OT Rant; Post Malone- what's disappointing in todays music

[d halfnote]

As for Frampton's "talk box", I've heard only two others use the device (JOE WALSH; "Rocky Mountain Way"--'73; and RUFUS; "Tell Me Something Good"-- '74) both PRE Frampton's use on his '75 live album.

Whitefang

 

Also heard on Steely Dan's version of Ellington's 'East St Louis Toodle-oo' on the Pretzel Logic album, & Gilmour takes a talk box solo on one of the tracks (I forget which) on Animals. Jeff Beck had one on some British TV show, but I've never heard any recorded use of it from him.

 

Lemme help ya down memory lane, Scott, b/c I'm sure ya actually heard this...

JB on TV / She's A Woman

[video:youtube]

 

JB produced on record by Geo Martin / She's A Woman

[video:youtube]

 

It's not the tool; it's how ya use it.

[d halfnote]

...Interesting thing; as the lengthy quotes above will show, there is nothing in the entire article to really describe what he sounds like? ...

That's b/c most journalists have no skill at deescribing music.

Even those who regularly review music as a job mostly describe the lyrics, the general stylistic elements or something rather than what it sounds like.

[d halfnote]

I didn't read the article but I Youtubed him and I won't be doing it again LOL! He's not my cup of tea....... I wish him success though...

Not me--cats like that just get in the way of others who have some actual skills.

That's not said b/c I hate rap or hip hop; there are excellent examples of artists who are skilled & creative in that genre.

It's b/c the evidence I found is PMalone's just mediocre.

[Larryz]

@ d et al, I do try to appreciate new music but I have not been able to leave the past. Rap and I did not get along from the start and I still feel that way. So there is a lot of what others consider great music and art that will never find me in the audience. The shows put on by the Beatles and James Brown and pick-my-own-example back in the day were more about the music than the show IMHO.

 

 

I think todays shows with sexy women, nudity, fireworks, laser lights, fog, choreographed dancers, costumes, stage productions, etc. tend to put the music in second place. While those earlier examples put the music in 1st place...perhaps I'm lost in that pool of ingrained ideas.

 

I do try to give it all a chance now and then...I guess I just know what I like and within a few seconds of not knowing who PMalone is, I determined that it wasn't necessary. I still wish him luck though...

[d halfnote]

LarZ, I'm not tryna force anyone to like what they don't, just making the point that many get set in their ways & make decisions based on surface imagery or ideas that may blind them to the value of what they don't see/hear w/fresh eye's/ears.

 

As for...

... today's shows with sexy women, nudity, fireworks, laser lights, fog, choreographed dancers, costumes, stage productions, etc. tend to put the music in second place...

All due respect, but I think show-biz has almost always trumped art overall & that stuff's not really a new trail we're on.

[Larryz]

I agree d, show-biz has been around a long time. The last movie that I loved the sound track on was Pulp Fiction 1994 and prior to that The Blues Brothers 1980. The music is mostly 50's 60's 70's +/-. The last new tune I added to my set list was/is The Way by Fastball 1995.

 

I went to the theater and saw the Lion King live from the cartoon movie that came out in 1994. Prior to that the last musical I liked was Fiddler on the Roof and West Side Story. Great musicals! But, as you can see I haven't been on the new trail for quite some time...I can't stand new country while I still enjoy the old stuff, country rock, rockabilly, blue grass, etc. I know you are not out to change minds and understand that many of us are locked into what we like and get set in our ways. Just part of getting old, I'm guessing...

[Song80s]

I ag

I went to the theater and saw the Lion King live from the cartoon movie that came out in 1994. Prior to that the last musical I liked was Fiddler on the Roof and West Side Story. Great musicals! But, as you can see I haven't been on the new trail for quite some time...I can't stand new country while I still enjoy the old stuff, country rock, rockabilly, blue grass, etc. I know you are not out to change minds and understand that many of us are locked into what we like and get set in our ways. Just part of getting old, I'm guessing...

 

Going to take a slight left turn on the overall topic.

 

I find a huge amount of creativity in movie sound tracks . and the numerous made for Netflix/Amazon Prime/Showtime series stuff.

 

Dexter is a good example, which was a Showtime series. Lots of Sci Fi stuff has excellent music scores. Music for Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul is also really good IMO.

 

I enjoy arranging and appreciate orchestration. Mark Isham and James Newton Howard are examples of brilliant movie soundtrack composers.

 

This is a genre where I discover creativity. Back in the 60's/70's/80's I found creativity in many popular rock bands, musicians, etc. These are household names for us old timers.

 

I am not close minded to todays pop music. I simply do not hear much creativity.

Year after year after year. In contrast, I hear many excellent vocalists- but the songs

they are writing or being asked to sing,,,, well, often the same old 4 chords again.

 

And the music business industry has thrown many millions and studio resources

to support reproducing todays pop music. To my. mind, this is simply a business proposition not some idealistic creative band and song writing concept.

 

And Its not just rap, thats just a genre. I suppose if I was 12 or 15 yrs old I would find Post Malone creative. at that age, the young listener is naturally unaware of the preceding 4 decades of popular music.

 

But since I have decades of music listening a ' creative baseline ' is established. As a song writer, I dig into the structure of what makes a song tick. So my preferences mostly follow what I find creatively appealing or interesting.

 

 

[Larryz]

We all have our subjective reasons for what we like to spend our time listening to, when it comes to music. Most of the time pop music is not my thing. I did enjoy not only the show, but the performances by Michael Jackson. The latest thing (which I just left out and will include now is) that I enjoyed the 2014 duet when Tony Bennett teamed up with Lady Gaga doing some jazz standards going back to the 30's. I enjoy playing tunes from the 30'S and 40's. I think they did a great job together and Lady Gaga taught the world she could really sing, when she was removed from the pop music show productions...

 

I would think that listening to your music preferences from a song writer's perspective will not only bring you pleasure, but will increase your creativity as well...

[skipclone 1]

Just my opinion but, I am also a songwriter-I think the best creators are also the best audiences. An artist should know when to turn off the calculator and just enjoy an artistic work. If someone is taking me to school, I`m all for that too. Or if I set a piece aside for some homework or to do a cover-heck yeah. But if you`re that guy, that goes to a movie and talks about the plot all the way through it-don`t invite me to a movie.

[Larryz]

+1 Skip, talk about it after the movie (or any performance) not during...if I have taken the time to go and enjoy, I want to be able to hear it!

[d halfnote]

I suppose if I was 12 or 15 yrs old I would find Post Malone creative. at that age, the young listener is naturally unaware of the preceding 4 decades of popular music.

That's possible.

On the other hand, it's not so mucha question of age as awareness.

Even those who hear a significant amount of music may not have any real discernment of quality, even within whatever genres they enjoy.

[Song80s]

I suppose if I was 12 or 15 yrs old I would find Post Malone creative. at that age, the young listener is naturally unaware of the preceding 4 decades of popular music.

That's possible.

On the other hand, it's not so mucha question of age as awareness.

Even those who hear a significant amount of music may not have any real discernment of quality, even within whatever genres they enjoy.

 

I think I see your point. I will try an example I was thinking when I was 12 or 15, I had no interest in jazz.I had no appreciation of Miles Davis.

 

Back then, my grasp of rhythm and melody was elementary , as I was building a ' baseline ' of appreciation and understanding. Jazz was a strange foreign language when I was 12.

 

These days, Miles Davis is a God.

 

He didn't change for me. Its due to my growth, having decades of context and building my ' musical house '

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

I don't recall knowing anyone who expounded on Miles Davis and bebop when they were 12-15 years old. Just an example, might be flawed.

 

 

[d halfnote]

Hmmm, I see what yer saying but I was actually tryna point out that a great many ppl simply have little real cognizance of music.

They may like it in a general way or even some specific types but not really, sometimes, even know what they like abt it.

Additionally, most ppl who aren't directly musical are often a bit uncertain abt their possible skills or participation.

 

This may be an example of what I mean: The other night I was at a community dinner that included some choral entertainment.

One of the performers tried to get audience participation by leading some clapping.

He was quite regular in his own execution but many folks were less so.

Partly this was b/c ppl may be a bit off rhythmically but this was also, at least partly, b/c the guy was---for a reason I still can't figure--clapping on the 4 of 4/4.

[Think of a tune that has a strong up beat leading into the 1, such as "Dixie" (not the song in this case)]

 

Most ppl, even if they have an idea abt counting time, would be thinking in terms of a strong beat...so most ppl in this particular situation were uncertain abt their clapping & varied their timing.

I think it just seemed unnatural, even if they didn't really know why.

 

Even more oddly, in the next song he clapped on what would be the 2 or 4.

Why he did either I wanted to ask but he kinda disappeared afterwards & I didn't get the chance.

 

Now, I think these ppl enjoyed the singing & prolly their limited participation but I think they mostly responded to just the songs on the basis of the lyrics & maybe the tunes or harmonies or simply how the music made them feel but I doubt most of them thought much abt what was happening other than "I like/enjoy/tolerate this".

[skipclone 1]

Audiences in Asia still drive me to distraction by clapping on the 1 and 3-I`m told it`s because of traditions in folk music. I just let them have at it, any attempt to change it would go in one ear and out the other nostril.

[whitefang]

I suppose if I was 12 or 15 yrs old I would find Post Malone creative. at that age, the young listener is naturally unaware of the preceding 4 decades of popular music.

That's possible.

On the other hand, it's not so mucha question of age as awareness.

Even those who hear a significant amount of music may not have any real discernment of quality, even within whatever genres they enjoy.

 

I think I see your point. I will try an example I was thinking when I was 12 or 15, I had no interest in jazz.I had no appreciation of Miles Davis.

 

Back then, my grasp of rhythm and melody was elementary , as I was building a ' baseline ' of appreciation and understanding. Jazz was a strange foreign language when I was 12.

 

These days, Miles Davis is a God.

 

He didn't change for me. Its due to my growth, having decades of context and building my ' musical house '

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

I don't recall knowing anyone who expounded on Miles Davis and bebop when they were 12-15 years old. Just an example, might be flawed.

 

 

I can get both points, and too, I do know some who fit in the category d is forwarding. They seem to like ALL songs in some particular genre, BECAUSE it's in some particular genre, and despite how much the song actually sucks! I think we all know at least one like that.

 

And age( like d said also) isn't a factor. And example----

 

I liked jazz when a pre-adolescent, but not ALL forms, and certainly had NO idea who was who, and it's foundation was my Mom's old "big band" 78s. Same with classical music. ALWAYS "kind of" liked it(my favorite record as a kid was an old 78 of "Peter and The Wolf" narrated by Basil Rathbone) but it wasn't until I was in my late 20's that I got off my ass and started working at learning "who was who" and the difference in conductors, orchestras and those niggling little details. And the DEEPER I got into THAT, the deeper the MUSIC I started to appreciate became.

Whitefang

[d halfnote]

Audiences in Asia still drive me to distraction by clapping on the 1 and 3-I`m told it`s because of traditions in folk music. I just let them have at it, any attempt to change it would go in one ear and out the other nostril.

 

May I snort in derision ?

[Song80s]

Hmmm, I see what yer saying but I was actually tryna point out that a great many ppl simply have little real cognizance of music.

They may like it in a general way or even some specific types but not really, sometimes, even know what they like abt it.

Additionally, most ppl who aren't directly musical are often a bit uncertain abt their possible skills or participation.

 

This may be an example of what I mean: The other night I was at a community dinner that included some choral entertainment.

One of the performers tried to get audience participation by leading some clapping.

He was quite regular in his own execution but many folks were less so.

Partly this was b/c ppl may be a bit off rhythmically but this was also, at least partly, b/c the guy was---for a reason I still can't figure--clapping on the 4 of 4/4.

[Think of a tune that has a strong up beat leading into the 1, such as "Dixie" (not the song in this case)]

 

Most ppl, even if they have an idea abt counting time, would be thinking in terms of a strong beat...so most ppl in this particular situation were uncertain abt their clapping & varied their timing.

I think it just seemed unnatural, even if they didn't really know why.

 

Even more oddly, in the next song he clapped on what would be the 2 or 4.

Why he did either I wanted to ask but he kinda disappeared afterwards & I didn't get the chance.

 

Now, I think these ppl enjoyed the singing & prolly their limited participation but I think they mostly responded to just the songs on the basis of the lyrics & maybe the tunes or harmonies or simply how the music made them feel but I doubt most of them thought much abt what was happening other than "I like/enjoy/tolerate this".

 

I was referring to musicians. I believe you were referring to listeners. You are completely

on target with listeners.

 

I have a few songs with claps on beat 2 and beat 4. I also noticed the listeners take a while to catch that. They have to work their listening ability to 'isolate ' on a different accent.

[d halfnote]

I think what's relevant here is that abt all fans of PMalone (to stick w/him as an example of non-compos mentis pop adulation) are, I suspect, not musicians & maybe not even listeners but hearers, if you catch the diff.

[Scott Fraser]

Since some time around the 1930s the rhythmic emphasis in Western popular music has been on the backbeat, the 2 & 4. Before that it was on the 1 & 3. That's pretty basic, in spite of all the young mixers making the kick drum the loudest instrument in the mix.

[Song80s]

Since some time around the 1930s the rhythmic emphasis in Western popular music has been on the backbeat, the 2 & 4. Before that it was on the 1 & 3. That's pretty basic, in spite of all the young mixers making the kick drum the loudest instrument in the mix.

 

Extending on this, I was considering the emphasis on louder rhythm- to me this is drums + bass. I program drum beats and play bass on my Korg Kronos.

 

Since I have been recording originals for 2 years, I have reconsidered my volume and mix approach on my rhythm section. All my stuff is instrumental, retro 80's hybrid genres. Bordering on movie soundtrack with its orchestration.

 

When i began, lets say year 1 , drum + bass sat in the pocket , while melody and chords got more attention, were the musical theme.

 

These days, drums + bass are the loudest in the mix. My material has gotten more

aggressive vs MOR ( middle of the road].

 

Discussed this preference with my UK music friends. They state loud drums + bass in a song is a US preference, with their country artists also showing the same recording preference.

 

This is more than the kick drum or the snare being the loudest. I am aware that 80's progressive rock and 90's rock having overly loud snare drum in many songs.

Which I found to be annoying, as it was twice as loud vs anything else.

 

Many of my listeners play music while in the car. Many want to ' feel ' the beat.

I think this is primal- and many prefer the physical sensation of rhythm.

 

I can relate that there is a abundance of road noise in a car- loud rhythm punches

through much more vs piano chords, for example.

 

As a practical matter, I like louder rhythm sections and I do my best to make it more

interesting/diverse in every song. Plus I am all over the map on BPM, anywhere from 70 to 120.

 

All this might be about song writing preference, too.

 

[d halfnote]

Since some time around the 1930s the rhythmic emphasis in Western popular music has been on the backbeat, the 2 & 4. Before that it was on the 1 & 3. That's pretty basic, in spite of all the young mixers making the kick drum the loudest instrument in the mix.

 

Extending on this, I was considering the emphasis on louder rhythm- to me this is drums + bass. I program drum beats and play bass on my Korg Kronos.

 

Since I have been recording originals for 2 years, I have reconsidered my volume and mix approach on my rhythm section. All my stuff is instrumental, retro 80's hybrid genres. Bordering on movie soundtrack with its orchestration.

 

When i began, lets say year 1 , drum + bass sat in the pocket , while melody and chords got more attention, were the musical theme.

 

These days, drums + bass are the loudest in the mix. My material has gotten more

aggressive vs MOR ( middle of the road].

 

Discussed this preference with my UK music friends. They state loud drums + bass in a song is a US preference, with their country artists also showing the same recording preference.

 

This is more than the kick drum or the snare being the loudest. I am aware that 80's progressive rock and 90's rock having overly loud snare drum in many songs.

Which I found to be annoying, as it was twice as loud vs anything else.

 

Many of my listeners play music while in the car. Many want to ' feel ' the beat.

I think this is primal- and many prefer the physical sensation of rhythm.

 

I can relate that there is a abundance of road noise in a car- loud rhythm punches

through much more vs piano chords, for example.

 

As a practical matter, I like louder rhythm sections and I do my best to make it more

interesting/diverse in every song. Plus I am all over the map on BPM, anywhere from 70 to 120.

 

All this might be about song writing preference, too.

Re Scott's comment, that's true but the most usual count anytime or any place is the 1, defining the phrase.

 

Per the relative loudness of instruments, the snare's actually the loudest drum usually, w/ the kick being felt almost as much as heard.

All that aside,the most realistic approach is to make each instrument a bit variable not just for emphasis but to add a generally unnoticed but psychologically effective touch of authenticity & musical performance realism.

 

[skipclone 1]

To my ears, Stewart Copeland really set the mark for snare as front and center.

More to say but, meeting some friends for Thanksgiving. Have a fine day.

[whitefang]

Actually, it sounded more like RIM SHOT to me.

 

And yeah, had a fine day, thanks.

Whitefang

[d halfnote]

To my ears, Stewart Copeland really set the mark for snare as front and center.

Here hear yer front & center snare, courtesy of drumbo Brian Keenan.

Just don't get ensnared by the double entendre holiday music that shows up just past the 5:30 mark

[video:youtube]

More to say but, meeting some friends for Thanksgiving. Have a fine day.

We await yer further response....