What the fuck does little kids imitating people have to do with the fact that hip hop originated in violent areas of the country?Nothing.

It's not just little white kids. Rap has set a precedent for itself. Take this for example -

 

"No hip-hop luminary has worked harder than Sean "P. Diddy" Combs, the wildly successful rapper, producer, fashion mogul, and CEO of Bad Boy Records, to cultivate a gangsta image - so much so that he's blurred the line between playing the bad boy and really being one. Combs may have grown up middle-class in Mount Vernon, New York, and even have attended Howard University for a while, but he's proven he can gang-bang with the worst. Cops charged Combs with possession of a deadly weapon in 1995. In 1999, he faced charges for assaulting a rival record executive. Most notoriously, police charged him that year with firing a gun at a nightclub in response to an insult, injuring three bystanders, and with fleeing the scene with his entourage (including then-pal Jennifer "J. Lo" Lopez). Combs got off, but his young rapper protege Jamal "Shyne" Barrow went to prison for firing the gun."

 

For a lot of rappers, I believe they feel they need to fit the image to be successful.

[Thomas Wilburn]

Originally posted by shniggens:

 

"No hip-hop luminary has worked harder than Sean "P. Diddy" Combs, the wildly successful rapper, producer, fashion mogul, and CEO of Bad Boy Records, to cultivate a gangsta image - so much so that he's blurred the line between playing the bad boy and really being one. Combs may have grown up middle-class in Mount Vernon, New York, and even have attended Howard University for a while, but he's proven he can gang-bang with the worst. Cops charged Combs with possession of a deadly weapon in 1995. In 1999, he faced charges for assaulting a rival record executive. Most notoriously, police charged him that year with firing a gun at a nightclub in response to an insult, injuring three bystanders, and with fleeing the scene with his entourage (including then-pal Jennifer "J. Lo" Lopez). Combs got off, but his young rapper protege Jamal "Shyne" Barrow went to prison for firing the gun."

Now, I'm not terribly fluent in hip-hop, but is it really fair to label the genre using P. Diddy? He's never struck me as the sharpest knife in the drawer, despite all his success.

 

Rock went through a period when it was about getting stoned and rebelling. Now it has been subverted by larger corporate interests. The same thing has happened/is happening, I think, to hip-hop. The corporations are just getting better at it.

[Franknputer]

I also believe that slurs shouldn't be used, even by those who would slur themselves. The whole "a/er" thing is an interesting explanation, but a poor justification IMO.

 

Personally, I've wished on several occasions that I could cut out the part of my brain that has that word implanted in it. But unfortunately, that's not possible. So, we must do what we can: I feel that we each have a responsibility to outgrow the effects of slavery & oppression. To each, in our own way, remove the burdens that we pass on to the next generation & teach them to do the same, so that eventually the burden will exist only in the history books.

 

A grand aim, to be sure - possibly unobtainable. But certainly, if we do not strive for this then we will never get there.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

God, please give me the strength to stay away from this thread . . .

Amen!

[Nawledge]

Originally posted by shniggens:

Oh well, take a vote.

Until you ask the same of every other genre of music your poll doesn't even matter.

 

you shouldn't listen to what you cannot interpret

and you shouldn't interpret what you don't listen to.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by Nawledge:

Originally posted by shniggens:

Oh well, take a vote.

Until you ask the same of every other genre of music your poll doesn't even matter.

 

you shouldn't listen to what you cannot interpret

and you shouldn't interpret what you don't listen to.

Yeah baby! Well, well said.

[shniggens]

Originally posted by Nawledge:

you shouldn't listen to what you cannot interpret

and you shouldn't interpret what you don't listen to.

Wow, sounds all cryptic and shit. Almost like Yoda said it or something.

 

Now tell me, what is hard to interpret from the aformentioned 50 Cent lyrics? I don't see much open for interpretation.

[Lee Flier]

Nawledge RuLeZ.

[Nawledge]

it's just clear to me where you're coming from that's all.

why do you keep bringing up 50cent?, how many other gangster rappers do you know/ can come up with?, maybe snoopdog...etc. I bet you can't name

10. thats because they're the minority of the artform you're slinging mud at. most of the hiphop out there would probably sound cryptic to you. maybe you wouldn't know the diference between 50cent/lyrics and the artist/lyrics that sweet willie posted for your consumption.

 

Hiphop doesn't owe you anything.

it doesn't have to be less materialistic than graceland.

it doesn't have to be less about mysogyny and drugs than 'sex drugs and rock and roll'. what do

you think that rappers are suppose to be better than everybody else or something. of course not.

 

you can search this forum for discussions like this, they repeat themselves, full of gross generalizations like you warned yours was, full of people mad that they can't rap like dark lava, full of people trying to define it as other than music, on and on and in one way i don't mind cause any issue that 'is' still and issue should continue but for once I'd like to enter into one of these discussions with someone who has a leg to stand on, you know that the first person who rebuked your argument was your self and in that regard we agree. it was a gross generalization.

[kylen]

Hey - that was cool Nawledge, both posts - I guess we were waitin for you to weigh in - and nice dicsussion in this thread too shniggens - I learned something...now can you all turn it down so I can hear my new Loretta Lynn CD