Why does NO one make the products I NEED??

[Valkyrie Sound]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

 

Dammnmit.... no wonder all these equipment makers are having such a tough time these days. NONE of them are making anything I can USE!.... and I HAVE MONEY AND WANT TO SPEND IT!

 

My odyssey started this week when I started a search to replace my old stand alone CDR from Tascam. I thought.... I'll just buy one of these great Tascam CDR2000s. Cool... everything I need... balanced I/O and a AES input. Try to get one.... it's been discontinued!

OK... so what else is available? Hmmm... the HHB units which I've had plenty of bad experience with... 6 have failed in the last 6 months. I'm not going to use a cheap AES/SPDIF converter... I CAN hear the difference. OK... so what does Tascam see as a replacement product? The CDR 402 which has balanced I/O but NO AES INPUT! Huh? Tascam doesn't even make a single unit with a professional digital input? Huh? But I HAVE the money... I'll pay a little more... please? No....

 

OK... other options....

 

I can get an Alesis Masterlink that does have a AES input and does 96k. Nice.... but I need to be able to hand clients reference CDs of their performance right after the concert is done. OK.... 2 hours of music... 2 cds.... Alesis only has a 4x burner in the Masterlink so it will take at LEAST 25 min per disc AND I have to do 2.... so.... my client should wait 45 min after the concert for a reference CD???? Not going to work......

 

OK.... maybe I can get a small digital mixer for my remote rig with a SPDIF output to match these crap new CD recorders.

Maybe a Yamaha O1X... more flexibility.... I think... Oh.... wait.... I can't even find out what kind of I/O is included on their website or how it really works in stand alone mixer mode. Oh yeah... and this would be a $1500 solution to ONE MISSING AES INPUT ON A CDR RECORDER!

 

OK.... moving on... maybe someone makes a nice little digital line mixer....

The Presonus Firestation is "SUPPOSED" to be a ADAT line mixer.... that could work for me. OK.... but when you use it in mixer mode inputs 1 &2 are tied together on one PAN and 3 & 4 are also tied together on one pan... oh... and did I mention there was NO PAN on the other channels?

A mixer with no way to PAN individual channels? huh? Did I miss something here?? I'm doing stereo recording here... this setup doesn't work!!

 

OK.... still looking.... how about one of those Roland digital line mixers....

Hmmm... inputs 1 & 2 are a least assigned automatically Left and Right. Better.... but what happens when you want something to be panned CENTER? Nope.... can't do that... sorry.....

 

OK.... last chance... maybe a medium sized digital mixer.... an O1V 96?

Lots of routing... nice... 96K... also nice.

Oh wait... now I'm lugging around an extra 25lbs AND I just spent $2500 on a SOLUTION TO ONE MISSING AES INPUT ON A CD RECORDER!

 

Yeah... OK.... does this make sense to anyone else? It seems like I'm constantly buying products to solve the shortcomings of other products. It's usually just ONE missing key feature....

Ya know what my solution is to this problem? I'm going to continue to use my old CD burner and I'm NOT BUYING ANYTHING NEW. Is that healthy for the industry?

 

Ms. Valky

Pissed off...

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Doesn't Yamaha still make the CDR1000?

 

Playback format: CD

 

Recording formats: CD-R, CD-RW (Audio and Data discs)

 

Quantization: 16-bit linear

 

Sampling Frequency: 44.1kHz

 

Frequency Response: 20 Hz - 20kHz (+1/-3dB)

 

Fs Converter: 30kHz - 50kHz (automatically converted to 44.1kHz)

 

Dimensions (WxHxD): 480 x 101 x 389mm (18 3/5" x 4" x 15 1/3")

 

Weight: 8kg (17lbs., 9oz)

 

Power Consumption: 33W

 

Analog Input

 

Connector: XLR 3-31 Type

 

Input Impedance: 20k

 

Nominal Input Level: +4dB/-10dBV (selectable)

 

Maximum Input Level: +18dB/+4dBV (Rec Level at Nominal)

 

Analog Output

 

Connector: XLR 3-32 Type

 

Output Impedance: 150

 

Nominal Output Level: +4dB

 

Maximum Output Level: +18dB

 

Head Phone Output

 

Connector: 1/4-inch Stereo Jack

 

Load Impedance: 40

 

Maximum Output Level: 100mW + 100mW

 

AES/EBU Input

 

Connector: XLR 3-31 Type

 

Input Impedance: 110

 

AES/EBU Output

 

Connector: XLR 3-32 Type

 

Output Impedance: 110

 

Coaxial Input (IEC60958)

 

Connector: Phono

 

Input Impedance: 75

 

Coaxial Output (IEC60958)

 

Connector: Phono

 

Output Impedance: 75

 

Control I/O

 

Connector: D-Sub 9pin

 

Foot Switch Input: 1/4-inch Monaural Jack

 

- Jeff

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

I think the Sony CDRW66 might solve your problem as well.

 

By the way: did you actually talk to TASCAM and make sure they don't still have stock on CD-RW2000s? Let me know if you want me to make a call for ya.

 

- Jeff

[Mats Olsson.]

Have you thought of using a AES/EBU <-> S/Pdif converter and a Marantz CDR510 ?

[theblue1]

Get a horse.

 

 

Seriously, good luck on your quest. I gave up on standalone gear a while ago. I had a twin ADAT rig, a big mixer, and a bunch of boxes (and, actually I still have all that stuff but the ADATs are down in the garage somewhere and the multi-FX boxes are mostly gathering dust. The 24 channel mixer is still used some (I have a MOTU 828mkII interface with built-in DSP mixing but the very tiny latency bugs me for some uses so I like to monitor through my analog board). But, by and large, I find my home-built computer is the nexus of all my audio activities. It started just as a MIDI-sync adjunct to the ADATs but slowly but surely it took over. Next it was direct-to-HD recording using the ADATs as 8/8 converters, around '96. Then it was burning CD's on it (back when CD blanks were $18 a piece!) Now it's soft synths...

 

But one of my pieces of hardware that I still needed -- my MIDI controller keyboard, an Alesis QS6, just decided to up and quit (after having a blank LCD display for many months which I worked around). And that brings me to the real frustration I felt with dedicated boxes -- while I can tear apart and put back together my computer all day long, I open up something like my QS6 or my Alesis Quadraverb 2 (which also needed repair a while back) and I'm totally lost.

[Valkyrie Sound]

Originally posted by Jeff Da Weasel:

I think the Sony CDRW66 might solve your problem as well.

 

By the way: did you actually talk to TASCAM and make sure they don't still have stock on CD-RW2000s? Let me know if you want me to make a call for ya.

 

- Jeff

I know Yamaha discountined all their CD recorders (stand alone) a long time ago.

 

I did have my guy at Sweetwater call Tascam and ask... none left.

 

I don't believe the Sony is being made either.

[Valkyrie Sound]

Originally posted by Mats Olsson.:

Have you thought of using a AES/EBU <-> S/Pdif converter and a Marantz CDR510 ?

Yeah... Tascam still makes one with similar I/O. The problem here is that I CAN hear a difference when going through one of those converter boxes. AND I'D STILL BE BUYING ANOTHER PRODUCT TO MAKE UP FOR THE SHORTCOMINGS OF ANOTHER PRODUCT.

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Valkyrie Sound]

Theblue1: Yeah... It seems as though everyone assumes all of us WANT to go 100% software. There are STILL functions that software just can't solve. Yes.... I can burn reference CDs with a computer... but I'd first have to record in realtime into the computer... then wait for it to bounce that recording to a file for burning ( in my case realtime again with PT), then you have to wait for the burn.

Total time for burn process= 2.5 hours

Patience of a performer ready to go home= 3 min.

 

Not all of us are doing "studio" recording. I've said for years that NO ONE makes gear for LIVE recording. Example: Studio mixers have better sound quality but less routing features.... "Live" mixers have more routing and usually compromise on sound quality

There are SO many features that get over looked when it comes to live recording. Here's a whole new segment of products that's being completely ignored or half-assed developed as a "bonus" to studio and live PA equipment.

 

I'm NOT a minority. There IS money to be made here. How often have we seen questions here on the forums from people who are looking to record their band's performances. We usually have to help them jury-rig a system to do it. This is silly! Why can't we get gear to make this easy?

Gawd... if I had the money to start my own company... someone call me for info on how to make money in semi-pro audio.

 

Valky

[fantasticsound]

I'm far from an expert in this regard, but here are a couple of thoughts on the subject.

 

I appreciate your desire for a stand-alone unit. Just being able to burn without tying up an entire computer, whether it's because the computer lacks the ram or for security against glitches in your burn, is rather silly. There is definitely a market for stand-alone burners that is being ignored.

 

Regarding the Masterlink.. When I worked at MARS, the Masterlink in the studio had an 8x burner. That was pre-2001. Even if the Masterlink comes with a 4x, can't you replace it with a faster drive? What does the unit support now? (And yes, I realize this is still an expensive alternative, made more expensive if you have to replace the burner yourself.)

 

But my most important question is if you can hear the difference in front end converters for semi-pro or consumer burners vs. your old unit with direct AES input, why not upgrade the ADAT's? ADAT's are hardly the best sounding or working digital format available. To complain about converters after the ADAT's seems, to me, a bit like putting the cart before the horse. Maybe it's time for you to find a better sounding solution that integrates burning into the tracking setup.

 

If you don't want to upgrade the entire system, it seems you've already made the best choice. Stick with the old stand-alone burner. The problem will eventually arise again when that burner fails beyond reasonable cost or ability to fix it.

[Valkyrie Sound]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

 

Regarding the Masterlink.. When I worked at MARS, the Masterlink in the studio had an 8x burner. That was pre-2001. Even if the Masterlink comes with a 4x, can't you replace it with a faster drive? What does the unit support now? (And yes, I realize this is still an expensive alternative, made more expensive if you have to replace the burner yourself.)

 

But my most important question is if you can hear the difference in front end converters for semi-pro or consumer burners vs. your old unit with direct AES input, why not upgrade the ADAT's? ADAT's are hardly the best sounding or working digital format available. To complain about converters after the ADAT's seems, to me, a bit like putting the cart before the horse. Maybe it's time for you to find a better sounding solution that integrates burning into the tracking setup.

As far as I know about the Masterlink... it still takes quite awhile to make an image and burn a red book CD. If anyone has more info... great.

 

Where'd you get the impression I'm using ADAT converters???

Oh HELL no!

 

What I have is a series of high end Panasonic WZ series converters with ADAT and AES outputs. I normaly send the AES to the CD burner and the ADAT to my multitrack. No extra splitting, mixing, converting, or anything else to get in the way of the sound.

I haven't found an "all in one" box that has enough DIGITAL inputs to meet my quality standards. They're all geared toward people recording "bands". I have very different needs recording orchestras.

 

Valky

[Duhduh]

Is AES your only I/O option?

[Valkyrie Sound]

Originally posted by Duhduh Reinhardt:

Is AES your only I/O option?

AES or ADAT off my Panasonic WZ converters.

[Duhduh]

Musicians Fiend has some CDRW2000 refurbs still in stock.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Valkyrie Sound:

As far as I know about the Masterlink... it still takes quite awhile to make an image and burn a red book CD. If anyone has more info... great.

 

Where'd you get the impression I'm using ADAT converters???

Oh HELL no!

 

What I have is a series of high end Panasonic WZ series converters with ADAT and AES outputs. I normaly send the AES to the CD burner and the ADAT to my multitrack. No extra splitting, mixing, converting, or anything else to get in the way of the sound.

I haven't found an "all in one" box that has enough DIGITAL inputs to meet my quality standards. They're all geared toward people recording "bands". I have very different needs recording orchestras.

 

Valky

It was several references to the ADAT lightpipe output that made me think you were actally recording to ADATs. My bad! (What are you using for multi-track?)

 

As for the all in one units, most of them offer the ability to add cards with ADAT, TASCAM, or other digital inputs and outputs. I hate to ask because I know you're so far from green in this area, but I will anyway. Have you checked to see what options are available in this regard from Yamaha, Akai, Korg and others? (I left out Roland because of the compressed format they've dug into with the VS line.) Is it a matter of not enough inputs, period, for recording orchestras? How do you typically record them? (Number of mics? Number of submixed inputs going to ___ number of tracks?

 

At least DuhDuh Reinhardt found you some Tascam stand-alone's if you still want one. Maybe you should buy a second for extended future use?

[russrags]

Hey Valkyrie,

 

Please let me know what you end up with. I've been asked to find a stand alone for a vocal teacher in Nashville. Same problem, one student's trying to get out the door while the next one comes in. I know the Masterlink is slow and a bit complicated for some people (not us, but definatly for the vocal teacher). I'm sorry to hear about HHB, I really like their stuff and I was going to check into that one on the high end.

 

Russ

http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-russragsdale

[spokenward]

Originally posted by Valkyrie Sound:

Maybe a Yamaha O1X... more flexibility.... I think... Oh.... wait.... I can't even find out what kind of I/O is included on their website or how it really works in stand alone mixer mode. ...

The 01X manuals are up. You can find them by following this link:

 

http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/

 

accepting the terms of use and searching for 01X under MODEL.

 

no AES of course.

 

I understand the feeling. It's like being fifteen minutes into the future. You understand what you need. Not everybody else does. And it is still not here.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Valkyrie Sound:

I don't believe the Sony is being made either.

Looks like it is, at least you can get one here:

 

http://www.zzounds.com/item--SNYCDRW66

[Zeke Smith.]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Valkyrie Sound:

I don't believe the Sony is being made either.

Looks like it is, at least you can get one here:

 

http://www.zzounds.com/item--SNYCDRW66

The Sony is a closeout, too. I have a guy at Zzounds' parent company, and I just got one of these out of their warehouse. They got about 14 of the last run from Sony, and that was two weeks ago. Now, I guess they're down to only a couple, and I know that there won't be any more after these.

[Groovepusher Sly]

I'm kinda in the same boat, or maybe we're all feeling the need for the next generation box.

In reply to an e-mail I sent today, Letter To Alesis Re: Masterlink , a tech guy at Alesis sent this reply:

 

Hello,

For your application, this Glyph set-up sounds great.

 

Robert C. Ray III

Supervisor - Alesis/Numark/Ion

Technical Support and Return Authorizations

200 Scenic View Dr.

Suite 201

Cumberland, RI 02864

rray@alesis.com

 

Phone 401-658-5760

Fax 401-658-3640

 

-Due to the high volume of email please include all

original messages when replying to this message.

 

Just thought you might be interested.

 

Sly

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

What a cool response. I don't know this guy (I think they're based in Rhode Island now), but it was cool of him to not automatically try and convince you to go with an Alesis solution.

 

- Jeff

[Groovepusher Sly]

I guess he realized they don't have one. But at least he took it upon himself to send a prompt reply. I appreciate that.

 

Sly

[Kendrix]

FWIW- Ive had the original HHB 800 CD-R burner with AES inputs for several years and never had a glitch.

Im surprised to hear of your failure rates with their other models.

What in the world are do you doing to torture these poor devices?

 

Are you saying that you can hear a difference when inputting SPDIF versus AES digitally?

I am surprised at that.

Do you hear the differnce during the transfer- or do you also hear it upon subsequent playback via the playback units internal clock. It seems possible that quality-of-clock issues coming thryu the interface might impact the sound during the transfer. However, I've been lead to believe that the data transer should be no problem. If so, subsequent playback should be OK.

[GY]

Marantz 620 or 610 mkII have AES in/out. I still use mine and wouldn't part with it. There's a 620 on eBay!